On CNBC earlier today, Rep. Debbie Wasserman-Schultz (D-FL) gave Rep. Mike Pence (R-IN) a lesson in the health care policy.
Republicans are fond of the line of critique which holds that employers will take advantage of the creation of a public option to drop their insurance coverage and pay the penalty, "forcing" their employees into the public option. To do this, they often cite a flawed study by the Lewin Group--a research center owned by the giant insurer Wellpoint.
But as Wasserman-Schultz articulates, that's not how the policy is set up. If employers drop their coverage, they'll have to pay into insurance exchanges, where their employees will be able to shop around for insurance plans, including, perhaps, but certainly not limited to, a public option.
Somehow, though, I doubt Pence will take this simple policy lesson to heart.


converse
August 31, 2009 6:59 PM
"Schools"? Um, not really.
She explained the choice between private insurers and public option well, but she didn't really answer the question that I think he was trying to get to--
Will middle-class workers end up paying more for the same coverage if their employer decides to pay the penalty and they are forced into the "insurance exchange"?
Actually, I haven't heard anyone answer this question to my satisfaction.
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jimbomoron
August 31, 2009 7:20 PM in reply to converse
The answer -- it depends upon your age. If you're younger, you'll pay less because the Exchange allows insurers to charge older people more. If you're older, you'll pay more for the same reason.
Now how much more? That depends on the community rating. If the community rating is 2:1 (meaning insurers can charge older adults at most twice as much as young adults), as are in the House and HELP committee bills, older Americans won't pay that much more. If the community rating is 5:1 (meaning insurers can charge older adults as much as five times as much as younger adults), older people will pay a lot more.
It's all about whose pockets from which you're willing to take money in order to make health insurance affordable for the other person.
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Stroszek
August 31, 2009 7:29 PM in reply to jimbomoron
The following question is also worth noting:
Will middle-class workers be paying exponentially more if we don't do anything?
Simply: yes.
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Stroszek
August 31, 2009 7:31 PM in reply to Stroszek
And it's also worth noting that the exchange will be there with or without the public option, with or without a bipartisan bill. Consequently, it's all a bit of a red herring.
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converse
August 31, 2009 7:39 PM in reply to jimbomoron
I always suggest that it be the other guy's pocket, preferably the other rich guy.
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cinesimon
August 31, 2009 9:00 PM in reply to converse
Yes, Pence WAS schooled.
Just because it wasn't a screaming match or a slam-down, doesn't mean she didn't school him.
Though it's great to see a debate between adults for once, it's still obvious that Pence and his pals are deliberately misleading people as to how the proposed new system would work. And it became immediately obvious to me, when Pence was discussing the issue for small businesses, that he's arguing up a steep hill, as this proposal would likely save many, many small businesses. Health care via private insurance right now is one of the leading causes for small business failure. If the public option takes that burden away from them, then that is an amazingly good thing.
In other countries businesses pay fees to cover health car, the amount more or less depending on the safety of the workplace, air quality, break times etc) - and they pay exponentially - and hugely - less than American businesses do. With a similar model, small businesses will once again have healthy, productive workers, with a far lesser overhead. How that is bad for the economy, only the conspiracy theorist right/RNC would try to explain that as bad or dangerous.
There are many, many more examples of how this public proposal and the surrounding consumer protection legislation would positively affect the economy - but Pence and co, having recognized their death panel/list nonsense is only turning people away from them, are now simply lying about what the new proposal is and how it works. Shultz did a great job schooling him, in an adult manner.
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Brian D
August 31, 2009 9:12 PM in reply to converse
I have heard this argument now several different times, and I don't really understand it. Why would this bill make it more likely for employers to drop health coverage? It adds a penalty for employers that do not cover employees. Wouldn't that make it less likely for them to drop coverage, or am I missing something?
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converse
September 1, 2009 8:15 AM in reply to Brian D
If the cost of the penalty is less than the cost of the employer contribution to health insurance, then profit motive rules.
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Brian D
September 1, 2009 8:53 AM in reply to converse
Using that logic, though, why do employers even offer health benefits now? It is certainly cheaper to not offer healthcare benefits than to offer them, and they wouldn't even have to pay a penalty now.
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converse
September 1, 2009 9:15 AM in reply to Brian D
I think you know the answer to your question.
Right now, large-scale employers are able to offer lower group rates to attract higher quality employees. But if the insurance exchange begins to levels the playing field between group and individual rates, the value of that enticement will be substantially decreased and employers may decide that it's not worth the bother.
The important question for middle-class workers is: How level will the playing field become? How much more will I have to pay for the same coverage if my employer decides to drops health insurance?
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Brian D
September 1, 2009 9:37 AM in reply to converse
So the argument is that if healthcare becomes affordable for everyone, instead of just employees of large businesses, this is a bad thing because it creates too level of a playing field?
Actually, now I understand the concern that an individual working for a large company might have about what might happen to his or her coverage. But, in terms of what's best for the country, it seems strange to argue that we would hate to see affordable healthcare for everyone, because, then, large companies would have fewer advantages than they do now.
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converse
September 1, 2009 10:11 AM in reply to Brian D
Don't disagree. But for those with a family who may be on the edge right now, barely able to make the bills, hanging onto an okay job that might not last too long--and that includes quite a few--immediate self-interest is claiming 95 percent of their attention.
Do they care about families that don't have health insurance? Of course! Do they want to join them? NO!
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DrToast
August 31, 2009 10:01 PM in reply to converse
I'm not sure, but I guarantee it'll be better than what's happening now. Companies are dumping health insurance and people are screwed because they can't afford any insurance.
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DancingBear
September 1, 2009 8:26 AM in reply to DrToast
You put your finger on the fallacy of Pence's "these are tough times" argument. Does he not think that those "we love you but we can't afford to continue to give you health care benefits" talks aren't happening all over right now?
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mardam
September 1, 2009 9:13 AM in reply to DrToast
Because they use health insurance as what it's called...a benefit. A company with good benefits has an advantage when trying to hire the best people. Another "benefit" of the public option would be that lower health care costs would allow companies to pay more for workers in salaries. Those increases cold help people pay for private...or public...insurance.
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DancingBear
September 1, 2009 8:29 AM in reply to converse
"she didn't really answer the question that I think he was trying to get to"
If that was Pence's real question, isn't it Pence that failed and not W-S?
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Mateo123
September 1, 2009 11:51 AM in reply to converse
No one answers this question. No one will stand up and say, "If you are healthy and you have private insurance, private insurance works great. If you get sick, though, and you want to try that radiation for your cancer? Today your insurer is quite likely to deny you coverage unless you are young or your treatment has a virtual guarantee of success. Now, that's not a solution."
We need to push back. I don't think that Wasserman-Schultz did a good enough job here. The constant line of "if you're happy with your insurance, nothing will change," has to stop. Everyone is happy when they are healthy and they see a doctor for a cold once or twice a year. But, if they're sick -- if they have breast cancer and they're 60 years old -- their insurer is much more likely to bring trouble into their lives.
The second problem with Wasserman-Schultz was this: she waited too long to point out that if the employer drops coverage, the employer will have to pay the employee to join the public option. This has to be mentioned. Many with insurance -- myself included -- are afraid that if there is a public option, our employer will just drop our coverage and we'll be left with the $900 per month health insurance bill. I follow this stuff and I still don't know if what I am saying is true. If my employer drops me because there is a public option, am I likely to just be saddled with the cost of the public option or does the bill provide incentive for the employer to keep me in their insurance?
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FightTheFascism
August 31, 2009 7:29 PM
I believe the Lewin Group is owned by UnitedHealth Group.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/22/AR2009072203696.html
- FTF
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wickning1
September 1, 2009 7:08 AM in reply to FightTheFascism
The Lewin group has found in favor of single payer in a number of studies commissioned by state governments over the years. They usually come up with the more conservative estimates, but I'd hesitate to accuse them of qualitative misrepresentations. More like if they say 100mil will drop coverage, it's probably closer to 80mil.
Of course, the point is that those folks will probably be better off, since they'll have more choices and won't have to worry about pre-existing conditions. Most will also get a subsidy to help pay for it, while their employer will probably have a little more money available for wages (or else they wouldn't have dropped coverage).
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mike from Arlington
September 1, 2009 9:07 AM in reply to wickning1
The problem with what the LewinGroup did in their calculations and the the CBO noted in their analysis, specifically of the public option, is they assumed the public plan would cost 20% less while the CBO estimated it would cost 10% less that private insurance. This is how the CBO came up with estimations of only around 2 million moving to the public plan while the LewinGroup came up with close to 100 million moving over.
I guess that extra 10% really makes a difference.
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ohyeathatsright
August 31, 2009 9:48 PM
So Rep. Pence would rather people not have jobs then health insurance.
Yes, companies are struggling and shedding jobs--factories are closing. If a public option could save the company some money by ditching an expensive insurance carrier, then wouldn't that help them salvage the jobs? Then, upon fiscal recovery, they could go out into the marketplace and buy a better OPTION from a private insurer to attract new employees.
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Cal Gal
August 31, 2009 9:51 PM
I heart Debbie Wasserman-Schultz. She's one Dem who can give ReThugs a taste of their own medicine on TV. I hope her health permits her to finally jump into the fray with both feet.
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wvbiker
August 31, 2009 10:22 PM
Mike Pence sounded like he wanted to prevent employers, aka businesses, from cutting their costs, which would increase businesses profits.
Huh?? I thought he was a Republican.
But he sounds like a liberal (by conservatives' definition-you know- antibusiness)
My head hurts.
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pmb50
August 31, 2009 10:55 PM
Its about time Wasserman showed up
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Andreams
September 1, 2009 10:37 AM
I'm 60 years old and my work hours have been cut back; my health insurance is now 77% of my paycheck. Add payroll taxes to that and I get no take home pay at all. Savings are going to run out soon and I will be one of the working uninsured. If I hear anyone else say that those who do not have insurance should get a job, I'm going to throw up. I want insurance but I want to pay a fair price. If we had an exchange like the federal government, we would all be paying the same price for insurance, regardless of our age.
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markg8
September 1, 2009 11:07 AM
Brian I believe the Lewin Group is owned by United Health not Wellpoint isn't it?
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markg8
September 1, 2009 11:20 AM
If you employer has under $250,000 in payroll he or she isn't required to pay a tax or offer insurance to employees. Between $250,000 and $500,000 there is sliding scale tax from 3%? to 8% for employers who don;t offer insurance. Above $500,000 in payroll it's a flat 8% is they don't offer insurance.
That money goes into a pool that subsidizes small business and individuals with tax credits to buy insurance ($53 billion), making it desirable and a net cost winner for small businesses the self employed to buy insurance.
On top of that with the new regs outlawing their worst practices all health insurance will be better and cheaper. Better because it's real insurance and cheaper because they'll actually be competing against each and won't have any need for hundreds of thousands insurance industry bureaucrats who specialize in denial of care sleight of hand.
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tomfodw
September 1, 2009 11:33 AM
It's obvious to anyone except a teabagger or paid insurance industry shill that the only possible solution is a single-payer system. We'd all be part of the same group then, all community rated, low overhead, no advantage or disadvantage for a public option or a profit-driven (and bonus for the CEO-driven) private insurance company. No exclusions, no rescissions - what's not to like?
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markg8
September 1, 2009 11:40 AM in reply to tomfodw
What's not to like? There aren't enough votes for it to pass the house let alone the senate. That's what's not to like.
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