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Baucus, Conrad Respond to "You Lie" Flap By Restricting Non-Citizens from Insurance Market

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Sen. Kent Conrad (D-ND)

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Republican Rep. Joe Wilson's shout heard round the world has turned into a political food fight and a minor scandal for the GOP. By blurting "you lie" during the President's address, Wilson was insinuating--wrongly--that Democratic health care legislation would provide federal subsidies to undocumented immigrants to buy health insurance. But though Wilson's allegation was false, and the political impact has been largely negative, Democratic leaders on the Senate Finance Committee seem to think it's worth fixing the non-existent problem Wilson was complaining about.

"We really thought we'd resolved this question of people who are here illegally, but as we reflected on the President's speech last night we wanted to go back and drill down again," said Sen. Kent Conrad (D-ND), according to Time. The incident reportedly has led Finance chairman Max Baucus to insert a provision in his legislation to require participants in the health insurance exchanges to provide proof of citizenship.


Two things remain unclear. First is whether non-citizens would be barred, by this provision, from receiving federal subsidies, or entering the exchanges altogether. That's the difference between an inconvenience and actually barring undocumented residents from buying buying health insurance.

Second, is how progressive members of Congress and immigrant groups will respond to the news. We'll let you know the answer to both questions.

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53 comments

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September 11, 2009 11:19 AM   

I'm sure the Repbulican votes will come flooding in, and Wilson will be the champion of healthcare reform now.

or, he'll point to this new development and say, see I was right. Obama was lying.

All the repbulicans will cheer him on, and he'll do another victory lap on Fox, and raise more money off of his outburst that won this new development.

Good work, fellas!

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September 11, 2009 12:09 PM    in reply to Indie Pro

Completely agree on this. They're so fucking stupid. They just gave Wilson credibility and made it seem like the President was lying.

Really, it's less that they're stupid. Baucus and especilly Conrad have been trying to undercut the Admin throughout this process. As the process is getting pulled away from their grubby paws, they're laying in their last few posion pills to screw up the process.

John

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September 11, 2009 12:34 PM    in reply to tosh

atleast the Dems seem to be reversing on this:

Democratic leaders are planning to vote early next week to admonish Republican Rep. Joe Wilson if he does not apologize on the House floor for yelling "You lie!" at President Barack Obama.

Brendan Daly, a spokesman for House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, said party leaders decided at a meeting Thursday that they will likely move forward with a resolution of disapproval against Wilson absent another apology.

Wilson apologized to Obama after the incident on Wednesday, but he has refused requests to apologize to the House. Wilson's office says the congressman considers his initial apology sufficient.

Democrats say the insult clearly violated House rules of decorum.

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slb

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September 11, 2009 2:29 PM    in reply to Indie Pro

Good. They should absolutely do that, especially since Wilson appears to be walking back his initial apology and basking in the adulation of the GOP nutbase.

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September 11, 2009 11:21 AM   

We've been through this before. There are people, mostly poor people and older people, who don't have birth certificates. Presumably if they have a Social Security account that would be enough, but if they are going to try to require more than what is currently required for SS, Medicare, welfare etc that would be another hit on th3e poor on top of the job discrimination the employer fines are going to put in the bill.

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slb

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September 11, 2009 2:32 PM    in reply to Mimi katz

We've been through this before.

Exactly so. Didn't they try putting tougher restrictions into Medicaid, and then finally have to remove them because they were causing a lot of problems for actual citizens and legal residents and not turning up much in the way of violations from illegals?

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September 11, 2009 2:38 PM    in reply to slb

The NYT today has editorial on this subject. It says that in 2007 Congress reviewed 8 state Medicare programs which operated under rules requiring no illegal aliens allowed. The result: a cost of $8.3 million for the cost of the search, and 8 illegal aliens discovered.

Plus, for god's sake, don't we want these folks to get vaccinations? What if one of their kids gets the measles, or swine flu? That'll teach 'em, eh?

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September 11, 2009 11:23 AM   

Conrad and Baucus are next to worthless. A couple of self-aggrandizing, weak-kneed, appeasement-minded, waffling, groveling, Obama-undermining, conservadem, bought-and-paid-for insurance industry lackey pricks.

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September 11, 2009 12:08 PM    in reply to ttarleton

I think you've got them pegged, froggie.

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September 11, 2009 12:19 PM    in reply to brewmn61

And those are just their BEST points.

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September 11, 2009 12:43 PM    in reply to dick_data

Did I mention that they are also chuckleheaded sadsack prairie-dog-fondling Great Plains slagheap toadstool pisspot turncoats?

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September 11, 2009 1:16 PM    in reply to ttarleton

NEXT to worthless. Hey I am from Montana and I can tell you right now. Max Baucus is what we call "worthless as tits on a boar." He is Montana's greatest embarrassment to this great experiment in democracy.

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September 11, 2009 3:35 PM    in reply to bushwhacked



Well . . .

There sure are a whole crap load of folks in Montana who seem to like Max "tits on a boar hog" Baucus.

345,937 voted for him in 2008.

Ya' get what you deserve.

~OGD~

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September 12, 2009 12:02 AM    in reply to OldenGoldenDecoy

Jesus H Christ. Did you happen to notice who or what the Republican ran against him. Millions and more millions of political contributions is a tough nut to crack. That's a lot of money for a state with 800,000 residents.

Help us Obi Won.

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September 11, 2009 11:26 AM   

Wilson's intent was never to make the language stronger. His intent and the Right's intent is to kill health care reform, period. Sarah Palin's intent was to kill health care reform not to remove so-called death panels. They did not win anything here. And this certainly was not an attempt to win GOP votes.

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September 11, 2009 11:28 AM    in reply to VivaAmerica!

I do believe that in the minds of these 2 "bipartisanship" worshipping hacks it is indeed an attempt to win GOP votes.

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September 11, 2009 11:38 AM    in reply to ttarleton

Sorry, don't buy it. These guys are politicians and they know and speak bullshit.

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September 11, 2009 12:14 PM    in reply to ttarleton

It won't change any minds in the toddler tantrum brigade formerly known as the GOP.

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September 11, 2009 11:56 AM    in reply to VivaAmerica!

- on FOX etc: If Obama wasn't lying why'd they change the language in the bill?

- in discussion: If the last lie we told won this, being able to show Obama was lying, what should our next lie be.

/end obvious talking points

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September 11, 2009 12:36 PM    in reply to Indie Pro

1- On FOX - that speaks for itself

2 - their ultimate intent is to kill health care reform and to weaken Obama beyond repair. Is health care reform dead? Is O weakened beyond repair? No

I know this is a blow to the Left's ego, but we must stop blowing up over these tiny crumbs.

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September 11, 2009 1:45 PM    in reply to VivaAmerica!

It's not a blow to "the Left's ego." It's stupid, pointless pandering that makes the entire party look weak and deceptive.

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September 11, 2009 11:31 AM   

On the other hand it takes a talking point away from the wing nuts. If they acknowledge that "Joe Wilson made the Dems change the bill" they'd be essentially telling folks that "Illegal immigrants won't be getting free coverage". If they try and publicize the Wilson "win", they're taking away on of their key teabagger talking points.

I think this could actually be smart.

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September 11, 2009 11:39 AM    in reply to Walter Mitty

On the other hand it takes a talking point away from the wing nuts....I think this could actually be smart.

What's so smart about being portrayed in the MSM as milquetoast jellyfish who piss their pants everytime a thug says, "BOO!"? 'Cuz you know that's what'll happen.

Republicans may walk in lockstep, but that has its PR/propaganda advantages.

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September 11, 2009 11:45 AM    in reply to Schmed

Only viewers like you will think that. To the average American who doesn't follow politics (the majority), it's nothing.

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September 11, 2009 12:52 PM    in reply to Walter Mitty

I really try not to rant, but Baucus and Conrad are playing classic Democratic stupid. "Please don't hit me again."

They need to read Josh's Bitch-Slap Theory of Electoral Politics.

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September 11, 2009 11:33 AM   

Hmmm...National ID Cards anyone?

Will be waiting for Republicans to use a Tenther argument against those.

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September 11, 2009 11:35 AM   

This says citizens only. What about resident aliens? They're here legally and they pay taxes like the rest of us. Often they're spouses or other family members of citizens. How did we get from barring illegals to barring all non-citizens? What's next, only certain, "deserving" citizens?

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September 11, 2009 11:41 AM    in reply to mans_best_friend

Good point, albeit a bit too nuanced for the average tea bagger who think that everyone who wasn't born here is "illegal."

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September 11, 2009 11:45 AM    in reply to Schmed

And they're not too sure about people who were born here if they're the wrong type.

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September 11, 2009 12:22 PM    in reply to mans_best_friend

When does "not born here" morph into "not born again"?

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September 11, 2009 11:40 AM   

If this provision would bar people from buying health insurance, it is idiotic. We should WANT them to buy health insurance, so they're paying their way into the risk pool and getting regular health care, rather than depending on ER charity care.

And if it would really apply to all non-citizens -- even people who are here legally -- it is even more idiotic.

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September 11, 2009 11:41 AM   

Not to mention the bad politics of caving in to the nutters again, which is its own brand of idiocy.

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September 11, 2009 11:43 AM   

I think that's Josh's wording not the bill's.

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September 11, 2009 11:46 AM    in reply to VivaAmerica!

meant to reply to mansbest.

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September 11, 2009 11:47 AM   

baucus and conrad appear to me to be fucking morons.

"We really thought we'd resolved this question of people who are here illegally, but as we reflected on the President's speech last night we wanted to go back and drill down again," said Sen. Kent Conrad (D-ND)

there is no question. except among those who have either not actually read the fucking language in the bill or don't understand english as well as the average 'illegal immigrant'.

plain english:

H.R. 3200: Sec 246 — NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS

Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.


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September 11, 2009 1:27 PM    in reply to fkaZk0sm0

And here in plain english is the law that prevents illegal immigration.

"Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, "Improper Entry by Alien," any citizen of any country other than the United States who:
enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact; has committed a federal crime.

Violations are punishable by criminal fines and imprisonment for up to six months. Repeat offenses can bring up to two years in prison. Additional civil fines may be imposed at the discretion of immigration judges, but civil fines do not negate the criminal sanctions or nature of the offense."

Your quote of H.R. 3200: Sec 246 — NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS will work as well as the aforemention law prevents illegal immigration.

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September 11, 2009 4:34 PM    in reply to The Reluctant Conspiracy Theorist



A little poem . . .

Little Miss Muffett
Sat on her tuffet
Eating her curds and whey
Along came a spider
Who sat done beside here
And said... What'cha got in the bowl, bitch?

The moral of this story?

Quit your bitchin' or go join the Minutemen-if you aren't all ready a member.

~OGD~

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September 11, 2009 5:53 PM    in reply to OldenGoldenDecoy

Where's the bitchin', fool? Just quoting HR 3200 and Federal law. Oh, I forgot, you guys get your panties in a bunch when confronted by the truth.

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September 11, 2009 12:09 PM   

These guys are first class idiots.

Collectively they represent 1.6 million people out of a nation of 300 million.

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September 11, 2009 12:13 PM   

This has been a screech from the right and left for ages--It SHOULD HAVE BEEN HANDLED WITHOUT BEING EXPOSED..Baucus and Conrad are history..They have become corporate shills for HC Corporations...call them 1.800.828.0498!

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September 11, 2009 12:27 PM   

Yup. I'm sorry to say that I've lost what civility I've had left. I most assuredly want to punch Baucus in the face as hard as I can. What a scumbag, spineless, feckless, pathetic, piece of...

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September 11, 2009 1:26 PM    in reply to The BBQ Chicken Madness

Can you imagine going through life knowing that people calling you a worthless piece of shit, your wife, your kids, and all future generations will be known as pieces of shit. Why? Well not only because they are related, but it goes deeper.

Because you (Baucus) sold your soul to the corporate thugs. There is not one iota of difference between Judas and a handful of silver and Max Baucus with the millions upon millions he took from corporate thugs.

Now they are calling Max out to pay up and he has no choice but to lay bare the belly's of the citizens he swore to represent.

Max Baucus should be in any and all lesson plans to students trying to understand how our political system works (or doesn't). A shining example of how politics is corrupted by greed, shameless greed and nothing more.

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September 11, 2009 12:31 PM   

Could they have waited a freakin' week? If the language got inserted later, in committee, it wouldn't look so much like a confession.

Still, this is a compromise, which Democrats do and Republicans don't. But it should have come next week, or early October.

These people have apparently never been in a real pissing contest before.

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September 11, 2009 12:54 PM   

Why does Harry let these tools out of the shed? I know, rhetorical question.

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September 11, 2009 1:02 PM   

The real damage here is in showing that the nutters' tactics work. Idiots, the lot of them.

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September 11, 2009 1:07 PM   

We all keep discussing Baucus and Conrad's words as if they're based on ideas, and that if we just come up with better ideas, they'll come around.

Folks, they're bought and paid for.

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September 11, 2009 1:40 PM   

Please, Brian or someone at TPM, clarify whether this is meant to apply to all non-citizens, including those here legally. My spouse is a non-citizen with permanent resident status who has been living, working, and paying taxes in the U.S. for over 25 years... Would such people be barred from participation?

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September 11, 2009 3:22 PM    in reply to madmad

This is an important question. If the language rolls the bill back from "undocumented" to include legal residents, then that's a big deal.

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September 11, 2009 1:43 PM   

To tell the truth, I would not be surprised to find out that these two are a couple of birthers themselves!

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September 11, 2009 3:20 PM   

I just called Wilson's office to complain about his initial assholery and his disgraceful attempts to raise money off of this behavior. I am livid.

I spoke with the staffer and I remained civil until I heard his response after I told him that President Obama was telling the truth. He started to give me the bullshit lines about the loopholes for "illegals" and also stated that the senate finance committee was correcting the bill as proof that wilson was right and the president was lying. I hate the term "illegals", as I believe it is dehumanizing. I restated that the bill never covered people that are here illegally. Baucus and Conrad are idiots for allowing them to use this as a talking point.

I told him that Rep. Wilson owes the country an apology on the house floor and that the lack of respect was particularly galling given that President Obama is our first African American president.

Bottomline, a good staffer will calmly listen to people and move on. This guy was a wingnut that only wanted to spew his false talking points. I called only to voice my discontent but I ended up being enraged. He said that Wilson had every right to make money since the other side was doing it. I reminded him that his opponent should be getting money because people like Wilson aren't fit to serve in Congress, but Wilson's money grubbing only proves his lack of contrition.

Give em' hell and don't back down.

DC Office:
212 Cannon House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515-4002
Phone: 202-225-2452
Fax: 202-225-2455
Email: Joe.Wilson AT mail.house.gov

District Office - Beaufort:
903 Port Republic Street
Beaufort, SC 29901
Phone: 843-521-2530
Fax: 843-521-2535
District Office - Columbia:
1700 Sunset Boulevard (United States 378), Suite 1
Post Office Box 7381
West Columbia, SC 29202
Phone: 803-939-0041
Fax: 803-939-0078

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September 11, 2009 5:39 PM    in reply to margochanning

"I remained civil until I heard his response after I told him that President Obama was telling the truth"

"I called only to voice my discontent but I ended up being enraged."

Ahh, so you remained civil until you didn't get the groveling response that you were looking for. Now your pissed because the staffer didn't suffer your abuse gladly? Give me a break.

So, let me get this straight. You expressed your displeasure of Wilson's "lack of civility" by calling his office and..not being civil? Can you spell "hypocrisy"?

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September 11, 2009 8:01 PM   

Is this what President Obama meant by "We'll call you out"????

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d1

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September 14, 2009 12:09 AM   

You know, it's actually worse than the righties here are saying. What's going unnoticed is how Brian Beutler has dissimulated in this very story. In the first paragraph. Here it is:

'By blurting "you lie" during the President's address, Wilson was insinuating--wrongly--that Democratic health care legislation would provide federal subsidies to undocumented immigrants to buy health insurance. But though Wilson's allegation was false...'

Beutler said that Wilson was talking about "federal subsidies to" (what he will not call, but who are) illegal aliens. That is false, and not just incidentally false.

Here's the actual sequence of words during Obama's speech:
[Obama:] "There are also those who claim that our reform efforts would insure illegal immigrants. This true is false. The reforms I am proposing would not apply to illegal aliens." [Wilson:] "You lie."

Does this refer to "health care legislation... provid[ing] federal subsidies to undocumented immigrants to buy health insurance"? No. It refers to the plan applying to illegal aliens--which the public option WOULD DO, as it was when Obama spoke and had since drafted.

So why did Beutler say that Wilson was referring to federal subsidies for illegal aliens to buy health insurance? Because only on THAT matter could he say "Wilson's allegation was false," and say there was a "non-existent problem Wilson was complaining about."

HR 3200's Sec. 246 did contain language barring illegal aliens from getting the bill's subsidies for purchasing health care: "SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS. Nothing in this subtitle [Subtitle C] shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

So what's the problem? Well, Sec. 221, which is in Subtitle B, establishes the "public health insurance option as an exchange-qualified health benefits plan." That subsection contains NO bar to illegal aliens' enrollment; it does NOT contain a provision barring illegals from enrolling in the public option program. And Sec. 246, which is in Subtitle C, does not apply to Subtitle B; as it states, it applies to the subtitle in which it is found, C.

Beutler had to go a ways to concoct this "lie" and "non-existent problem" for Wilson to be alleging; he had to do so because it was NOT what Wilson was alleging, and it was not the federal subsidy to buy insurance that Obama was speaking of when Wilson said "you lie." Obama was speaking of the program as a whole, not one small subsidy provision of it, and so was Wilson. Obama never mentioned affordability credits---the federal subsidies to purchase insurance that Beutler refers to---in his speech. Only Beutler says, and without any support or even plausibility, that Wilson's rebuke was about the federal subsidy. There is no support for, and no reason to believe, and no plausibility to, Beutler's statement that Wilson was referring to "federal subsidies to undocumented immigrants to buy health insurance." Beutler simply made that up. He did so because he needed something in the bill to which he could refer and about which he could say that "Wilson was wrong" and not be transparently wrong about himself. Since Beutler went to the length of creating a point for Wilson to be wrong about when neither Obama nor Wilson referred to the point nor can in any sense be plausibly said to have been referring to the point, it is inescapable: Beutler's mischaracterization is an intentional falsehood.

And Sec. 221 of HR-3200 does not in any way prohibit illegal aliens from enrolling in the public option. Joe Wilson was right, Obama was lying, and Brian Beutler in this story concocted a false rationale to enable himself to say Wilson was wrong, not Obama.

More proof? Okay, how's this: The Time story to which Beutler's article links does indeed talk about how "Baucus [intends] to insert a provision in his legislation to require participants in the health insurance exchanges to provide proof of citizenship." But then Beutler says, "Two things remain unclear. First is whether non-citizens would be barred, by this provision, from receiving federal subsidies, or entering the exchanges altogether. That's the difference between an inconvenience and actually barring undocumented residents from buying buying health insurance.

Actually neither of those things would be inherently unclear: The proof provision would be in Sec. 221; Sec. 246 already bars illegals from receiving subsidies (though it has no proof-of-citizenship requirement, and in practice would not be a bar at all). A proof-of-citizenship provision in Sec. 221, without a prohibition, can also be gotten around by the states' accepting such easily obtained yet non-probative ID as a driver's license or utility bill (which some states do now for federal programs which, consequently, illegally allow use by illegal immigrants). Each section could contain both the prohibitionary language of Sec. 246 and the proof-of-citizenship requirement that Baucus says he'll put in Sec. 221--and also require documentation that actually proves citizenship, as well as a search of a federal database that would authenticate. But that might actually stop illegals from getting coverage under the program--and that is not very likely the goal of the Democrats.

What's an "undocumented immigrant," anyway? I'm pretty sure the lack of documentation means that the immigrant has immigrated illegally, and, being a citizen of at least one other country, is an alien; thus one must conclude that an "undocumented immigrant" is an illegal alien.

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