Tea Party Town Hall Strategy: "Rattle Them," "Stand Up And Shout"
As Rachel Slajda reported earlier this afternoon, there seems to be a growing incidence of members of Congress being shouted down at town hall events by tea party protestors. Those tactics will likely become much more common. As Think Progress first reported, one tea-party friendly group has disseminated a strategy memo for other anti-reform and anti-government groups, outlining what they consider best-practices for protesters who plan to enter and disrupt town hall events hosted by members of Congress over the August recess--practices that, according to the memo, "could be useful to activists in just about any district where their Congressperson has supported the socialist agenda of the Democrat leadership in Washington."
The memo, authored by Robert MacGuffie, who runs the website rightprinciples.com, suggests that tea partiers should "pack the hall... spread out" to make their numbers seem more significant, and to "rock-the-boat early in the Rep's presentation...to yell out and challenge the Rep's statements early.... to rattle him, get him off his prepared script and agenda...stand up and shout and sit right back down."
MacGuffie is a volunteer for FreedomWorks, the industry funded group that helps organize and support the tea party protests. But he denies that his small group has any direct affiliation with FreedomWorks. "We are recommending with that memo that other grassroots groups that share our view should go to the townhalls of their members and use the strategy that we did," MacGuffie told me, confirming the memo's authenticity. "We are trying to get into that town halls to make them understand that they do not have the unanimous support from people in their communities."
If these tactics catch on, and August recess health care events are characterized by organized agit-prop, it could have a dramatic impact on the tenor of the health care debate, and the media coverage of the events this month. Buckle your seatbelts.
Josh
Matt
Eric
Brian
Two solutions: don't hold the town halls.
Or, only allow those with addresses in the district in.
August 3, 2009 1:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
or revive one of the Bush "administration's" odious practices--have security through the agitators out on their @$$es. People want to hear what their elected representatives are doing (or going to do) in Congress, not about how some inbred, flat-Earther has problems with how his little world has changed.
August 3, 2009 2:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
My suggestion would be to hold more town halls, but in smaller rooms; e.g., classrooms or library meeting rooms that can only hold 50 people or so. That way the thugs can't hide in the crowd.
August 3, 2009 2:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
An ambush only works if it's a surprise. The pols should make it clear at the town halls that the appropriate way to be involved in the process is to wait for the opportunity to ask a question into a microphone. Anyone shouting out comments will be ignored and asked to leave. And ask the cooperation of the people in the audience so that as many people get a chance to speak as possible.
By laying out those ground rules from the beginning, the tea party plans of rattling the speaker and getting him off script will fail (ignore the block head and resume the statement when they are done). Also, it inspires sympathy from the crowd. If it's clear that people shouting out opinions hurts everyone else's ability to participate and receive information, then the tea baggers will look like the jerks they are.
The most effective way to shut down the tea baggers attempts to disrupt is to not engage. If the only thing disruption accomplishes is burning through time, it won't be long before the rest of the audience shouts down the baggers. Once it shifts from a group of people fighting "the man" to a disruptive minority fighting against a polite and interested majority - baggers lose. Game over. And it will be very difficult for the media to report that incorrectly (although they rarely fail to disappoint).
August 3, 2009 2:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with you; just escort the troublemakers out of the hall and refuse to engage with anyone who refuses to follow the rules of the discussion.
It should be pointed out to the entire crowd that trying to disrupt the meeting and shout down the speaker is antidemocratic, because it is an attempt to drown out all other opinions but their own. These people aren't content to allow a group discussion and abide by a group decision; they want it all their own way, or no way at all. And that's not the way a democratic society is supposed to function.
August 3, 2009 4:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, only people from the district should be able to speak at these events. Trucking agitators into meetings who are not the contituents should not be tolerated, if they are going to be disruptive.
The other suggestion below abuot only people with microphones and taking turns is also critical. Everyone should be given a chance to discuss something, but not to dominate the meetings. Once they have finished spitting, others can demolish their poorly founded opinions.
August 3, 2009 3:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Tea Baggers certainly are freedom fighting revolutionaries aren't they. I wonder if the "counterinsurgency" is ready making a new rap video depicting their struggle?
August 3, 2009 3:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
But how do we know the teabaggers aren't coming from within the district? If someone is willing to lie, how do you verify their address? I really don't see a substitute for strict rules against shouting down others with enough security to enforce them. Otherwise, I can imagine fights breaking out. I got angry just watching the clip, so I can only imagine how much anger there was among the people present. Will some angry person take a swing at a shouting teabagger or visa-versa?
August 3, 2009 4:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why not ask for some piece of mail with their address on it?
Sure, there's still room for lying, but it's not as bad as insisting that someone have a driver's license to attend a town hall.
But I think an altogether better solution is what was mentioned by several others: set the tone immediately by saying that everyone had to take turns, respectfully, and had to use the microphone. Otherwise, the whole event will stop.
August 3, 2009 4:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Or a birth certificate.
August 3, 2009 4:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Long form only.
August 3, 2009 5:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
How about beating the living crap out of a few of these assholes?
August 3, 2009 4:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Squeaky, back when I was a bit younger when the question was "How can you find the undercover cop at your group's meeting?", the answer was simply "Look for the person who's urging you to do something illegal".
Beating someone up rarely convinces them.
August 3, 2009 5:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Squeaky,
Why do you assume that if you showed up and spoke with a few of these people respectfully, you wouldn't be able to convince a few of them that universal health care is in their favor?
In my experience with tea partiers, they are simply manipulated; not inherently evil as the assumption here appears to be.
They are also a good deal more receptive to our side - the trick is caring enough about the issue for us to actually show up. Takes a good deal more effort and courage than typing away anonymously.
August 3, 2009 5:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's clear these folks aren't showing up to speak respectfully with anyone. They are there to prevent anyone who supports reform from having a say. They aren't asking for respect. They're demanding silence.
August 3, 2009 6:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
SqueakyRat,
How do you know? Have you tried? I have, and I've found that people were very receptive to my support for Obama, for the stimulus, and against the bank bailout.
But if you wish to hide behind your anonymous keyboard instead of reaching out, you'll never have the opportunity to find that out.
Then again, given your attitude, I'm kind of glad you're staying away.
But I do invite more compassionate and more long-term-visioned (is that a word?) people to come along and reach out to these people who are clearly being manipulated.
August 3, 2009 6:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is a harsh assessment of this individual's comments, and calls into question all your calls for treating people with respect, moderation, and not "dressing like a freak".
August 3, 2009 7:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sure, let's all show up and get shouted down by these freaks.
August 3, 2009 7:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do you assume that would happen because you yourself would show up with a hostile attitude toward these people?
Is it anathematic to you to consider that you might possess the ability to make persuasive case in support of your various causes?
And that you would be better able to make that case, and therefore to support your various causes, if you did not enter the discussion assuming the worst of these people?
August 3, 2009 10:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
kyniska, have you actually watched any of the video of what's going on at these town-hall meetings?
August 4, 2009 10:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, and I have watched video of tea parties before moderates arrived in very small numbers to reach out. They looked the same before; they did not look the same afterward.
I'm not sure why you are denying the reality that, in the same way that testosterone levels change based on the composition of other people in the room, the level of discourse and outrageousness can change if you tip the balance of the mix.
(I don't know what your denial is based on = either on a lack of experience or on a commitment to a belief system already deeply etched into your neural pathways? Not sure.)
For many years I worked groups of out-of-control "adults" in a clinical setting. Those experiences (even helping to manage K-3 classes in my teen years) taught me what a profound effect a change in composition - a few more "upright" and "calm" persons to the mix - can achieve. I found much the same experience at tea parties.
Then again, I entered those environments with an open mind.
August 4, 2009 11:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
The representatives are up there speaking respectfully and they are being shouted down. There is no assuming they will do something when that thing has already been done by them.
These are political agitators and that is their only goal at these meetings, to stir things up. They are highly emotional and behaving irrationaly. It is unlikely that you will "reach" them, although it is sweet that you would try.
August 4, 2009 11:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
"These are political agitators and that is their only goal at these meetings, to stir things up. They are highly emotional and behaving irrationaly. It is unlikely that you will "reach" them, although it is sweet that you would try."
Gregor,
When I attended anti-war rallies and other protests, people could have said the same thing about me, NOT because it was true of me as an individual, but because there were unruly other people at the protest I attended.
Bear in mind that for every one person who garners all that attention by acting out, there are others who tag along who are far more rational - and who are surprisingly open to a discussion provided you do not come at them as if they are sub-human.
Change the composition of the mix - show up as your calm self. Listen when it is their turn to speak, but be part of the dignified community that won't allow let them take over the town hall. You CAN change the environment and therefore the discourse simply by showing up.
August 4, 2009 12:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Progressives have to show up in equal or larger numbers.
Show that people who want healthcare reform can't be shouted down.
I'd rather have a media narrative that has both sides at each other's throats rather than one that is dominated by the conservative involvement in the town halls.
August 3, 2009 1:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
The problem is that if your goal is to hold a town hall to call for health care reform, and their goal is to heckle and drown your town hall out, you can't really stop their goal by shouting them back down. If you shout back you're drowning out your own representative as well. You're propagating the disruption.
It seems like there must be some way to use people power or progressive numbers to neutralize teabagger disruptions but I'm not sure what it is.
August 3, 2009 2:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, there is a way. I have been doing it solo, but wouldn't mind some company.
Show up and engage these people respectfully, courteously, and one-on-one.
In this case it might mean waiting until they've exhausted themselves screaming.
But in my experience, the very act of showing up as a liberal/progressive/moderate has a moderating effect on them.
Of course, I don't recommend you try that dressed like a freak. Suit and proper shoes - you're basically trying to appeal to them, show them some respect.
August 3, 2009 5:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
I like your point here. Sometimes, though I wish it weren't true, you have to fight fire with fire.
August 3, 2009 3:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Freedom of speech is a two way street.
Disruption of a public meeting can pass the point of exercising your right to speak and reach the point of denying another's right to speak. Encouraging others to obstruct freedom of speech in this manner is not lawful. A parallel that is perhaps easier to grasp is the right to hold a sign vs. the right to take away someone else's sign.
These people are thugs, and their organizers are dangerous. Let us not give in to mob rule.
August 3, 2009 2:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, they shuyld be exposed as the thugs they are!
August 3, 2009 3:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
These people are not "thugs" - they are simply manipulated.
Act accordingly lest you enable the manipulators more.
August 3, 2009 5:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sunnysteve, let's call a spade a spade. SOME of these tea-baggers are more than thugs ... their nazi-like brownshirts. And those in political and corporate power who cheer them on are nazis in their views, goals, and tactics. I know we're not supposed to use this "n" word in respectful comments and diologue, but I encourage anyone to seriously compare their views and tactics with those THE Nazis used.
August 3, 2009 5:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
AbqMike,
You're wrong on so many levels that I don't even know where to start...
To compare these people, who are not (yet) over the edge, to either Nazis or brownshirts... it's really so misplaced.
It also inflames a left-right divide that is preventing ordinary Americans from focusing on the real enemy... the huge corporations who have captured the government's regulatory agencies for their profit (and apparently a few other government agencies.)
BTW, why is it always a comparison to European fascists, instead of to Japanese fascists, who were actually far more brainwashed and therefore far more murderous than even the German civilians who made up the Nazi party? I say that as an Asian-American, whose family suffered at the hands of the Japanese, and who also understands that the ordinary Japanese male had little choice but to act murderously if he wanted to survive.
Or is Pokemon the great equalizer?
August 3, 2009 6:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
AbqMike~ you are exactly correct. These are the American Nazi movement storm troopers and if you cannot see that you are just not willing to see. They are the same thugs the Republican Party sent down to Florida in busloads to stop the counting of ballots in 2000. Their tactics are fear and intimidation and it works all too well. The MSM treats them as passionate conservatives when all they are is reactionary fascist thugs all too willing to trample the rights of others to enforce their fear and intimidation.
A spade IS a spade.
August 3, 2009 8:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hollywood wrote:
"AbqMike~ you are exactly correct. These are the American Nazi movement storm troopers and if you cannot see that you are just not willing to see. They are the same thugs the Republican Party sent down to Florida in busloads to stop the counting of ballots in 2000. Their tactics are fear and intimidation and it works all too well. The MSM treats them as passionate conservatives when all they are is reactionary fascist thugs all too willing to trample the rights of others to enforce their fear and intimidation.
A spade IS a spade."
I think it's entirely possible that I've had more experience with the tea party group we're discussing. And in that experience, I can report that, no, these are not the "American Nazi movement storm troopers."
I would also suggest that calling them "reactionary fascist thugs" is not a way to ameliorate their current state of ignorant bliss, but is rather a way to solidify it.
It saddens me to read comments such as yours.
While you are involved in further inflaming the left-right screamfest, let me assure you that the corporate kleptocracy is laughing all the way to the bank at middle class rightists and leftists who keep going at each others' throats.
Why not monkey-wrench that, Hollywood?
August 3, 2009 10:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Amelioration is bliss eh?
Every time I listen to a progressive give credence to what the birthers and tea baggers do as legitimate political exchange ..... I cry. There is no "fair and balanced" way to equate those who discuss issues with those who shout down and take over. It is not just a different opinion on what might solve a problem, it is the golden rule vs thuggery ..... and you are feeling sorry for the thugs?
As to your point about the money makers running to the bank with this you are absolutely right. The bottom line with these corporations is the bottom line. All the talk of philosophical disagreement is bullshit. They want the money and they will say whatever gets them the money. Their goal is not healthcare everyone can afford their goal is to get filthy rich without caring who lives and who dies.
August 3, 2009 10:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Amelioration is bliss eh?
"Every time I listen to a progressive give credence to what the birthers and tea baggers do as legitimate political exchange ..... I cry. There is no "fair and balanced" way to equate those who discuss issues with those who shout down and take over. It is not just a different opinion on what might solve a problem, it is the golden rule vs thuggery ..... and you are feeling sorry for the thugs?"
You're not reading me. I'm not giving credence to what they do as legit poli exchange.
I'm suggesting that the way to deal with the situation is to engage them respectfully.
Most of the people were Democrats before Nixon's Southern Strategy.
"As to your point about the money makers running to the bank with this you are absolutely right. The bottom line with these corporations is the bottom line. All the talk of philosophical disagreement is bullshit. They want the money and they will say whatever gets them the money. Their goal is not healthcare everyone can afford their goal is to get filthy rich without caring who lives and who dies."
Right, and so the more we feed into this partisan b.s., the easier it is for them to get away with their historic swindle.
August 3, 2009 11:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
The wingnuts' descent into Weimer Republic politics continues apace.
August 3, 2009 2:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
If the Right wants to be taken seriously then this is not the way to go. They will only come off as angry, crazy and childish while those running the townhall will look calm and professional. Who would you take seriously if you were witnessing these outbursts?
If they had legitimate concerns and reasons for opposing health care then they would sit in the audience and ask questions like everyone else.
August 3, 2009 2:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
If the rep is smart, he can turn this around. Ask the questioner if he/she has health insurance. Is it a private plan or employer paid for? Has the person ever had a MAJOR claim? Does he know anyone that has ever had to fight like hell with an insurance company? I don't believe any of these people have ever had to live without insurance or had a major battle with an insurer. Once you've had to fight the industry, your opionions change forever.
August 3, 2009 2:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
right on.
August 3, 2009 5:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bush and Repukes used have people carted off or arrested in 2004 for this very same tactic. Remember "dont' taz me bro!"...This is a tactic to prevent us from getting the word out and pressures congressmen on their positions for health care reform. If these assholes are disruptive and abuse their free speech, then haul thier asses off to jail!
August 3, 2009 2:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Don't taze me" was at a Kerry rally. The ejections for Dubya were rarely televised.
August 3, 2009 3:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
The whole point of these outbursts is to garner media attention. They want the media to portray this as a national uprising against healthcare reform, even though it's nothing of the sort.
Therefore, it's incumbent on progressives, and anyone else pushing for reform, to make sure that this story does not become one-sided. A few bad, but loud, actors cannot be allowed to write the narrative during this month.
We should be aggressive in finding out where these people are getting their support (i.e., astroturf ties), and confronting them with video cameras/interviews to get some of these individuals on the record. It's highly likely that they are tied to the fringe "birther" movement and/or other anti-Obama racist sentiments. Unearthing any such associations would quickly undermine them.
Additionally, there is great potential for this effort to severely backfire. According to a town hall anecdote at Huffington Post, the town hall crowds are largely sympathetic and supportive of reformational efforts. Concomitantly, these "protesters" are not making any logical arguments against reform that could actually sway anyone. They're just yelling out stuff about "socialism" and "rationed care," etc., all in an attempt to simply disrupt the town halls. People with legitimate concerns and a desire to have a mature Q&A session will probably have little patience for their childish, disrespectful antics. As such, it could actually force people who are kind of on the fence to swing towards greater support for reform, because they don't want to be associated with a fringe movement.
August 3, 2009 2:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you. I sincerely hope you'll be showing up to be heard. I'm going to try to attend as many as possible, both to have my voice counted, and to see how many of these tea partiers I might be able to persuade to, if not support single payer, then at least to reconsider their position on Obama's health care reform package.
It's slow, but it's probably more long-term effective to treat these people for what they are - our fellow countrymen who simply need better information.
Thanks again for a sane, thoughtful analysis.
August 3, 2009 6:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Kyniska, I sure hope you do have someone to go with you, but especially to ride home with you. Many of these people are dangerous and I do not wish to see a kind soul as yourself harmed. So far, you must have been engaged with some light weights, but this "debate" is going to get more heated as it appears healthcare reform will emerge.
August 4, 2009 11:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
I reported their Facebook group as promoting disruptive and potentially violent activities in public meetings.
August 3, 2009 2:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
coordinated attempts to disrupt local civic government and townhall meetings to deny the free speech of citizens on healthcare is domestic terrorism. The FBI should investigate.
August 3, 2009 2:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Can't we use this by alerting the media to the fact that the Republicans are a bunch of thugs
August 3, 2009 2:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
But these are THEIR thugs. The cable and network news channels whose cameras the teabaggers wish to attract are just another comfortably deregulated industry that will do what it must do to stay that way. The teevee bobbleheads will smile and shrug and call it a "raucous debate." I am not predicting that the disruptive tactics will ultimately defeat health insurance reform legislation, but that is the likely way it will be reported by the cable and network news programs in the meantime.
August 3, 2009 3:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Are they wearing their brown shirts?
August 3, 2009 2:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ride to the sound of the gunfire
Respond not in kind but with facts..facts in the face
August 3, 2009 2:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
IOW if there's a townhall set for your district - GO TO IT
August 3, 2009 2:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm kind of hoping you'll give some of us a pass on that. The ones the evil old acid-spitting battleaxe who "represents" me throws will be Teabagger Party rallies. Rational people, or "socialists" as her supporters call them, will not be welcome and, in fact, will likely expose themselves to a non-zero risk of suffering bodily injury.
August 3, 2009 3:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Republicans are terrorists.
terrorist
noun
a radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small groups; often uses religion as a cover for terrorist activities
August 3, 2009 2:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
They also Twitter. Their Facebook page has about 8 members, could write them all letters. "Does your insurance cover potential violent confrontations as a result of your disruptive activities?"
I think what they r doing is not free speech, it's yelling fire in the theater kinda speech. I think Franken had the right idea when he tackled a heckler at a Howard Dean meeting. I'm sorry, but these people are proposing something here that is very, very dangerous.
God, it's like seeing Brownshirt tactics right in front of us.
I would alert your local rep to watch out for this crap, and use some of the tactics xarqaw mentioned above to turn it back on them. Or, in the meeting, ask the crowd: "Let's hold a vote, do we put up with these guys, or ask them to leave?" If they r thrown out by a majority, who can complain?
August 3, 2009 2:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
ninorota,
What do you mean, "like"?
August 3, 2009 3:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
And while the media covers garbage like this, Wall Street screws us every chance they get.
Watch this clip from CNBC earlier today to see what I am talking about.
http://progressnotcongress.org/?p=2378
August 3, 2009 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Keep in mind that most of the folks that will be doing this supported the use of excessive force on "don't taze me bro" guy. Can't wait to see what they do when the shoe's on the other foot.
August 3, 2009 2:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
LBJ said "Being president is like being a jackass in a hailstorm. There's nothing to do but stand there and take it."
I think the same goes for a member of congress in a town hall meeting in August 2009. The people who are disrupting the town halls have had a lot of practice being rowdy at professional wrestling and ultimate fightimg events. I don't think you're going to be able to thwart their efforts.
If Congress didn't want to face this kind of music, lame as it is, then they should have stayed in session and gotten it done.
August 3, 2009 3:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't forget Monster Truck shows and Toby Keith concerts.
August 3, 2009 4:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
How charmingly classist of you.
I guess that indicates you're better than them? That you'll be enjoying Bach's Goldberg Variations all week, with nary a cheese doodle to interrupt your infinite sophistication?
Sorry for the snark, I'm just asking that we re-think the way that media asks us to think about these "others".
August 3, 2009 6:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes we are better than them. People can go to all the monster truck rallies they want, it is a free country, but racist fascist Republicans do not go to the Opera to recruit voters. They go to monster truck rallies.
August 3, 2009 8:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Yes we are better than them. People can go to all the monster truck rallies they want, it is a free country, but racist fascist Republicans do not go to the Opera to recruit voters. They go to monster truck rallies."
Uhhhhh.... no. I have plenty of acquaintances who are both Republican, and IMO, blatantly racist (as well as a both of other 'ists, but we'll leave it at that for now) and who love the opera passionately enough to serve on the board.
And none of them are averse to making suggestions to like-minded opera-goers regarding which GOP campaign to fund.
Your classist assumptions work in their favor, but doubtless not in yours.
Your contempt for the "right" also feeds into the ability of the real villains of the current American story - the corporate titans who are bleeding this country dry - to get away with their crimes.
Because as long as we remain focused on petty, partisan name-calling, we who are middle-class, poor, and upper-middle class (but not titan class) can remain at each other's throats, instead of theirs.
August 3, 2009 10:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well aren't we just the little nemesis~
It is the right wing corporate types who use the uneducated bigots to do their dirty work. In a democracy you need to get to 51% to make the rules. The rich fucks we both despise are indeed behind the mayhem. They do convince the poor fools to fight each other while they take the whole game to the bank. That is America.
There just are not enough rich fucks to vote corporations into power so they need the other 98% of us to battle over bullshit. The only hope of getting and holding 51% progressive is to educate the fools and shame the bullies. I try.
August 3, 2009 11:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hollywood, sorry, I responded to you, but it jumped down to the bottom of the page.
August 3, 2009 11:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
And what will this ultimately mean? No more town-hall-type meetings, that's what.
I saw a comment on Glenn Beck's 912project site, where one angry tea-bagger was declaring "the liberals only offer two options: their way or destroy everything, because if they don't get their agenda passed they would rather burn down the capital." All the surrounding comments were about armed revolution. Irony overload.
August 3, 2009 3:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is precisely the same tactic that the Republicans used in Florida 2000 to stop the recount. Shout'm down. Intimidate everyone. The result: 8 years of Bush and hundreds of thousands dead, etc. etc. ad nauseum!!
I hope that the Democrats remember and fight this back!!
August 3, 2009 3:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Does anyone on the left know how to use a baseball bat off the diamond? This would be a good chance to learn how.
August 3, 2009 3:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Traditional town hall meetings are dead. Thoughtful discussions are not possible in this type of environment. The only way now is though "virtual" town meetings where people participate electronically. Unfortunately, it is a medium too easy to control. At the whim of an elected official, dissenting opinion could be "switched off".
Then again, would that really be different then the Bush "invitation only" town hall meetings?
It all comes down to our ability to hold a civil discussion in increasingly uncivil times.
August 3, 2009 3:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Unproved. And in my experience, entirely untrue.
August 3, 2009 6:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think disrupting general town halls that are held on various political topics is one thing.
Disrupting a town hall on health care is going to be different. This has become a very personal visceral issue for people.
If someone comes in just for the sake of disrupting the meeting, lord have mercy on their souls.
I think the other people sitting there will rise up. One of them is bound to have just lost a family member to cancer because an insurance company wouldn't cover them. Another one probably has two kids and another on the way--no job and no health insurance. Another one had to sell his or her house just to afford treatment for diabetes. Another one does work, earns a good living, but is underinsured and can't even get coverage for two routine physicals. We know people like this. We ARE these people. You do not want to screw around with us the way the insurance companies do.
Disrupt these town halls at your own peril.
August 3, 2009 3:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
It seems to me it's up to the rep holding the townhall. If he/she makes it clear that kind of disruption will not be tolerated, and then follows through by ejecting the guilty parties, it won't work. No one is allowed to stand up and shout, regardless of their political affiliation. No negotiation or discussion.
August 3, 2009 3:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Gotta admit it's the only way single-payer advocates got any attention.
August 3, 2009 3:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
that is true. what's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?
I wouldn't want to be an average Joe "puppet" being told what to do by rich political conservative puppetmasters. Most tea baggers don't know what they're against. Many times what they're protesting would in fact make their lives better.
Conservatives in limousines have such an abusive relationship with conservatives in pickup trucks. It's a master/slave thing.
Imagine having the working class at your beck and call.
August 3, 2009 3:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
For many decades, "we" had the working class at our beck and call.
And it was good.
Labor unions still support the Dems.
But individual working-class persons would hold the Democratic Party closer to its heart if we did less to alienate them on social issues, and more to support their communities.
We should remember that it was Bill Clinton who signed NAFTA, the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act and the CFMA. All three of these acts had a deleterious effect on large parts of the American middle class and the working class.
But both D and R have largely sold out the working class to globalization. Many working-class people (who don't get interviewed much on TPM) see the two party system as profoundly broken. You won't see them at the tea party rallies, they live in communities where most people have just given up.
Meanwhile, liberal Democrats kept up a shrill voice is issues that seemed entirely frivolous to ordinary working people who were just focused on not falling through the cracks. So we tried to end the ban on gays in the military long before we tackled health care. We argued passionately for abortion rights, instead of staying focused on providing a good and equal education for children. Et cetera.
We have a long way to go if we want these people back, and I have to say, if you don't want these people back, you're out of your mind, because if they're not with you, they'll be pitted against you by corporate titans like Fox News.
So let's think a little more deeply about our relationship with "the working class."
August 3, 2009 10:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Freedom of speech, especially voicing an unpopular view is one thing. They should be able to ask questions, etc. But interrupting, disrupting, and acting totally uncivil is something else. Unfortunately, there's a pretty fine line there and we have to be careful.
What Mike Castle did was the right thing. I hate to say it's gutsy to state an obvious truth, but I'm sure he had no doubt of the reception he'd receive. He could have ignored it or copped out, but he didn't.
What was embarrassing is that nobody stuck up to defend him. Nobody told the birthers and other lunies to shut up or wait their turn. Normal people will have to stand up and be counted at some point. The alternative is to accept submission to a boisterous, extreme faction. It also suggests that the majority accepts the garbage that birthers & co. spew-unless they really do.
August 3, 2009 3:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Health care is very personal. I disagree with Josh's assessment that the conservatives are being called in to shut down town halls. Rather, they're being called in to make sure their views are heard. And, liberals better do the same.
If a Democratic Congressman calls a town hall, the Democrats better show up to support him. If a Republican Congressman calls a town hall, the Democrats better show up and deploy tactics designed to call attention to the representative's siding with large insurers who ration health care by buying up competitors and controlling market share. Hey, WellPoint controls like 80% of Georgia's health insurance market place. These guys talk a lot about preserving choice, but who can possibly have a choice when one insurer controls 80% of the market share?
Liberals would be wise to consult the AMA report on the concentration of health insurance. It's priceless. More of the same = more consolidation, higher rates, higher premiums, higher deductibles and less coverage. We need change and we need it now.
August 3, 2009 3:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Look, I don't know if the rest of you are as fed up as I am with the obstruction and political game playing going on with this health care reform...but I DO know this - the Republican obstructionists and the Blue Dog Dems have absolutely NO clue what the rest of us are going through with healthcare. Maybe it's time they did!
If you agree, please sign the petition below, and forward it - any way you can - to anyone and everyone you know! Time to let them know how we feel!!!!
http://www.petitiononline.com/PubOp676/petition.html
August 3, 2009 3:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bar Kafka: I meant "God, it's like, you know, seeing Brownshirt tactics . . . " ;-)
August 3, 2009 3:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
And I mean that they very much are brownshirt tactics.
August 3, 2009 4:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
There weren't any disruptions at the town hall held in Hartford with Dodd and Sibelius--at least the Hartford Courant isn't reporting on any.
Just a "smattering of protesters" outside.
August 3, 2009 3:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
So let's say these Tea-Baggers go nuts at the meeting, start screaming, and the mainstream Americans turn around and punch them in the face. When the ambulances arrive, the medics ask for their insurance cards. The Tea-Baggers say, "I ain't got none." The medics take the Tea-Baggers off the stretchers, drop them back on the pavement and say ... "Then you ain't got no healthcare."
August 3, 2009 4:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is just what right-wing radio and TV personalities like Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly do on a grand scale- be louder and more aggressive than the opposing voices and use volume to trump debate. Democratic lawmakers holding these meetings should simply make sure they have plenty of wattage in their sound systems and turn up their own microphones until they drown the rude hecklers out. Works for Limbaugh.
August 3, 2009 4:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
ot holding town halls is not a ggod solution. The opposition wins then. What you do is make an annoucemnt prior to the start of the meeting that interuptions and outbursts will not be tolerated. That if anybody yells, screams, or causes any sort of commotion that does not allow those assembled to particapate and ask questions, then they will be escorted out of the building and arrested for disturbing the peace.
Nip it in the bud ASAP.
August 3, 2009 4:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Brown shirts. Waving Amerikan flags.
August 3, 2009 4:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
So where are the pro-public Health Care reform..(Medi-Care for all) supporters..intimidated by a bunch of old whacked-out right-wing tea bagging crazies..(most are probably already enjoying their "that there" socialistic "govmint run") Medi-care (the selfish stupid old bitches and bastards) is it open class war-fare, that they want..? Is that what the right wing think tanks and corporate money loving GOP have in mind..let's give it to them..if the police show up, at least the "crazies" will be arrested, tazed and billy-clubbed too..
August 3, 2009 4:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Chabuka,
While I agree with you that there is a value in a counter-demonstration, I do hope you'll leave your hate-filled attitude at home.
Why not show up and respectfully engage these people - in essence, employ some thoughtfulness in winning them over to your side instead of assuming that it has to be some kind of "class war?"
BTW, when you write:
"intimidated by a bunch of old whacked-out right-wing tea bagging crazies..(most are probably already enjoying their "that there" socialistic "govmint run") Medi-care (the selfish stupid old bitches and bastards) is it open class war-fare, that they want?"
do you have any idea how you sound?
August 3, 2009 5:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
I heard a tape of the Sibelius meeting and it was unreal--t-bagz screaming incessantly, I could barely hear her. It sounded very intense.
August 3, 2009 5:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Uh, I hate to point out the stultifyingly obvious, but it's clear that the correct course is to show up as counter-demonstrators.
Typing away with rage at the keyboard may make you feel better (indeed, even superior) but you actually have a decent chance of engaging these misguided "tea partiers" if you actually show up and engage them thoughtfully.
I have tried it myself on numerous occasions, and have not only survived, but have convinced a few tea partiers that the stimulus and universal health care would actually benefit... THEM.
August 3, 2009 5:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Also, here's a short list of people being arrested or carted off during Republican/Bush "public" events. Notice too how un-disruptive the people were and arrested anyway.
August 3, 2009 6:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Republicans are right on target with the shouting down of their opponents at town meetings.
It was a pretty effective way for the Nazis, so why shouldn't it work here.
August 3, 2009 7:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
All these tea-bagers remind me of-not Democrats in 2005-the Brooks Brothers Riot of 2000. You know, well-organized, trucked-in gangs of Rethugs brought in for disruptive purposes.
August 3, 2009 9:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
I guarantee the msm will not tell you these cretins are phony protesters and part of a manufactured outrage machine. The only legitimate news people reporting the facts are Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow. The rest in the msm gave these animals legitimacy by saying these people have some real concerns bout healthcare.
August 3, 2009 10:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Uh, no.
The only legit journalists are Bill Moyers and Amy Goodman.
Rachel Maddow and Keith Olbermann are corporate shills in the employ of GE.
The recent "cooling down" of the fight between Keith and Bill at the request of the corporate CEO's of their respective companies just proves that...
it's okay if ordinary middle class Americans are pitted against one another in this partisan dogfight, because that's what makes ratings both for MSNBC and for FOX. But if that dogfight touches the CEO, then the fight is graciously stopped.
Gentlemen's prerogative, the rest of us are dogs.
Fight the real enemy. Fight the titans, not your neighbor who doesn't agree with you on every single hot-button social issue, but who does have common cause with you on the big story - which is our economic survival and our essential civil rights over "corporate entitlement."
August 3, 2009 11:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Well aren't we just the little nemesis~"
?
"It is the right wing corporate types who use the uneducated bigots to do their dirty work."
And it is people such as yourself (arguably more educated than "THEM") who grease those wheels by playing into this partisan bickering.
You're being used by GE/MSNBC with the kindly face of Keith Olbermann just as surely as the people you hate so passionately are being used by Murdoch/Fox News with the bloviating face of Bill O'Reilly.
Keith and Bill and the CEO's are laughing all the way to the (private) bank as you tear at the throats of people who probably aren't that much more or less protected than you are.
"There just are not enough rich fucks to vote corporations into power so they need the other 98% of us to battle over bullshit."
Exactly my point. You're tearing at the throats of people just like yourself who might very well join your fight if you gave yourself enough credit to engage them.
"The only hope of getting and holding 51% progressive is to educate the fools and shame the bullies. I try."
You've become a terrible bully in the process. Your efforts to "shame" aren't much more successful than those born-agains who try to "shame" people whose lifestyles they don't approve of, instead of just accepting that there are some differences, but that overall, we have more in common than not.
And the largest point that we have in common is we've experienced the largest transfer of wealth from the middle class to the banking sector in human history. And if that doesn't make you rethink your so-far-failed effort to "shame the bullies" I don't really know what would.
August 3, 2009 11:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
dude I think you are fighting with me ..... which is what you do not want us little people doing. I am not a "terrible bully" at all. I am calling a spade a spade. There really are a lot of stupid people out there, it is OK to point that out. Actually fully half of people have less than average intelligence ........ haha.
You are absolutely right on the money part my friend. They really have robbed the bank and no one seems to notice that.
August 4, 2009 12:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think the writer who mentioned earlier to engage these "disruptors" in a Q & A is the right tack here. After all, they're there to get attention by being the loudest and most belligerent, so why not give them their 15 minutes of fame?
Now, that means the speaker must be very prepared and to not devolve into their level of discourse. Don't fall prey to their absurd talking points, but instead, ask the intelligent questions and compel an answer. Getting down to a personal level, asking about one's own experiences and their application herewith, is something that could be very effective.
When these folks are allowed to talk about themselves with a microphone inhand -- it's a form of venting that could prove to be very constructive -- but I bet their followers in the crowd would behave and let one of their own talk at length.
It's a matter of engaging on a different, more intelligent level here. The skilled speaker has the ability to stay above the fray.
August 4, 2009 9:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Shorter Kyniska:
(From "Blazing Saddles")
Bart: "I better go check out this Mongo character."
[Bart reaches for his gun]
Jim: "Oh no, don't do that, don't do that. If you shoot him, you'll just make him mad."
Later:
Bart: "Candygram for Mongo!"
And even later: Mongo realizes: "Mongo only pawn in game of life," and joins Sheriff Bart's effort against the corrupt Governor and (the deliciously) wicked Hedley Lamarr.
*******
Yes, it's a movie, I'm using it as a metaphor for thinking more imaginatively at our own abilities to deal with "villains" who should be fighting with us, not against us.
Bear in mind, the tea party people were once Democrats, either before Nixon's Southern Strategy or before the "charms" of Reagan. They fought with us, not against.
How do you win them back? Not by isolating them even further - that will just solidify their current position.
August 4, 2009 12:31 PM | Reply | Permalink