Is Coleman Litigating For Franken Votes?
The Coleman campaign appears to have found a genuine example of a particular type of absentee ballot being treated differently throughout the state, in their central claim of Equal Protection -- but it seems like they're effectively fishing for votes for Al Franken.
Coleman lawyer Joe Friedberg has been looking into a category that has come to be known as "3-A" ballots, where a newly-registering voter put their registration form inside the secrecy envelope containing the ballot, rather than immediately within the outer return envelope as they were supposed to. Many local officials now believe those should be counted.
The problem is in figuring out how to identify them. It would involve opening up the secrecy envelope, remaining blind to the actual vote inside, and feeling for that extra card. As it turns out, Anoka County elections manager Rachel Smith said her county had been doing just that. Other county officials have said they didn't do this, though it may have occurred here and there.
Coleman attorney/spokesman Ben Ginsberg played this up at a lunch-time press conference. "So there is a difference between counties," Ginsberg said. "It allowed more votes to be counted in Anoka than potentially those other two counties [Ramsey and Washington]."
Now let's look at that math. Anoka County, which has actively counted 3-A's, went for Coleman 46%-37%. Ramsey County, which is both bigger than Anoka and didn't actively count 3-A's, went for Al 52%-34%. Washington County went 47%-37% for Norm, but had just under half the total votes of Ramsey. So Anoka's 3-A's have been mostly counted, while remaining stacks could on balance be from pro-Franken areas.
Furthermore, Franken won the overall absentee ballots by an estimated 8-10 points. And remember that newly-registered voters are in many cases first-time voters, a group that went for Franken by 52%-34%.
If every last remaining 3-A ballot is found and opened, they might just boost Franken. And yet pursuing the 3-A's is now exactly what Coleman is doing. Counting them would probably be a simple task -- but the litigating over it is certainly taking a long time.
(Ginsberg presser c/o The Uptake.)
Josh
Elana
Matt
Eric
We need Franken.
Nelson-Collins want to cut Food Stamps from the bill. Food stamps are THE most effective stimulus.
Call your Senators NOW and tell them NOT to support the Nelson-Collins Amendment. Tell them to support all low income, disability, and unemployment provisions. Please!
Here’s the number for the Capitol operator: 202-224-3121
Ask them to connect you to your Senators. Do it!
February 6, 2009 2:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Very good point. Thanks for getting this info out.
And I agree that you can't get a much more direct stimulus than food stamps -- money goes out from Gov't and is immediately spent in stores. And it helps feed people who are barely making it. Win-win.
February 6, 2009 4:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's what Al would be fighting for.
February 6, 2009 2:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why does franken have this big fan base? Just curious.
February 6, 2009 2:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
He understands people who work for a living. He supports unions. He supports renewable energy in MN and the Nation as a whole. He fights for those that don't have a voice- low income, seniors, disabled. He has great ideas- banning the Senate from lobbying. He's wrote several awesome fact filled books that stuck it to the Republicans. He's one of a very select few Dems that have continually fact checked Republicans over the last decade plus. He's a Progressive- so if you like them, you should really like Franken. If you're a centrist then you probably don't.
February 6, 2009 2:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
I get the books, which were probably written with the help of a ghost writer in any event. Is that it his books, lying liars and such? Anything other than the books?
February 6, 2009 2:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why do you think a guy that made his living as a writer had a ghost writer for his books?
February 6, 2009 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just speculating, see below. I guess that hit a nerve. It's a big difference writing a book vs writing a short comedy piece.
February 6, 2009 3:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
I pretty sure Bob Hopes sketch writers weren't Harvard graduates. I'd say you and your objection seem to be out shopping for facts.
February 6, 2009 3:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's not speculation, that's uneducated presumption.
February 9, 2009 9:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
Incidentally, how has he "fought" for the little guy allegedly? What has he done?
February 6, 2009 2:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
He campaigned for the little guy. I believe him.
February 6, 2009 2:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Think Wellstone (one of Al's best friends)- that's the legacy Al will try to live up to.
February 6, 2009 2:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why does Franken have a fan club among liberals?
1. He's been an outspoken progressive for decades.
2. He used his show to stand up wing nuts.
3. He's stood up to Bush and the horrible practices of this administration.
4. He wrote "Rush Limbaugh Is a Big Fat Idiot."
5. He wrote "Lies and the Lying Liars", the best-selling political flamethrower from a liberal perspective which, unlike Coulter and O'Reilly" is actuall based on facts.
6. He beat one of the slimiest repugs in the Senate--with little support from the Washington party.
You claim that his books were probably ghost written. On what do you base this? Franken is a freaking writer by profession for the last 35 years. He's a Harvard grad, not some trumped up radio host who can't write their own freaking grocery list.
You've posted previously that you don't like Franken. Based on your "duhh" question, it seems like you don't even know a damn thing about the guy.
February 6, 2009 2:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071105/nichols
February 6, 2009 2:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not to beat a dead horse, but I guess I like to be contrarian sometimes.
1. Really? I didn't hear squat about him for decades. I know about the books and he had a radio show. Lush and insanity and orally have a radio show and "write" books, should they be in the senate? I don't think so.
2. That's nice, so did rachel maddow and that woman from new york who I like and can't remember her name. So, does that mean they should be in the senate?
3. Orally, ok, so?
4. He wrote Rush is a big fat Idiot? That title should get him bonged from the senate. Kind of immature don't ya think.
5. Yep, I've heard of the book and saw him on tv when he was doing the book tour. He really gave an awful interview from what I recall.
6. Just barely, when he should have crushed coleman in a dem year. But he had all that progressive support, right? You have to admit that his campaign wasn't that good and that he limped along, which is troubling to say the least.
Just speculating on the ghost writing. It's not easy to write a book, especially for the first time. I know that he is a comedy writer and wrote little pieces, writing a whole book is a whole other ballgame. Nonetheless, it's possible that it wasn't ghost written and I have no doubt that franken is smart. You have to be smart to be a decent comedian.
I don't think that I ever said that I don't like him. I think that I said that I was unimpressed and that basically the jury was out as far as I was concerned. I really wasn't hot about having a stand up comedian in the senate with all the baggage associated with that. Some of the franken clips are pretty bad from a political standpoint.
Nonetheless, I am willing to give him a shot to see what he does. I could be wrong. My point I guess is that I am not waiting with baited breath for him to get to the senate and oh my gosh, until he is there everything is at a screeching halt. There are much greater problems at hand beyond franken's situation.
February 6, 2009 2:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
You say you haven't heard anything from Franken for decades. So Franken should be blamed because you're uninformed?
Comparing Franken to Rachel Maddow is--what's the word--STUPID! Because Franken ran for the Senate and WON!
FYI, being a good candidate is tough. This was Franken's first and the fact that he beat an incumbent is laudable. By the time you saw Obama, he had run for office six times. It gets easier and better as you go along.
You criticize Franken because all he's done is "talk." Well, going to the Senate is a chance for him to turn words into action, don't you think?
If you'd read Franken's books, you'd know that he wrote them. His SNL voice is all through them. Besides being funny as hell, they are extremely well-researched and the thesis holds together.
Re: writing a first book. NOTE: Dreams from My Father; To Kill A Mockingbird; Catcher In The Rye. All first books. All great books. Obama, Salinger, Lee didn't even have a history of writing comedy behind them when they penned them. So the notion that Franken can't write a book because he'd never written one is absurd.
February 6, 2009 3:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Other than the maddow blast, I pretty much agree with the bulk of your comments. He barely won when coleman should have been crushed. I am not impressed with his victory at all. Sorry. Also, I am completely unimpressed with the stand up and don't understand the worship bs about the guy. However, it is what it is. I have said this a thousand times, easily, that I am willing to give him a chance and let's see what he can do. The fact that I don't worship the guy, doesn't mean that I don't like him or won't give him a chance. However, I am willing to bet that he will be a waste of time in the senate and accomplish zippo. He's not a politician, he is a stand-up comic with a tude. Whoopie!
February 6, 2009 8:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
PEOPLE, do yo not know this is a Repub plant?
No one is this stupid\contrary without financial incentive. The ghost writer allegation is the tip off, no facts, no basis whatsoever so he tosses it out as "Well, someone said once that I heard somebody else say..". You are probably dealing with PSYOPS. Don't feed the troll. He gets the books but does not know the name of the book or why they make Al qualified?? And then when he is caught for not having any facts, he claims he "hit a nerve" in other words, the problem is not his lack of veracity, it is yours for getting irate, not his for lying......that is a plant, that does not need to be fed.
February 7, 2009 10:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oh yeah, I'm a republican plant. That's hilarious. Just because I am not enamoured by the stand up makes me a republican plant. That is hilarious. Thanks for the laugh.
Here this will get you going, I view the stand up kind of like I view cooter in many ways. His career was tanking and he needed to make cash, so what does he do? He writes a book and then goes on air america, at the time that reached 10 households or so in order to get cash from the left. Puleeeez. I love it a republican plant too funny.
February 7, 2009 12:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
No. You're out to lunch here. Michael A is not a republican plant. He's been here for forever and is a Democrat through and thorugh. He's just uniformed and negative regarding Franken.
You're one of those posters who dives in and starts throwing around words like "troll" against anyone who is contrarian.
February 7, 2009 12:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Michael A, your assertion that people are "worshiping" Franken is a straw man argument. There's no worship here, just a lot of people anxious to get another progressive voice in the Senate since we could sure use his vote. There are also a lot of people who respect Franken because he's very well-informed on the issues and has stood up to the right-wing when others were afraid to say anything.
My Maddow crack was not a crack at her but rather at you. You asked "does Rachel Maddow deserve to be in the Senate, too"? My response is "if she had won an election she would have deserved it." Nobody is saying Franken deserves to be in the Senate because he's a progressive comedian. We're saying he deserves to be in the Senate because he won the fucking election.
And who gives a fuck if you're impressed with Franken's victory or not? You seem to forget that Franken was in a 3-way race. Had that not been the case, he probably would have beat Coleman by 5-7 points. But that's irrelevant. He won. If he was in the Senate, we wouldn't have to be sucking up to Arlen Spector for a freaking vote. But, I guess that doesn't matter to you because you're "not impressed" with his victory.
February 7, 2009 12:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
I hate the "worship" straw man, that's what all the Republicans say about Obama.
"I didn't hear squat about him for decades. I know about the books and he had a radio show."
That doesn't add up. Franken's second stint on SNL ended in 1995. The Limbaugh book came out in 1996. "Lying Liars" came out in 2003 and "The Truth" in 2006. All were NYT #1 bestsellers. His Air America show was 2004-2007. If you knew about the books and the radio show, what decades are you talking about?
February 9, 2009 9:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Interesting you say you've "heard of" his books. I've read 2 and they're great fun in addition to being extremely well fact-checked (and I'm a researcher and very very picky about such things). I don't think there's any doubt about his writing them -- if you've ever listened to him on radio or on the Letterman show, he talks the way he writes.
And he's a bright guy. And a decent human being.
The point is not whether Franken's as qualified as Ted Kennedy who's been a superb Senator for decades, but whether he's more qualified and represents progressive issues better than Coleman. And about that, there is no doubt.
In addition, Coleman's legal problems are just an fraction of an inch below the surface. He did some pretty scummy and unethical things as part of his campaigns.
February 6, 2009 4:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Did you read my comment? Go check out the Star Trib if you want more info on Franken.
February 6, 2009 2:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nah, I'm just trying to understand all this glory heaped on the guy. In my book, words are cheap, it's actions that count. Anybody can talk a good game. Unfortunately, the stand-up is severly lacking in the talking part. His speeches and pressers and debate performances were pretty lousy in my opinion.
I don't know, I guess we will see. Maybe I'm wrong and he will be great in the senate. I just don't see it based on his past performance. The jury is out at this point, literally. I just can't get all hot and bothered over the guy with absolutely no track record other than some words on a page. Doesn't impress me.
February 6, 2009 2:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's not as if the Senate needs another comedian. Those R's are a pretty funny bunch all on their own.
February 6, 2009 2:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, and you don't live in under-represented MN either. Right? Guess what? I do.
February 6, 2009 2:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're points about talking a good game? Laughable. People were saying the same about Obama. His books shows he knows the issues, and a good deal of policy, inside and out. More than I can say for quite a few Senators.
The less career politicians in the Senate- the better.
February 6, 2009 2:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes they were saying that and it was bull. I didn't care about his books, nor did I read them. I was impressed with what he did, his intelligence, how he presented himself, how he ran his campaign, etc. Basically, I was impressed with obama's actions.
That's completely different from the franken situation.
February 6, 2009 2:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Franken helped get helmet liners for poorly equipped U.S. troops to prevent traumatic brain injury:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uYrT9TDy9A&fmt=18
- FTF
February 6, 2009 3:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actions are certainly louder than words. But sometimes words ARE actions.
Al Franken began publicly speaking out against Rush Limbaugh, the Bush administration and republican idiocy at a time when it was risky and rare to do so. He was one of the few voices that were ranged against the established media and right-wing machine before Katrina - before it finally became conventional wisdom that the bush administration was both criminal and a failure.
He went on Air America while the media mocked it and I listened to his show (and others on Air America)-- at the time there was no Keith Olbermann or anyone else for that matter that was speaking truth to power. He was well-informed on his show - it was clear he did the homework. He took on Bill O'Reilly when that blowhard was bragging about his high ratings and pontificating about how liberals would never make it on TV or Radio.
He showed a lot more courage than most of the Democrats currently holding Senate seats.
February 6, 2009 3:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh,well said!
February 6, 2009 4:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm afraid your posturing as a reasonable skeptic is revealed as disengenous by statements like:
“… it's possible that it wasn't ghost written.”
Please, the rules of reasonable argument aren’t suspended by claims of a contrary nature. You can’t dismiss the preponderance of evidence based on a conviction that “books are really hard to write”. Even a cheap shot artist like Rush wouldn’t have assumed there was a lie only to suggest the “possibility” of a truth.
February 6, 2009 4:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, Al Franken doesn't impress you. Without seeking publicity, Al spent his own time and money working---not just satiriZing---for the worthy cause of helping alcoholics and drug addicts into recovery programs and treatment. He has written on this topic and made a movie about it. Again, before being involved so actively in electoral politics, he devoted time, money, and energy to trying to combat red-lining and other discriminatory practices of financial institutions.
Al Franken's more recent activities are neatly summed up by MrSmith 1's post, below.
You did not have the chance, I guess, to hear Al Franken on the campaign trail in Minnesota, speaking at length and without notes about all kinds of public policy questions; answering direct questions from voters with thoughtful and well-informed responses---and being told by one after another average citizen how much his courage and his voice have meant to us as a beacon in the dismal nightmare years of Bush/Cheney/Rove.
If you actually read his political books (Limbaugh, Lies, Truth), you'll learn a few things. And laugh, in spite of your obvious prejudice against Mr. Franken.
Al Franken doesn't impress you. You think some other Dem could have beaten Coleman, or even come close? Hogwash. I live in Minnesota. No other viable candidate stepped forth. Al is not a professional politician; his campaign made some mistakes; he was the target of the nastiest smear campaign in Minnesota in 90 years--so I think he did great! Otherwise, look at Maine, where Obama waxed McCain and the GOP Senator was re-elected. That was the script for Minnesota--without Al Franken.
This man could have piled up money in Hollywood and never looked at the world around him; he could have sat on the sidelines, writing and talking about politics if he felt like sounding off---he didn't have to step into the arena and make himself the target of virulent vituperation and hysterical hostility . . . or of uninformed cynical critics like you . . . and please give us a little of YOUR resume, so we can decide whether to be impressed, for our part.
Your evident dislike of Franken, much as I regret it, is a widely-enough expressed attitude among people who should know better, and that's why it deserves an answer . . . not to change YOUR mind, but perhaps that of other viewers.
February 6, 2009 10:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you for shedding a little light for Michael A. The more he slams Franken, the more he reveals how utterly ignorant he is. Yet, he's not even embarrassed. Oh, well.
February 7, 2009 12:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for the comment above. I guess that I am just an ignorant fool and am not entitled to an opinion. Oh, well, that's america for you.
February 7, 2009 1:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts, i.e, Franken didn't write his own books; Franken wasn't around for decades; Franken's career was in the toilet so he went on Air America; Franken hasn't done anything but talk.
February 7, 2009 1:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Because he's good enough, he's smart enough, and gosh-darnit, people like him.
February 6, 2009 2:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Which is, of course, the whole point of this exercise. Even Coleman knows he's going to lose in the end.
February 6, 2009 2:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why does Franken have a fan club among liberals?
To use his own words:
"I'm the only New York Jew in this (Minnesota Senate) race who actually grew up in Minnesota."
February 6, 2009 2:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why does Franken have a fan club among liberals?
To use Al's own words:
"I'm the only NY Jew in this (MN Senate Race) who actually grew up in Minnesota."
February 6, 2009 2:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
On his Air America radio show, Franken proved day in and day out that he was capable of informing himself on an issue and going toe to toe with any guest on detailed policy questions. I'll take that over some hack politician who can memorize talking points any day.
February 6, 2009 3:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Action rather than words? How about the numerous visits Al Franken has made to Iraq to entertain the troops? He didn't just talk about supporting the troops, like a lot of the right-wing blowhards, he actually went to Iraq and gave a lot of time and effort to entertaining our troops, not once, but numerous times.
I like Al Franken because 1) he was, for a long time, the lone voice fighting back against the neo-cons, articulating the progressive agenda, while a lot of pols were cowed by the neo-con full court press, and 2) he stands up for what he believes and 3) when push came to shove and he could have just sat back and continued to be a well-compensated gadfly, he chose instead to take action and run for political office.
February 6, 2009 9:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
agree with everything said in support of franken.
would like to add one very obvious reason why there would be a lot support for franken here at TPM: joshua micah marshall was a regular guest on the al franken show. josh and al are friends and have quite a bit in common in how they see politics and policy.
i for one became a fan of josh and tpm in large part as a result of al franken.
February 6, 2009 11:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey concern troll: there was never been any doubt about who wrote Al Franken's books; it was Al Franken. But do you know who actually did have their book(s) ghost written because he simply weren't intelligent enough to write one by himself?
That would be the guy you voted for for President, John McCain...
February 7, 2009 11:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not a "concern troll." I was curious and expected information concerning the stand-up's fan club. Instead all I got pretty much was insults and invective. Sometime "progressive"'s are so republican.
February 7, 2009 12:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're so full of shit! You did not just get insults and invective. There are literally a dozen posts here that detail many, many things about Franken that you obviously didn't know.
You refuse to acknowledge them or that you were unaware of Franken's background as persistent foil to the right, a serious thinker, a man who has used his own money to support progressive causes and a man who writes his own books.
You ignore that and continue to insult him as the "stand-up." You add to the insult with your ridiculous claims that we "worship" Franken. You sound like those idiotic wingers who belittle Obama by calling him "the Messiah" and accuse his supporters of being kool-aid drinkers.
But I've noticed you're not one to admit you were making shit up even when called on it. You claimed that Obama kicked Jesse Jackson, Jr. to the curb after NH. When I proved that Jackson continued to be a prominent surrogate for Obama by campaigning for him and appearaning on all the morning shows during the convention you then said "well, that doesn't count because everyone was expecting him to be out there during the convention!
It's one thing to say you'd rather someone else beat Coleman. It's quite another to continue with your Franken doesn't deserve to be in the senate because he's "just a stand up." Give it a rest.
February 7, 2009 1:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Last one, because I really don't care about this issue at all. The bulk of what I have seen are peoples opinions concerning what franken allegedly did, combined with me being an ignorant fool because I am not on board the band wagon. I believe that you are blurring opinion with facts. I have my opinion and people have theirs, big deal.
After everyone got bent out of shape on the ghost writing thing, I backed off as I had no evidence to support it. It was total speculation and I admitted it and yet people kept piling on on that non-issue.
I really don't want to go over the jackson jr thing again. I disagree with you. We agree to disagree. Again, not really important.
I actually do wish someone else beat coleman, because he was ripe to be crushed. I disagree that those other voters for the third party candidate would have gone to franken. I actually think that many would have gone to coleman and franken might have lost. He was polling very poorly before the election and many thought that he would lose. In the end he did win, kudos to him. I did not say that he doesn't deserve to be in the senate because he is just a stand up. That was not the point.
I will give it a rest. As I have said a thousand times at least, lets see what he does in the senate when he gets there. Time will tell and we shall see. On the stand up label, he was a stand up. Obama was not the messiah, nor did I perceive him to be one. Big deal again.
February 7, 2009 1:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Franken was a comic writer and entertainer. He rarely did stand-up. Your use of that term is an attempt to denigrade him. Why on earth a Democrat would go out of his way to trash the newly-elected Democratic senator is awful.
Yes, accusing Franken of using a ghost writer struck a chord with a lot of people here because (a) they'd read his books and knew that he wrote them; and (b) your attempts to besmirch his integrity w/o any evidence crossed the line.
About Jesse, Jr. You say we disagree. There's nothing to disagree about. YOU WERE WRONG. PERIOD. Jackson did many DOCUMENTED campaign events and appeared on TV as an Obama surrogate dozens of times post-NH.
That's not subject to an opinion. You were wrong. Saying "we disagree" is like saying "you say there are 100 senate seats; I say there are 80. We just disagree."
When you're slapped with the facts you then resort to "I really don't care". What grade are you?
OK. Done. Until the next time you post your "Franken is just a stand-up who hasn't done anything other than run for the Senate" bullshit.
February 7, 2009 1:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
I guess that I am in second grade.
You were WRONG PERIOD ABOUT JACKSON JR!!!!! Do the exclamation points make it more accurate. We went round and round on that. He was totally sidelined after his gaffes after new hampshire. I don't know why you don't see that. You cited a few appearances. He did ten times more appearances pre-super tuesday than the handful you found between super-tuesday and the convention. Oh, and he is up for a high up position in the obama administration after the illinois senate fiasco, yep.
What facts? There aren't many. Fact, he won the race by 225 votes at this point. Also, another fact is that he entertained the troops in iraq, which I forgot about and is commendable. How did he entertain the troops in iraq by the way? He did stand up, oh no. He wrote two books. He was on air america radio. Other than those facts that have been presented, everything else is pretty much opinion. People have theirs and I have mine. Obviously, the people who commented won't be swayed by my opinion and I am not swayed by theirs.
I can't wait until he is in the senate and see what he does. That will be interesting. Alot of expectations there.
February 7, 2009 2:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
1. How can someone be sidelined and in the game at the same time? You said that Jackson was completely shut out after NH. When I listed at least a dozen post-NH surrogate appearances, you said "well, he didn't do as many as he had done."
LAME. BUSTED. WRONG.
2. Jackson is a US Congressman who wants to be a Senator. He has never wanted to to be in the Obama administration. And, do your homework. (Now, that's a novel idea.) Despite the initial rumor by the Sun Times to the contrary, Jackson was one of the names Obama's team gave Blago as a suitable replacement for him in the Senate. Yeah, he really, really shut him out, didn't he?
3. Most people here understand that Franken will be 100th in seniority. We don't expect him to be the next Daniel Webster or Ted Kennedy his first year. We do expect that he will be a reliable Democratic vote. In that aspect, I'm quite sure he will live up to our expectations.
February 7, 2009 2:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know why I keep coming back.
1. I never said that jackson was completely shut out after NH. I said that he was sidelined after his gaffes after new hampshire. I do not interpret sidelined as being completely shut out. If you do, then that was not my intent. I interpret being sidelined as being able to sub in every once in a while. I didn't say he was cut from the team. He did a dozen or more appearances in one week before new hampshire, and sometimes in one freaking day, and he does a dozen between february and august. You don't see a difference?
2. So? He will never get elected to the senate from illinois. Bet you a lunch.
3. I absolutely agree that he probably will be a reliable dem vote and expect that. The fact that he is a reliable dem vote is not one thing said by anybody about what they expect franken to do in the senate. They expect webster or kennedy in his first year, which obviously is impossible. Read the comments up the thread.
February 7, 2009 3:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, please! You should have stopped yesterday when your arguments were only silly. Now, they're downright retarded!
Any Democrat from MN is likely to be a reliable Democratic vote so it wasn't mentioned probably because we didn't realize we needed to state the obvious. Mistake. I see we had to spell it out for YOU.
You asked why Franken has so many liberal fans. People told you why (besides him being a liberal) they like the guy. They listed his books, his dedication to progressive causes and some things he'd done. Nobody, absolutely nobody said he'd be Daniel Webster. (Another straw man argument.) They pointed out that he's not a lightweight and is well-versed on the issues.
Now, to Jesse Jackson. (1) We agree that he probably won't get to be a Senator. But, pray tell, what on earth does that have to do with Obama? He was unfairly maligned in this Blago mess.
2. Do some homework. Or use a little common sense. Different surrogates are used at different times during the campaign. They are rotated. For weeks, McCaskill was all over the tubes for Obama, then she'd disappear for a while. Gov. Doyle of WI did the same thing. Weeks on 2-3 times a day, then off for months. That's the same thing that happened with Jackson, Jr.
These people do have other jobs you know. Being an Obama surrogate couldn't be their only job.
Also, Obama tried to use surrogates to appeal to the demographic he was trying to woo. By March, the African American vote was solidly behind Obama so Jesse, Jr. wasn't nearly as valuable as McCaskill and Sebelius.
February 7, 2009 4:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
"After everyone got bent out of shape on the ghost writing thing, I backed off as I had no evidence to support it. It was total speculation and I admitted it and yet people kept piling on on that non-issue."
Bullshit. You ended up with "Nonetheless, it's possible that it wasn't ghost written...."
Also bullshit to start out with "Just curious" and then spend all of your time ignoring facts presented and denigrating the opinions expressed, which you were soliciting.
February 9, 2009 9:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, I'm retarded. What will be the next insult?
If the goal was to get a reliable dem vote, there were probably a thousand more qualified and better candidates than the stand up comedian in minnesota. He will become the poster child for more absurdity from republicans. The goal was a reliable dem vote???? You are moving the goal posts.
I listed the facts two posts up. The rest is opinion. I didn't see any facts to support the assertions about "his dedication to progressive causes" and crap like that. It's basically crap as far as I can tell. Zero facts.
I referred to webster because you did. What are you talking about a strawman argument. Don't you remember that you referred to webster?
I never said that he was a light weight. I did see the "well versed on issues" opinion and conclusion. So what?
I don't understand the obama reference. So what?
Uh, you are totally wrong on the surrogates. Mccaskill was all over the tube since she endorsed. She was a good surrogate, smart and stayed on message. Junior was sidelined, plain and simple because he became a lightening rod, didn't stay on message and said stupid things. What's the big deal?
Now, on the other hand, you may have a point on the african-american vote issue. I hate to give you an out, but you may be right on that one. Now that argument makes sense. First time that you made that one and it does make sense to be quite frank. There are you happy? I still think that they got him off the screen for the reasons that I mentioned though. If they needed more help with the african-american voter, I am willing to bet that they would have got a different surrogate. Junior was to much of a lightening rod and couldn't control his mouth.
February 7, 2009 4:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
I didn't say you were retareded. I said your arguments are retarded. They are.
I mentioned Daniel Webster only to say that we don't expect Franken to be Daniel Webster. Then you countered with "they expect Webster or Kennedy the first year" which is such a bogus claim. Nobody even romotely said anything like that. That's just plain retarded. Arguing against a straw man.
>>He will become the poster child for more absurdity from republicans>>
Why? Because he was an entertainer? This is the party that gave us The Terminator, The Gipper, Gofer from the Loveboat, Sonny Bono and Fred "clears his throat a thousand times in one speech" Thompson!
I'm sick of people like you pissing yourself because you're afraid of the repugs might think and say. Franken should be judged on his performance as a senator, not on his prior career.
You seem to expect Franken to have this long list of legislative accomplishments despite having never served in public office.
Next, There were weeks when McCaskill wasn't on the tubes for Obama at all. Same thing with several others, including Jackson. You admitted that you don't like Jackson and went on to claim that he was "completely sidelined." He was not. As is demonstrated.
Saying he didn't appear as much proves he was sidelined is silly. When you're sidelined, they don't give you a reduced schedule. Samantha Power and Wesley Clark were sidelined and *never* appeared for Obama again. Ever.
To further malign Jackson without any evidence (like you tried to with Franken) you said he's not in the Obama administration--as if that itself is proof of something. You totally ignored the fact that Jackson never wanted or intended to be in the administration.
Next, you say he'll never be senator--as if this is someone Obama's doing--completely ignorning the fact that Obama put his name forward to fill his seat.
February 7, 2009 6:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I guess I am a masochist.
1. If they did not expect a webster or kennedy in the first year, why on earth are people all hot and bothered about franken getting in the senate chamber? That defies logic? If he is just another vote, so be it. But people have this impression that he will tear the republicans a new a**hole and get stuff done and I frankly don't see it. Sorry.
2. I really don't care about the far right. The point is the play to the swing voters and franken won't play well in that department at all. That's the point. He is a gift to tar the dems more with swing voters. That's the point. Incidentally, I think the terminator is a fool, gopher was a fool and bono and thompson were jokes. Why on earth do we need another freaking joke in politics? Our country is in dire straights and we are arguing about a freaking comedian?????? That is absurd.
3. I agree that he should be judged on his accomplishments. Let's see them. Until then why can't I have an opinion that may change? I am not locked in stone by any means.
4. Mccaskill was always on the stupid tube. Junior was not after the gaffes. No Powers and clark were cut from the team. They were not sidelined. Big difference. I like powers. I don't like clark. So what.
5. You are kidding on the administration angle. You don't think that junior would want to have a cabinet level position? Come on. You are smarter than that.
6. Why spin my fact that he won't be a senator on obama? That makes no sense.
February 7, 2009 8:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
>>. If they did not expect a webster or kennedy in the first year, why on earth are people all hot and bothered about franken getting in the senate chamber? That defies logic? >>
People are hot and bothered because WE NEED HIS VOTE! Teddy Kennedy is getting up off his near-death bed to vote for the stimulus! Is that so fucking hard for you to understand? Nobody is saying "Franken will whips the Repugs ass." We're saying his vote is crucial NOW! Damn you're thick!
>>2. The point is the play to the swing voters and franken won't play well in that department at all. That's the point. He is a gift to tar the dems more with swing voters. >>
Franken just won Wellstone's seat. Do you even know who Wellstone was for goodness sake? An unapologetic liberal. Franken is from MN--the same state that gave us Mondale and Humphrey (unabashed liberals). He doesn't need to play to the "swing voters." He matches his constituency. That's all that matters.
And please don't say Repugs can run against him somewhere else. Doesn't happen. If that were the case we could use Demented Jim Dement and Shelby to beat Collins and Snowe in Maine.
Why is Franken a joke? He probably knows more about policy and issues than any incoming freshman senator. You've already labeled him a joke before he even sets foot on the senate floor so you're behaving like a close-minded repug. Give the guy a fucking chance.
>>4. Mccaskill was always on the stupid tube. Junior was not after the gaffes. No Powers and clark were cut from the team. They were not sidelined. Big difference. I like powers. I don't like clark. So what.>>
McCaskill took surrogate breaks. I know because I'd be saying "he needs Claire out there!" Powers was an official advisor. She was fired and never heard of again. Clark had the same position as Jesse, Jr.--a surrogate. Once he had that "screw up" he never spoke again.
>>5. You are kidding on the administration angle. You don't think that junior would want to have a cabinet level position? Come on. You are smarter than that.>>
No, I don't think he'd want a cabinet position. If he did, he would have been angling for one from the beginning. But, as early as June, Jesse was trying to get the Senate seat.
Do you have any idea how many people have turned down the chance to be in the administration. This might be hard for you to believe, but some people actually prefer being legislators. Shock!
>>6. Why spin my fact that he won't be a senator on obama? That makes no sense. >>
You bragged "Jackson isn't in the administration" to support your claim that Obama has ditched him. I replied. "He doesn't want to be. He wants to be Senator." Then you bragged "he'll never be a senator" as if he won't be a senator because Obama sidelined him during the primaries.
February 7, 2009 8:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
1. I guess that I am thick. Of course we need the vote, we just don't need another fool to make the vote. I would rather have a dem that isn't videotaped dancing around in tights on stage or dressed in drag or making the statements that franken made in his prior life making the vote. That's the point.
2. Yes, I absolutely know who wellstone was. No, I don't think that franken represents his constituency at this point. His polling numbers sucked and a majority of minnesotans did not want him to represent them. That's a huge problem. I hope he changes that number in the senate. We shall see.
3. See, we agree. Clark and junior were in the same boat. On mccaskill, she was on the tube virtually every day. I followed this election more than any other in my lifetime. She was on the freaking tube almost every day and she did an incredible job. She was awesome, on message and no gaffes.
4. Nah, junior was playing all angles. He is smart and a politician. Why on earth would he not want a cabinet position? Come on. It would be a huge stepping stone. I never said the guy was dumb. I just said that he had major foot in mouth disease with an attitude.
5. I never bragged about anything. I don't brag. I have opinions that you may not like, but I do not brag about shit. That's not my style. Read my posts.
February 7, 2009 9:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
>>1. I guess that I am thick. Of course we need the vote, we just don't need another fool to make the vote. I would rather have a dem that isn't videotaped dancing around in tights on stage or dressed in drag or making the statements that franken made in his prior life making the vote. That's the point.>>
Fuck you. Franken is no fool. You're the fool. You're bashing Franken because you would rather have had somebody else. The election is fucking over, asshole. It's Franken or nobody.
There were people here who supported other Dems in the primary but Franken was the nominee and he's the senator. And just because we want him there doesn't mean there's any worship going on. We're practical. You're still sucking your thumb over the freaking primary.
And your notes about Franken dancing in tights 25 years ago is so ridiculously repuglican-esque.
Have you forgotten that our President wrote about doing marijuana and coke?? You act like some uptight church lady. "Al Franken danced like Mick Jagger on stage 25 years ago. Clutch the pearls. How shall we ever go on?"
I bet you also think Phelps should be arrested and lose his endorsements for smoking pot, too. {rolling eyes.}
And please don't act as if election polls are definitive of how well the senator will perform. In 1990, Wellstone trailed his opponent to the very end then eeked out a 2 point win in the last minute. In 1996, Wellstone beat the same guy by 9 points in a three-way race.
The people of MN were not initially enamored of Wellstone either but they grew to love him because of his time in the Senate. You act like that's not possible for Franken.
>>4. Nah, junior was playing all angles. He is smart and a politician. Why on earth would he not want a cabinet position? >>
Junior was playing one angle and one angle only--US Senator. There's no way he would have been so vocal about wanting to be a senator if he was angling for a job behind the scenes.
He is also bright enough to realize that he doesn't have the chops to be a cabinet secretary. He knows that Obama just doesn't pick his friends.
>>See, we agree. Clark and junior were in the same boat. >>
We agree that they had roughly the same position in the Obama campaign. They were not handled the same way. JJJ continued to be a surrogate for Obama post-NH. He continued to campaign for him post-NH. He got a nice speaking slot at the convention. After Clark said that about McCain, he never uttered another word for the Obama campaign.
You have been unable to recall how Jackson put his foot in his mouth or why he was such a lightening rod. But you're sure he did it.
Yes, you did brag. You brag a lot. Reading your bizarro posts about Gates not doing anything to help others (Hello: Gates Foundation) in the other thread, I realized I'm not dealing with someone with a full deck.
I'm mad I wasted time communicating with a repressed wackadoo who wets himself in fear of what republicans might say. That won't happen again.
February 7, 2009 11:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Really? I suggest that you get an education. You don't even know the definition of brag and you know nothing about gates.
The issue is not what republicans say, the issue is how it plays with the vast majority of the american public.
If the dem party was left to people like you, the dem party would be a new england regional party with no power.
You really should look behind the theatrics of things and get facts. You completely ignore facts and take things only at face value. Kind of like a republican.
Thanks for playing.
February 8, 2009 8:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Being lectured on facts by you is like being lectured on the virtues of vegetarianism by Jeffrey Dahmer.
"Al Franken has never done anything."
"People here expect Franken to be the next Daniel Webster."
"Jackson was totally sidelined after NH."
"50% of the Repugs in the House and Senate will vote for the stimulus."
I'd love to collect on my lunch but dining with droolers is bad for my digestion.
FYI, Franken, the senator you malign, is from MN. Get a map, genius. That's not New England.
Now, run along and piss yourself over what the repugs will say and spin your conspiracy theories about Gates. Enjoy life on planet Doofus!
February 8, 2009 11:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
Stripped of inflammatory statements and name calling this so called discussion misses the central issue, which is an accurate count of the ballots so a majority can be identified and the next Senator can go forward.
In the rest of the country we regard Minnesota in the same light as we did Florida in 2000. Delightful clowns with a knack for tripping each other up.
February 15, 2009 6:23 PM | Reply | Permalink