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Speaker Pelosi Throws Down The Gauntlet For The Public Option--Will She Succeed?

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There are no two ways about it. What Speaker Nancy Pelosi's doing in the House of Representatives is a big play, and very, very bold--indicative of her confidence in both the wisdom of the public option as a political and policy tool, and
in her ability to get results out of her 256 member caucus, despite the wide ideological chasm between its most liberal and most conservative members.

Pelosi's pulling out all the stops to pass a health care reform bill with a public option that pays providers at rates slightly higher than Medicare--even if it means she has to squeak a bill out of the House with the barest majority. Since the beginning of the push to pass reform, the public option has been at the center of the fight, pitting Republicans, moderates, and major industry stakeholders against an extremely determined majority of Democrats, progressive interest groups, and the public at large. It has been an epic tug of war, and at times, the pro-public option side seemed on the verge of being yanked into the mud.

But in recent weeks, as the health insurance industry further disgraced itself by rolling out the big anti-reform guns, and liberal leaders in both the House and Senate made it clear that they view the public option as an essential component of reform--one that serves voters' interests, and saves money--even if the White House isn't willing to put its full weight behind the measure.

It's in that context that Pelosi is running thiis public option endgame.

At last count, she's still eight votes shy of the crucial 218 she needs to pass a robust public option plan, though key players seem to think she has momentum on her side. If she can't whip up those last eight votes she'll likely have to revert and move ahead with a more modest public option--one that negotiates rather than dictates reimbursement rates. That would disappoint reformers and progressives in her caucus. But she (and they) will be able to say she pulled out all the stops.

All of this is at the heart of what she's trying to accomplish more broadly. She's staking out the boldest, most progressive ground she can to give key provisions, like the public option, strong odds when it comes time to negotiate away the differences between the House bill and what will almost surely be a weaker Senate version.

And she's laying down a mark she hopes the Senate will follow, saying implicitly that the chamber that represents all voters equally supports a bold public option, and daring skeptics to do the bidding of the unpopular minority. That could put public option skeptics on the Democratic side of the Senate in an awkward position. (Just yesterday, one of the Senate's most conservative Democrats seemed to indicate that a public option might not be so bad, so long as states have the option of pulling out of the plan if they so choose.)

All of this comes with some risk, however small, that the strategy blows up in her face--either that she can't scrape together the minimum votes needed to pass a robust public option now, or that she can, but in a way that unites skeptics, who may feel strong-armed and refuse to play nice in negotiations. By and large, it seems she'll have the vast majority of the Democratic base, including its well armed pressure groups, on her side. And she, more than perhaps anybody in Washington, knows how to pass the bills she wants passed. Stay tuned.

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105 comments

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October 21, 2009 1:28 PM   

Go Nancy! Git 'er done!

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October 21, 2009 1:33 PM   

Everyone runs around yelling about Baucus being Obama's front man in Congress. I have watched their relationship and think that the real spokesman (!) for Obama on Capitol Hill is Madam Speaker! This is exactly the type of wrangling that went on during both the Stimulus and the Budget processes -- what was in the final bill was exactly what Nancy wanted! (Hint, hint: so progressive that even Krugman was pleased with the budge!)

Also. Removing the less progressive Rahm from Congress and holding him closer was to leave his most progressive ally in the trenches -- same principle as he used in pulling in Biden, Clinton etc instead of Kaine, Kerry respectively. Allies on the outside, .... on the inside :-)

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October 21, 2009 1:34 PM    in reply to Radha

Oops, budget!

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October 21, 2009 2:16 PM    in reply to Radha

I'm guessing Krugman likes a nice budgie every now and then...;-)

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October 21, 2009 2:31 PM    in reply to Schmed- ley

I only oopsed at budge, not budgie!!!

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October 21, 2009 2:44 PM    in reply to Radha

Suuuure. Obama also made those secret deals with lobbyists just to keep them on the "inside" too!

Anyway, back to the real world: good for Pelosi. It is nice that at least one Democratic leader actually tries to pass Democratic bills.

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rwc

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October 21, 2009 10:25 PM    in reply to Why oh why

I'm with you. Obama appears to be part of the problem here. Just check out his speech last night all but endorsing the Baucus bill and chastising the base for being too argumentative and pure.

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mcc

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October 21, 2009 2:45 PM    in reply to Radha

Obama clearly wants to make it look like Pelosi's his front person, at the least. Notice the now-infamous mop comment, he says "I'm busy, Nancy's busy", he uh, doesn't name a third person. Sounds like an endorsement to me.

Though there do seem to be people who think this, I don't know why someone would consider Baucus to be Obama's front person unless they're just working under the base assumption that Obama is evil and anything that seems bad for reform must secretly be doing Obama's bidding.

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October 21, 2009 2:55 PM    in reply to mcc

Read: 'The Baucus Caucus: PhRMA, Insurance, Hospitals and Rahm'

"We started this whip count effort on June 23 because it became clear that in the course of making their deals with stakeholders, the Baucus Caucus (who were negotiating on behalf of the White House, with the participation of the White House) had very likely already dealt the public plan away."

http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/08/19/the-baucus-caucus-phrma-insurance-hospitals-and-rahm/

But if you close your eyes and repeat 'Yes we can!' 1000 times, Obama is really a progressive willing to fight against Washington special interests (those he is not meeting in secret, that is)!

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October 21, 2009 4:57 PM    in reply to mcc

Well, she is the second most powerful person in DC, so it's appropriate in that respect.
VP? Gets to settle ties in the Senate.
The Senate doesn't have a post commensurate with Speaker of the House.
Nor is the President Pro Tempore in the line of succession.

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October 21, 2009 3:12 PM    in reply to Radha

Also. Removing the less progressive Rahm from Congress and holding him closer was to leave his most progressive ally in the trenches -- same principle as he used in pulling in Biden, Clinton etc instead of Kaine, Kerry respectively. Allies on the outside, .... on the inside :-)

Keep your friends close, your occassionally douchebag friends closer?

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October 21, 2009 3:37 PM    in reply to BillMcD

Exactly!

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October 21, 2009 4:51 PM    in reply to Radha

i agree. she has been a big spporter and has more balls than reid. she should be the majority leader instead of reid

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October 21, 2009 1:33 PM   

Profiles in Courage


seemingly in short supply with the President and the Senate

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October 21, 2009 2:02 PM    in reply to Indie Pro

For this caricature to make sense, you have to concede that Pelosi is working without the White House's knowledge or permission. Doesn't seem very likely.

What does seem likely is that Pelosi is pushing her advantage in the House, like she did with the stimulus and cap-and-trade, in order to strengthen the legislation and move the debate. She's worked closely with the president on this and would seem to be his best general in Congress. The process isn't perfect, but it makes a lot more sense than watching all these actions in isolation or imputing nefarious or cowardly motives to the POTUS.

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October 21, 2009 2:06 PM    in reply to fbacon2

Giving Obama credit for Pelosi's move is silly.

At his own rally, when people called out for the public option, he hedged.

When he reps go on the Sunday talk shows and they are asked about the PO, they say he likes it, but it isn't important. When pushed further last Sunday on Meet the Press, about with that attitude who will fight for it, nothing.

Were progressives invited to the whitehouse to discuss HCR. Nope.

I afmire your imagination. But you need to present some evidence.

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October 21, 2009 2:10 PM    in reply to Indie Pro

Some evidence would be the way Obama has handled virtually all the problems he inherited and his campaign. I am willing to bet that Pelosi is doing Obama's bidding as well. He is trying to act like he is above the fray and Pelosi has the ability with the house to get the Public Option through and in the mix. It's Obama jujitsu at its best.

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October 21, 2009 2:15 PM    in reply to Michael A

I'm with you on this one. Indie Pro never has anything positive to say about Obama or Pelosi but at least he is consistent.

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October 21, 2009 2:15 PM    in reply to lousgirl84

liar

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October 21, 2009 2:15 PM    in reply to Michael A

Alright, I'll play, give me an example if you can't present evidence

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October 21, 2009 2:23 PM    in reply to Indie Pro

I did present evidence. Read the post again. I'm not going to write out how he handled his campaign and everything he has been doing his first 10 months in office. For example, look at how he handled the stimulus package.

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October 21, 2009 2:25 PM    in reply to Michael A

this:

Some evidence would be the way Obama has handled virtually all the problems he inherited and his campaign.

is your example?

No really. An example. I want to believe. I just don't see it, beyond faith.

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October 21, 2009 2:31 PM    in reply to Indie Pro

Indie Pro: Its one thing to question White House intentions on PO, but your posts pretty much always sound like you had a first row seating at every discussion in the White House.

I'm not sure if Nancy Pelosi is doing it alone or following deliberations with the White House. And I bet you don't know it either. But if Obama/Pelosi have as good a relationship as it seems, at least a certain degree of understanding cannot be ruled out.

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October 21, 2009 2:39 PM    in reply to kash79

pretty much always

nice. If you read closely, I'm taking issue with people automatically giving Obama a pass on everything. That's it.

I don't understand what the blind faith is based on.

I campaigned for Obama. I donated to Obama. I was on this site during the election. I was outraged about FISA. I hate that he's allowing Artic Drilling, was against Franken's Rape Amendment -suffice it to say, I have many issues with this administration.

But I don't act like that. I simply question everything. If there is nothing to back it up, then I don't assume it.

I do pressure, though. The pressure needs to be on Obama (especially since it seems like he's trying to back off of whatever comes out the senate) and Reid. That's where the deabte it.

I also agree with this:

It would be great if the president would take some leadership. I don't think he's done that."
-Blue Dog Rep. Jim Marshall (D-GA)

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October 21, 2009 3:03 PM    in reply to Indie Pro

He's allowed arctic drilling? How did I miss that?

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October 21, 2009 3:09 PM    in reply to The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/19/AR2009101903347.html?wprss=rss_nation


The Interior Department has given Shell approval to drill oil exploration wells in two leaseholds in the Beaufort Sea, which could lead to the first drilling in more than a decade in this area off the north coast of Alaska.

Shell Alaska general manager Pete Slaiby hailed the decision as "another positive step towards the ultimate goal of drilling in 2010."

But environmental groups criticized the move. "There is no safe way to drill in the Beaufort Sea," said Athan Manuel, director of lands protection at the Sierra Club. "Cleaning up an oil spill in the Arctic's broken sea ice is next to impossible, and where there is drilling, there are oil spills." He said a spill could threaten polar bears and bowhead whales.

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October 21, 2009 3:19 PM    in reply to Indie Pro

Shell Alaska general manager Pete Slaiby hailed the decision as "another positive step towards the ultimate goal of drilling in 2010."

Damn. Worser and worser, 'round the drain we spiral.

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October 21, 2009 4:22 PM    in reply to Indie Pro

It's a conditional approval and not a done deal. A terrible development to be sure, but there's been some encouraging signs on the environment coming from the Dept of Interior...Some decisions will be(and have been) made that are counter to good science, but honestly it's never good for the environment to build something, drill a hole, etc.

As long as we put gas in our cars, and ship billions overseas to shitty dictators, drilling will be a domestic political issue. Of course common sense says drilling in the Arctic, or Gulf for that matter won't help much at all, but as we all know, common sense isn't usually a player in the game. It's got a seat at the table in this Administration, the question will be how much it's allowed participate.

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October 21, 2009 5:58 PM    in reply to Dorn76

they are allowed to drill two separate leases all ready.


"The Interior Department has given Shell approval to drill oil exploration wells in two leaseholds in the Beaufort Sea, which could lead to the first drilling in more than a decade in this area off the north coast of Alaska"

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October 21, 2009 3:30 PM    in reply to Indie Pro

IndiePro: I also did all the things you mention to see Obama get elected, in fact I took the entire 2008 year off from college. Many of us did.

I cannot comment on the drilling, but I also disapprove things on your list. But also there are several things I approve of this 10 month administration.

But I thought we were discussing healthcare, and even in that debate, the administration did the right thing at certain stages, and not so at other stages.

All I'm saying is things don't often work in black and white.

And while I like Nancy, I think, its more likely she would have some understanding with the White House rather than take on the President all guns blazing.

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October 21, 2009 3:38 PM    in reply to kash79

No, we were discussing your accusation that I act like I'm in all the discussions. That, right after someone saying I'm always negative against Pelosi. So forgive me if I treat you like you are attacking me as well.

Mainly I post links. Or question what is going on.

That being said, so if you are saying that there is no way Nancy is acting outside the consent of the Whitehouse, then we can say the same for what comes out of the Senate. OK. Your call.

But in actuality, I'm with TPM:

There are no two ways about it. What Speaker Nancy Pelosi's doing in the House of Representatives is a big play, and very, very bold--indicative of her confidence in both the wisdom of the public option as a political and policy tool, and
in her ability to get results out of her 256 member caucus, despite the wide ideological chasm between its most liberal and most conservative members.

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October 21, 2009 3:47 PM    in reply to Indie Pro

It is highly likely, both Reid and Nancy are acting with some understanding with the White House. It seems absurd not to be in consultation with the President from your own party.

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October 21, 2009 3:49 PM    in reply to kash79

Cool. Obama owns what comes out of the Senate, like the House. I hear ya.

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October 21, 2009 3:54 PM    in reply to Indie Pro

Broad brush strokes. What he owns is the final bill, if it comes, on his table or the failure of never having a bill to sign. Anyway, we're glad we ran out space.

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October 22, 2009 7:39 AM    in reply to Michael A

You're using the stimulus package as a good example? He started out way too small and then negotiated away some of the most important parts and watered it down with ineffective tax cuts. Bottom line, the final bill was too little to do anything but slow the bleeding. He wasted his one bite at the apple.

Maybe your next example will be how he gave away hundred's of billions to the Wall Street fat cats without addressing the underlying problems or coming close to passing critically needed reforms of the banking system.

Sometimes I think Obama is that mirror in Harry Potter. Some of you look at him and see what you want to see.

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October 21, 2009 2:16 PM    in reply to Michael A

I misread your post, apparently we do not agree.

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October 21, 2009 2:53 PM    in reply to Michael A

I have no doubt that Pelosi, at least, understands that you go into negotiation with your strongest position.
I want to believe, but remain skeptical, that Obama is intentionally being coy, but supporting Pelosi quietly. There is certainly precedent, if you look at how FDR handled negotiations, for a president to not "take it to the mat" until everyone else is locked in. That way, if it goes his way without him throwing his weight, he gets the advantage of the win without expending any political capital or making himself the target.
The tea leaves are ambiguous so far. Obama AND his right-hand man, Emanuel have cozied up to the drug industry, consistently downplayed the PO, and have only focused on the parts of the reform package that are not strongly contested. His track record in playing nice with Wall Street does not indicate any desire to push progressive policies. Maybe he really is playing out a well-orchestrated end game. I hope so. If he's that good, we won't really know what his strategy was for a decade or two, after he's long retired.
Most likely, he's got a multi-pronged flow chart, with several options, and he is keeping as many options as possible open for as long as possible.

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October 21, 2009 3:02 PM    in reply to Mr.E.

Maybe he really is playing out a well-orchestrated end game. I hope so. If he's that good, we won't really know what his strategy was for a decade or two, after he's long retired.
Most likely, he's got a multi-pronged flow chart, with several options, and he is keeping as many options as possible open for as long as possible.

well done.


and might I say, even if he is playing some well nuanced behind the scenes game, that won't change my position or what I'm fighting for, or the way I argue.

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October 21, 2009 3:42 PM    in reply to Michael A

I think it is not really "doing his bidding" at all, in any sense. They are quite simpatico, it seems, in thought and deed. Both don't preen around, or yell and scream or even deliver chest-beating ultimatums. Most importantly, they are both progressives tempered by their unyielding pragmatism.

It is quite fun to watch them together, in just the purest professional sense of two people serious and committed and responsible and of nearly one mind on most issues -- quite a pleasure for politico watchers like me...

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October 21, 2009 2:40 PM    in reply to Indie Pro

I agree with Indie Pro on this. This is Pelosi standing strong without White House backing. I have been so disappointed in Obama. He has not been the progressive I had hoped for. And, at this latest rally he defended the Baucus Bill to criticism from the audience. Unbelievable.

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October 21, 2009 2:59 PM    in reply to mo lib

Oh, nonsense. If she were going rogue on this we'd already know about it because staff would be blabbing about it all over the MSM. But, hey, that's the great thing about absence of information. Let's you and me both fit the known facts into our preferred narratives.

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October 21, 2009 3:17 PM    in reply to The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve

Absolutely correct. There hasn't been a peep about going rogue. Also, before he was in the senate Obama was in favor of single payer and did speeches revealing that he was pro-single payer. I find it hard to believe that he did a 180. He is just trying to avoid political fall out and get it done.

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October 21, 2009 4:01 PM    in reply to The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve

I said Pelosi was standing strong. Much different than "going rogue".

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October 21, 2009 5:03 PM    in reply to mo lib

And "without White House backing". Funny how you left off that part.

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October 22, 2009 7:19 AM    in reply to mo lib

Any praise for the Baucus bill is just as likely a ploy to keep wavering and feckless Blue Dogs in the game and give them some cover with either their corporate overlords or conservative constituents or whatever. The wavering Blue Dogs on the Senate side may not be entirely necessary for a straight up-or-down vote, but they are needed for cloture. That's the Magic 60 vote figure everyone keeps tossing out.

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October 21, 2009 2:44 PM    in reply to Indie Pro

Completely agree with this.

The WH wanted the Progressive Caucus to STFU. Rahm & Co. were perfectly happy with the Blue Dogs watering down Waxie's bill, and looked forward to their ability to pulling things back further right in the process of merging of the TriCom bills.

The Progressive Caucus wasn't happy. It wrote letters. It stood firm. It got yelled at. It got laughed at by the media. It was told it was going to have to rollover for the good of passing any bill to get a "win".

There were *some* cracks. But enough of them stood firm, and frankly rather annoyed that the Blue Dogs were getting what they wanted for *not* being loyal to the Party while the Progressive were being told to rollover for the party. Their anger was enough that it finally got them a meeting at the White House, and pretty clearly that didn't go well as they didn't roll over.

Instead, they started whip counting. And at the same time, polling started looking better, the Tea Party/Death Panel nonsense started to fade, the Baucus Caucus started looking like fools (though good ones in exposing that the GOP wasn't going to support *any* bill). To be blunt, a lot of shit came together in a short period of time.

Their whip counting starting looking so good on *any* version of a PO that Nancy sent them back out to whip on Medicare + 5%. More than that, the worm turned enough that the threat of scuttling a bill in the House that *didn't* have a PO started to look like a viable threat. Deep down, none of us really believe they will do it. But they were firm enough that it became a good tool for Nancy to use: I can't hold these folks in line, and we've got to throw them something.

It really hasn't been Obama who has used FDR's old "make me do it" refrain. It was Nancy. At the start, she was pretty wishy-washy because she had about a 99.99% certainty that they House was going to need to cave to a Senate Bill pulled further to the right than anyone wanted to go, with the likelihood of it giving cover to her own Blue Dogs threatening not to vote unless the House also went right. The wishy-washy though left the door open in the other direction if the opportunity was there. The Progressive Caucus took that opportunity.

We're not out of the woods. Lord knows what ugly Blue Dog head pops up, or where the Senate goes. But it's close enough in the House to Medicare + 5% that they are likely:

* some Blue Dogs who can be turned simply by the way the polling is trending in some of the Blue Dog districts

* some of the Blue Dogs simply can be bought of by pork in other pending pieces of legislation: times are tough, and everyone would like a little something slipped to their district under the radar

* some of the non-Dog fence sitters will do the same for the two reasons above

At this point, if Nancy wants the Medicare + 5%, she can get it. They're close enough. The question is whether the fence sitters will try to extract other blood out of the bill to damage it, or if they can be pushed over into either "voting with the party" or being bought off with something else.

Those CBO Reports help Nancy and the Progressives a great deal. The majority of the Blue Dogs who preach Fiscal Conservatism are frankly full of shit as we all know. They're willing to give away money from the Federal till for their pet items (tax cuts, estate taxes, etc), and ignore cost savings that might be shown in those reports. But a handful of them would look at those reports as cover back in their districts, especially if polling is in favor of a PO and Healthcare. And at this point, Nancy doesn't need much more than a handful to start breaking.

The Senate and White House remain a problem. Nelson talking about an opt-out (rather than an opt-in), even if it's tied to Schumer's "neutral" rather than the Medicare + 5%, is a rather large step foward. Not out of the woods yet.

I'm mixed on whether the White House is wrong to not push not, or if it's wis for them to save their push for the end game.

Part of me thinks it's wise to not push to hard on a clear line in the sand early, because it gives Blanche & Co. a target to pull back from. They get their blood & ego by pulling the bill back from what the President wants.

On the other hand, one does wish that the WH would send some strong hints:

"Medicare + 5% is very reasonable."

"What's wrong with Medicare rates? Where covering XX million seniors in this country at those rates and they're happy with their coverage, and doctors & hospitals aren't going broke. Another 5% to cover younger, healthier people sounds more than fair."

Just some simple framing statements that could have helped frame the Narrative on what's reasonable, and help frame those on the other side as *not* being reasonable without saying it directly.

So when a Conrad raises his issue about Rural Rates for Medicare, you can extend the olive branch:

"Senator Conrad raises a good point. Now in the big picture, it's a small number because of the number of people being impacted, but to them it's an important issue. The good thing is that since it's a small number, I think we can sit down with Senator Conrad and the experts to come up with a reasonable adjustment on rural rates that addresses their very valid concern. This isn't hard to fix if we sit down and talk about it with the experts to come up with a solution."

That's the type of stuff I wish the WH and President had been doing. Rather than dictate, help move things along while stiking the note of being reasonable. It would have played well off his attempt to get the GOP involved, and when they wouldn't, drive a narrative that the President had been the reasonable one all along, not just with the GOP by also with concerns being raised within his own party... but not letting his own party be full of shit.

John

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October 21, 2009 2:55 PM    in reply to tosh

Longish, but very understandable. Thanks!

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October 21, 2009 2:59 PM    in reply to tosh

Well done, sir.

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October 22, 2009 11:00 AM    in reply to tosh

Beautifully and well said.

President Obama is not a stupid guy. And he is politically savvy.

Watch: he's brilliant.

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October 21, 2009 4:05 PM    in reply to Indie Pro

Here's my problem. I have about as much definitive evidence about what Obama is doing behind the scenes as anyone here. What I don't want to do is misread disparate data points and push a whole lot of big assumptions to build a worst-case, Obama-is-a-sellout scenario. What I saw on Sunday was about the same message as I've seen from the WH since the summer. He's not waving a veto pen, making threats, or issuing demands on the public option, and he's made it pretty clear from the get go that he wasn't going to. This approach lost a lot of people on the blogs, and that's fine. But I don't get why people have taken strategic or tactical decisions to impute all sorts of nonsense about courage, motive, character, and so on.

I've watched these political games and seen how the media cover them long enough to have my own best guess about what's going on. What we've seen so far conforms to what I'd expect from a president making rational moves to get a bill past the Senate and through the Congress. That's why I never bought into the panic over the public option by a bunch of misleading and meaningless headlines over the summer. That's why I don't accept the "going rogue" narrative being set up here to create a sense of conflict for the news.

The WH and Pelosi have been in close contact on all the big agenda items since the inauguration, and every statement from the WH--including the ones that get blown up into the WH somehow backing off the public option--has anticipated that the House would include a public option in their version of the bill. We also hear reports of the WH trying to work support behind the scenes for some form of public option that can survive the Senate, and it makes sense that whatever final form the bill takes, having a strong version come out of the House only helps our position. So given all that, yes, I argue that the WH public posture doesn't necessarily match what we read in the news, and yes, a few people on the WH payroll have been moving with an eye on what all the other players are doing.

That's not saying I'm giving Obama credit for Pelosi, but why assume she's acting in contradiction to what the WH wants? That's what the post above and your comment imply.

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October 21, 2009 5:48 PM    in reply to fbacon2

did I ever say she was going rogue? Does this post by TPM? I don't see it.

your guess is as good as mine.

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October 21, 2009 6:56 PM    in reply to Indie Pro

It's my caricature in response to your caricature. If Pelosi doing her thing is a profile in courage against the craven and corrupt WH and Max Baucus, she's fighting against someone and at personal or political risk, no?

TPM picks up on it as a "bold" move, I guess as a correction to months of jumping on weeks of inaction or qualified statements of support as somehow a sign of faltering support.

Pelosi's doing great work. I hope history will record her repeated and proven abilities as a vote getter, not just on health care, but on the other big items on the agenda. Her abilities are well known in the WH, and it's one of the reasons why they kept her close and backed her when she was coming under fire earlier this year. Saying she operates in isolation is just off-base.

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AJM

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October 21, 2009 3:02 PM    in reply to Indie Pro

Sen. Burris counts as a profile of courage in the Senate.

What is also lacking in the Senate is the ability to count votes. Baucus focused on passing something there without reckoning whether it could pass the house or not. His disaster of a plan cannot -- in part because reps have to face the voters sooner.

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October 21, 2009 1:40 PM   

Ok. This is taking waaaaayyyy, waaaayyy too long. It's been almost a year for pete's sake and over 50 years in process. Sit down. Write it out. And vote. We have many, many, many other problems that need action now. This dithering is a complete waste of time. We will be in an election year next year and still dithering.

Action now. Vote in a couple of weeks and move on to Lobbying reform, campaign finance reform, finance industry regulation, immigration reform, etc., etc., etc. At this rate, the dems with a 60 seat majority in the senate will get squat done.

This isn't sausage making. This is trying to manufacture molasses from sugar cane in the Artic tundra, which will cease to exist if we don't deal with climate change as well.

Come on. Move and get it done.

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October 21, 2009 2:25 PM    in reply to Michael A

I second your opinion. Esp. Now that it is out of all the committees, Dems have 51 plus votes in the Senate, 60 to stop a filibuster, votes in the congress and a presidential desk of the White House.

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October 21, 2009 3:24 PM    in reply to kash79

Are you sure? There are some Dems, Ben Nelson for one, Joe Lieberman for another (using the term loosely), and maybe Mary Landrieu and Blanche Lincoln, who say they won't even vote for cloture if the bill on the floor includes a public option. That's heavy. Part of me asks why these folks still have shoulders attached to their sockets, while the other part remembers Lawrence O'Donnell telling Keith Olbermann that when he was an aide to George Mitchell, he learned that you can't force a Senator to do anything they don't want to do. Period.

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October 21, 2009 3:56 PM    in reply to George C

If it is not realistically possible, than they can include a PO opt out, or even a bill from the finance committee tampered down by the one from the health committee. But it is paramount to get the bill out of the senate and into the conference.

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October 21, 2009 5:08 PM    in reply to George C

Were is their statement they would not vote for cloture?

Underlying bill, sure... we only need 50 on board. Never heard anyone on our side of the aisle say they would support a filibuster of a bill with a PO in it. SO cite your source for that claim please.

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October 22, 2009 7:33 AM    in reply to Lestatdelc

Here's one from Ben Nelson saying, in essence, he won't commit to blocking a GOP filibuster (meaning he, de facto, supports it).

Now that the opt-out concept is gaining traction as a reverse-trigger (states won't be able to opt-out for some as-yet undefined period of years), Nelson just said he could support that strategy.

Of course, that also does not say he would vote for cloture.

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October 22, 2009 7:35 AM    in reply to TheRealFish

I meant to say "he won't commit to blocking a GOP filibuster — if it includes a public option."

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October 21, 2009 2:26 PM    in reply to Michael A

I am impatient too, but remember we are talking about a bill which will dramatically affect an industry which is 1/6th of our GDP!

There is a lot at stake, so it's only natural for it to take a while.

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October 21, 2009 2:33 PM    in reply to rynato

Do you think Healthcare should be passed before the next recess? If it doesn't, it is very likely dead.

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October 21, 2009 2:45 PM    in reply to rynato

Well, as a counter point. We went to war and killed hundreds of thousands of innocents based on false evidence and little debate. How much time did they spend on that? A week.

We passed the thousand page plus "Patriot Act" with no debate and in the middle of the night that trounced on our civil rights. How much time was spent on that?

We pass a huge defense authorization bill every year and how much debate is on that?

Decades plus in debate, a year in active "debate," countless studies, meetings, committee hearings. Enough is enough.

I want this done one way or the other NOW and move on. We are wasting a ton of time on this and other incredibly important and game changing issues need to be addressed, the primary one is take the slush money out of lobbying. They can talk and "lobby," but no cash. Wipe that out and then we can get a ton done including a robust public option in the future if necessary.

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October 21, 2009 2:54 PM    in reply to Michael A

Don't forget the Bush tax cuts in that list.

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October 21, 2009 5:04 PM    in reply to Michael A

Don't forget the Republican's Palm Sunday Compromise, for Terri Schiavo, took less than 24 hrs.

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October 21, 2009 5:13 PM    in reply to Michael A

And the things you point out were good things to have passed?

Seems to me you are inadvertently arguing that we should not follow the course of those wrong-headed "pass it now, hurry up" POS bills and get HCR right by not demanding it get done wether the bill is right or not.

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October 21, 2009 5:50 PM    in reply to Lestatdelc

Good point. The only counter is that we have spent way to much time already, in my opinion, to get this done. But you do have an excellent point.

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October 21, 2009 1:46 PM   

I said back in July that the House needed to act to put pressure on the Senate. As Lawrence O'Donnell, former COS Senate Finance put it the other day "People don't understand the Senate. There is no way you can whip a Senator into voting for something she doesn't like sort of physically hitting the Senator with a stick"

That's so true and a point seemingly lost on many.

At the same time, O'Donnell's been saying that this should play out like 1994 when the House sat by while HCR died in the Senate.

Never understood that one especially not when the obvious goal is to set up the strongest position in conference where this all will be decided anyway

Nice to see my Congresswoman doesn't understand that either

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October 21, 2009 3:03 PM    in reply to johnmccsf

Here's something else that's lost on most people:

The Senate does NOT represent the people (the majority). The represent the wealthy elite (the minority): the land owners, the patricians, the moneyed class. The Senate was created to create a check on the proportional representation in the House and thereby avoid mob rule. They aren't supposed to look out for the little guy, so don't expect them to.

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October 21, 2009 3:31 PM    in reply to Schmed- ley

That's not exactly true. The Senate is there to represent the interests of the State Governments, and the Governors, which can be very much in or very much out of synch with the desires of the masses in each state.

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October 21, 2009 4:01 PM    in reply to BillMcD

On paper, yeah. Sometimes you have to peek under the covers:

Check and Balances: The Origins of the Bicameral Legislature Arising from the U.S. Constitution

The idea was almost aristocratic in nature. The Senate would function as the Upper Chamber with longer terms and richer members, a small elite body that would review decisions and was deemed as more prudent and patient, with stricter qualifications. The house, as a concession to democracy, would be popularly elected based upon population counts and would be considered a Lower Chamber, made up of men with less money and prestige....In this way, the drafters of the Constitution were elitists who were protecting their own interests from encroachment by what they saw as lower economic classes. Their theory was based upon a caste view of society and assumed that somehow this division of rich and poor (though the poorest citizens who were completely unlanded couldn't vote at all), would somehow balance and protect the interests of both, or at least be acceptable to most. Additionally, as a compromise to get the Constitution ratified, the larger states agreed to allow one Chamber, the Senate, to represent all states equally regardless of population, thus again protecting the wealthy in smaller states from loss of power.

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October 21, 2009 4:18 PM    in reply to Schmed- ley

Except that the Constitution as originally written doesn't lay out voting rights - that was left to the States until the Civil War - so the argument begins to fall apart as soon as the assumption that the unlanded would be unable to vote at all is incorporated, because it's built on that shoddy foundation.

A stronger argument, rather, would be to point out that only the relatively affluent landowners and entrepreneurs (like Franklin) would have the time to pursue much of a career in State politics, and so would, in effect, be the State Governments whose interests the Senate was to advance.

But in the end, I'd have to say that it was not so much the wealthy that were to be protected and given greater heed to than the masses, but the educated - that the educated usually tended to have money doesn't mean the intent was to protect the money, however.

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October 21, 2009 5:11 PM    in reply to BillMcD

Except that the Constitution as originally written doesn't lay out voting rights - that was left to the States until the Civil War - so the argument begins to fall apart as soon as the assumption that the unlanded would be unable to vote at all is incorporated, because it's built on that shoddy foundation.

It's not an assumption that the landless could not vote, it's a fact. Suffrage laws varied from state to state and they generally favored white male property owners (see http://www.archive.org/stream/americancitizens00evanrich#page/64/mode/2up for some examples). In some states, you needed land, in others you needed money, and in others still you needed both.

Again, you're relying on the law in principle. As practiced, the Constitution and many other laws were written to protect the wealthy.

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October 21, 2009 5:41 PM    in reply to Schmed- ley

I don't necessarily agree. Certainly, the text could be read that was in some states, or it could be read to indicate that someone had to be a taxpayer in that state - without things like a driver's license or other paperwork that simply didn't exist, how else do you show that you're not someone coming across the border from another state (especially in places like Conn or RI, where there are a number of neighboring states within half a day's ride of most of your state's territory) to skew the vote? Most of those provisions establish a record of residence. You can't, for example, go saying that New York's 'or be a rental tenant' is aimed at the wealthy - New York City had large rental/tenant populations when it was still New Amsterdam, and they weren't wealthy.

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October 21, 2009 7:12 PM    in reply to BillMcD

Most of those provisions establish a record of residence.

"a freehold estate with an annual income of 3 pounds or any estate of 60 pounds"

"a freeholder of 50 acres of land in the county and residing therein"

"50 acres of land or a town lot...legally seized and possessed at least 6 months..."

Sounds like they had to own big pieces of land to me.

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October 22, 2009 11:10 AM    in reply to Schmed- ley

Exactly: the assets represent an investment in the community. Stability.

And a function of gov't is to establish and maintain stability.

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October 22, 2009 11:25 AM    in reply to JNagarya

Agree, as far as it applies to the discussion. However, using property ownership as a criterion for having the democratic right to vote was just another means to suppress the rights of the poor and other disenfranchised who made up the majority back then. So my initial point (the Senate works for the rich) is validated by the long history of denial of civil rights to those who were deemed a threat to the wealthy elite minority.

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October 23, 2009 12:41 PM    in reply to Schmed- ley

You know little about the innovations implemented in the 17th century British colonies, especially MA-Bay. It was an age of monarchy, yet they did have elections. And the MA-Bay General Court became bicameral because of a lawsuit by an impoverished woman whose cow was appropriated and sold by a wealthy man.

That resulted in the institutionalization and strenghtening of the position of that which is the equivalent of the House of Representatives.

Certainly the welthy have all along abused their power. But the institutionalization of democracy -- the inclusion of the less-well-off -- has had a salutary effect; we are seeing it today, with the intent to reregulate the lawess wealthy.

Otherwise, Washington said the Senate is the cooler heads -- like pouring teac into the saucer to cool it down. The House is the closest to democracy; and the Senate is a check on that.

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rb6

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October 21, 2009 1:50 PM   

She could also raise the %age of Medicare to something like 120%, which would be below commercial but clearly hard for providers to complain about.

(1) Most commercial payers pay at a percentage of Medicare, except where everybody agrees Medicare is too low. So she could use Medicare+ as default and allow individual negotiation with PCPs or other hard to get providers.

(2) Still need balance billing protection for non-pars, like Medicare has. This is a huge issue in the commercial arena and I would love to see this across the board. Providers just should not be able to charge "whatever" they feel like without letting you know in advance.

(3) Medicare needs to be fixed whether or not Medicare rates are used. It makes sense to go with the Medicare rates and then concentrate for real on problems within Medicare, in terms of both administration and reimbursement, which would then solve a lot of problems for both public and private programs.

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October 21, 2009 2:07 PM   

Rep Grijalva says those 8 votes can be found within a pool of 20 or so "persuadables"

anyone here experienced enough in these fights to tell us how we go about identifying those 20 ?

already checked the extremely reliable Dr Dean's site, FDL, slinkerwink @ Kos, and DFA - nuttin'

anyone ?

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October 21, 2009 5:05 PM    in reply to izzatxeaux

Try the 35th most popular political blog in the U.S.: OpenLeft.

http://www.openleft.com/diary/15630/house-whip-count-at-210-prelimary-target-chart-available

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October 21, 2009 2:24 PM   

Go Nancy!!!!!

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October 21, 2009 2:27 PM   

I want to see something very soon come out of the Senate. Harry @king Reid don't let it die in waiting.

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October 21, 2009 2:38 PM   

more balls than reid + obama

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October 21, 2009 2:47 PM    in reply to Leftist Pinko

Clearly this metaphor needs to change now, it is outdated. New one: Obama and Reid need more breasts.

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October 21, 2009 2:50 PM    in reply to Why oh why

Pelosi has big eggs!!


if case anyone ever listend to Bitch and Animal.

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October 21, 2009 3:14 PM    in reply to Why oh why

Huevos, anyone?

Based on context, could either mean "testicles" or, eggs.

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October 21, 2009 2:45 PM   

My Italian Grandma, God rest her soul, lived her whole eighty-three years in San Francisco, the last thirty or so in the Eighth Congressional District. She had balls: widowed young with two small boys, worked at Southern Pacific for thirty years, married a divorced man in the 1950's, was denied the sacraments until he died, and never let the Jesuits forget it. She loved Roosevelt and the New Deal, and hated Reagan--"that sonofabitch Reegan!" she called him. Never gave an inch; loved fiercely, laughed hard, and cooked. God, could she cook.

My Grandma would be immeasurably proud of her representative, Democrat Nancy Pelosi, for the steadfastness and smarts she has shown in advancing the cause of health care for all Americans. From where you sit, Grandma, I hope you can see this generation finish the work that yours began.

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October 21, 2009 2:54 PM   

I've had my doubts and criticisms about Pelosi in the past, but I have to say that if we get a real public option, she will deserve the credit. I have seen nobody else in the leadership willing to go to the mat for it.

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October 21, 2009 3:17 PM    in reply to fagelson

She's not exactly risking her political fortunes in SF by supporting a Public Option.

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October 21, 2009 3:21 PM    in reply to Dorn76

Which gives her no excuse for not pushing hard for it.

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October 21, 2009 4:24 PM    in reply to Schmed- ley

Agree, but it hardly qualifies as going out on a limb politically for her.

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October 21, 2009 5:08 PM    in reply to Dorn76

A fair point, but the public is by and large supportive of a public option, so how is it electorally dangerous for most Dems to support it? It is only "politically" dangerous in that it angers financial supporters (i.e., lobbyists) and perhaps other elected Dems who are afraid that they will be forced to do the right thing.

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October 21, 2009 3:00 PM   

If the White House was truly in agreement with Pelosi, don't you think they could easily get the final 8 votes in the House for the robust Public Option? Of course, they could.

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October 21, 2009 3:04 PM   

CF2K: That's a great comment. Thanks for posting. Sounds a bit like my late mom. It frustrates me so much that so many working people get suckered in by conservative nonsense; I like to see stories about those who never did.

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October 21, 2009 3:40 PM   

My sh** for brains Congress Critter, John Culberson, is running a poll on the homepage of his website. Vote for or against H.R. 3200. Only about 134 votes so far with the knuckle draggers in the lead by about 70% to 24%. http://culberson.house.gov You know what to do!!!


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October 22, 2009 1:52 AM    in reply to sford713

Well, somebody got the word out. Right now it's sitting at 434 votes total with 74% FOR HR 3200!

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October 21, 2009 3:40 PM   

Just donated another $50 to force Harry Reid to stand with Pelosi:

http://www.actblue.com/page/harryreidad

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October 21, 2009 3:50 PM    in reply to timba

Good for you, Timba. That's something you can be proud of (yes, I'm serious).

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October 21, 2009 3:54 PM   

I'm with fagelson; I've been a critic of Pelosi in the past, but she is (Heaven save us) showing actual, honest-to-God leadership on this issue. Could it be that the Democrats are actually getting a spine?

How ironic is it that the first Democrat of the Leadership to actually show some balls is a woman. A woman's place really is in the House, isn't it?

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October 21, 2009 3:57 PM   

as to those 8 votes needed:

here's a list of "undecideds" "lean yes" and lean no" from 10/5

http://www.openleft.com/upload/Copy_of_House_Targets_10.5.pdf

these are the people we need to be talking to today

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October 21, 2009 4:05 PM    in reply to izzatxeaux

But do we know who are "lean yes" as opposed to "lean no"?

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October 21, 2009 4:33 PM    in reply to kash79

no. not as of 10/5

per a Kossack diary, Eshoo is now in the firmly yes column, suspect the same for George Miller - both very loyal to Pelosi and were probably holding out until she took a firm stand

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October 21, 2009 6:05 PM   

Lord knows I've had plenty of criticism of Pelosi for a variety of things.

But damn if she hasn't been an absolute rock on healthcare.

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October 21, 2009 10:18 PM   

Damn, it's gonna feel good to reward Nancy's good behavior. I can hardly wait but I will, til the bill is signed.

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