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Clyburn: Stupak Amendment Won 10 Votes

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Rep. James E. Clyburn (D-SC)

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On Monday, I noted that 40 Democrats had voted for the Stupak amendment--which would prohibit low- and middle-class women from buying health insurance policies that cover abortion--and then voted for final passage of the health care bill. That's a large number, but a key question remained unanswered: How many of those 40 would have voted against the final bill if the Stupak amendment had failed, or not been given a vote?

Well, House Whip James Clyburn (D-SC) has some answers.

"It was not 40 votes that we were trying to get with this amendment it was 10 votes. And that's the fact," Clyburn said on MSNBC. "This language took us across the threshold of 218, but it was 10 people. It wasn't 40 people as has been reported."

Clyburn said that, without Stupak, there would have only been around 212 votes for the final bill, suggesting that, if the Stupak amendment is stripped in conference, House leaders will only need to convince a handful or two of Democrats to put their pro-life views aside and vote for the final legislation. That's significantly less than the 40-plus progressives who now say they will oppose the bill if the Stupak language stands.

Other Democrats also voted for Stupak amendment, but then turned around and voted against the final bill. Their objections run deeper than abortion issues, and presumably won't vote to pass the conference report unless the plan is dramatically changed in negotiations with the Senate.

Late update: Video below.

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52 comments

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November 11, 2009 10:30 AM   

Getting a pro-lifer to put his/her pro-life views aside is dang near impossible.

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November 11, 2009 12:56 PM    in reply to oskieoskie

That is because it is a sincere religious thing for them. (Or most of them.)

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November 11, 2009 2:31 PM    in reply to Overreach THIS!

I believe you are correct.

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November 11, 2009 2:41 PM    in reply to oskieoskie

Not for the exploiters, of course. And not for people who just hate Dems anyway and are using this as a vehicle for their hate.

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November 11, 2009 10:34 AM   

Thank you! THIS is the information that I'd wanted (for which I'd found all subsequent reporting wanting) since the gavel fell.

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November 11, 2009 10:50 AM   

All that shows is the folly of nominating hard core pro-lifers as Democratic candidates. We've been sold this big tent baloney. What's it get you? Republicrat health reform, financial reform, and to come? Escalating war.

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November 11, 2009 11:04 AM    in reply to bluebell

They aren't "nominated." Sometimes they're recruited by the party apparatchiks and sometimes they're not. Either way, ultimately, they have to face the voters of their district and, though it may pain you to hear it, many of those districts are filled with people who are otherwise very liberal but are nonetheless staunchly anti-abortion.

If they can't vote for a liberal who's against abortion, many of them will vote for the conservative. The more times they have to do that, the more likely it is that cognitive dissonance will push them to convince themselves that they like everything else that person stands for as well.

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November 11, 2009 11:31 AM    in reply to The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve

What it is is easy -- easy for some political hack to pretend he is pro-life and wave that issue around instead of getting out there and going door to door and working to solve the kitchen table issues that are destroying the middle class. The only idea the Democratic Party has had in the last 30 years is to try to win by echoing the Republican party and Karl Rove. The voters don't have to be troubled with what else the candidate stands for because the candidate doesn't stand for anything.

This is what we get - two pro-life war mad parties running the middle class into the ground driven by a bunch of religious zealots.

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November 11, 2009 12:50 PM    in reply to bluebell

Do you ever get tired of exaggerating and making shit up?

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November 11, 2009 12:57 PM    in reply to bluebell

The only idea the Democratic Party has had in the last 30 years is to try to win by echoing the Republican party and Karl Rove.

That is grossly unfair.

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November 11, 2009 1:11 PM    in reply to kash79

It's a lot less unfair than you want to believe. The DLC philosophy is based on how to make Democrats look more like Republicans not on how we can not only defeat their candidates but defeat their ideology. Obama is the end of ideology guy. He's post-partisan. He doesn't want to fight Club for Growth and Grover Norquist and AEI and Heritage ... he's want to make peace with them. They don't want peace. They want to win. They've got their pro-life Trojan horses doing their work for them in the Democratic Party and as always the Democrats roll over and roll to the right.

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November 11, 2009 1:17 PM    in reply to bluebell

Your tendency to make single brush stroke assertions doesn't really help in engaging in a reality-based argument.

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AJM

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November 11, 2009 12:55 PM    in reply to The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve

There is an advantage for Democrats among liberal women which is going to turn into antagonism if they are not respected as people. Think about the voting habits of the Greens -- the number of pro-choice Democrats is far larger and many feel strongly that they have been betrayed.

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November 11, 2009 11:25 AM   

I am strongly pro-choice, but I also strongly sympathize with pro-lifers who are deeply troubled by the prospect that their tax dollars may be used to pay for abortions. It is a question of one's beliefs, not so simple as right vs. wrong or Democrats vs. Republicans. We are wise to support a woman's right to choose and a physician's right to deliver medical services he or she believes are consistent with his or her medical training and ethics, but we are not wise to distribute payment for the procedure among those who object. The Hyde Amendment has worked much because it does separate the right to choose from the question of payment with tax dollars. Pro-choice can make abortion funds available on a private basis, and many women can pay all or part of their own costs. Don't ask others to abrogate their personal moral tenets; rather be satisfied to gain the right to exercise your own opposing view.

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November 11, 2009 11:32 AM    in reply to sunnysteve

What if I'm strongly against war or the death penalty? Why do I still have to fund these measures with my tax dollars?

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November 11, 2009 11:39 AM    in reply to Walter Mitty

Second.

People who are staunchly "pro-life" should also be horrified by the death penalty and war. The fact that they aren't reveals that they're not so much "pro-life" as they are "controlling what women do with their bodies".

And we're asked to ignore that hypocrisy. And not object when our tax dollars are used to fund morally reprehensible enterprises.

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November 11, 2009 5:11 PM    in reply to CT Voter

People who are staunchly "pro-life" should also be horrified by the death penalty and war.

For whatever little it is worth, you might be surprised at how many of us are.

And we're asked to ignore that hypocrisy. And not object when our tax dollars are used to fund morally reprehensible enterprises.

Suffice it to say, I cannot really disagree with you on this point. Until we start excepting war protesters from funding war, etc, it is not really fair to say that it is a violation of my sacrosanct conscience to make pro-lifers like myself subsidize abortion. This goes doubly so when the subsidy (such as it is) is as indirect a subsidy as the Stupak amendment was intended to prevent.

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November 11, 2009 6:37 PM    in reply to A Missouri voter

I wouldn't be surprised to find that you are, but among elected members of Congress? I don't see many anti-abortion, anti-war, anti-death penalty candidates. Hardly any at all, in fact. I'm not unsympathetic to this claim, but hypocrisy needs to be recognized.

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November 12, 2009 10:33 AM    in reply to CT Voter

Rep Stupak himself voted no on the Iraq War authorization and co-sponsored a measure to put a moratorium on Federal executions.

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November 11, 2009 11:50 AM    in reply to Walter Mitty

You don't even have to go that far afield. Christian Scientists might object to their tax dollars being used for ANY medical procedures. Should they get to dictate that no one can purchase health insurance that covers standard medical procedures? The Catholic church is officially against birth control. Should they be able to dictate that tax money not be spent on birth control or on vasectomies?

It's fine and good to protect the rights of minority groups. That's what the Bill of Rights is all about. But this is the tail wagging the dog.

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November 11, 2009 11:37 AM    in reply to sunnysteve

As I understand it, the problem is that this goes far beyond the Hyde amendment.

I'm pro-life too. I don't believe in killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis based on a lies but nobody gives a damn about my concience on that life issue.

This has nothing to do with morality. The only thing it's about is the Democratic party moving further and further to the right.

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November 11, 2009 12:08 PM    in reply to bluebell

I offer these two reads, if you're looking to wonk it up on the policy:

The Far Reach Of Stupak’s Amendment
http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2009/11/10/stupak-reac/

How The Stupak Amendment Changes The Status Quo
http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2009/11/11/stupak-amendment-changes/

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November 11, 2009 11:39 AM    in reply to sunnysteve

You have bought into a specious argument. No one is trying to have tax dollars used to fund and/or subsidize abortions. The pro-choice caucus is perfectly fine with the Hyde amendment which has banned that for more than 30 years.

Stupak is trying to go beyond the Hyde amendment and prevent women from buying policies that cover abortions with their OWN money, if those polices are purchased through the insurance exchange.

I am self-employed. Although I don't qualify for any kind of subsidy, I will likely purchase my insurance policy through the exchange set up by the government. If Stupak has his way, I won't be allowed to spend my own money for a policy that has abortion coverage.

Stupak is effectively trying to expand abortion restrictions and that's bullshit.

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November 11, 2009 11:54 AM    in reply to FreeRider

I strongly doubt that the Stupid, I mean Stupak amendment will stand. It's really pretty indefensible, and will probably wind up being scaled back to the Hyde amendment, which is bad enough.

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November 11, 2009 5:07 PM    in reply to FreeRider

You missed my point, which is to argue the merits of the Hyde Amendment, so we actually agree.

I also am not debating the merits of pro-life or pro-choice beliefs, nor whether all pro-lifers are consistent, sincere or complex thinkers. What I am saying is that the Stupak Amendment is not "wise". Our Constitution is quite clear about acceptance of war, but we do not require those who are sincerely opposed to killing to carry guns in war. Abortion is an extremely divisive issue, and we were "wise" to accept the Hyde Amendment as a way to separate the opposing views on abortion from debate on other policy issues that need to go forward.

Finally, there really are good people who are quite troubled by abortion; I hope we all are at some point in the continuum of life developing prior to birth. It is not a black and white issue, even for many of us who are pro-choice.

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November 11, 2009 5:21 PM    in reply to sunnysteve

If your post was responding to me, then you clearly missed MY point. I am not interested in debating Hyde. That's settled long ago. And to try and make this about whether you support abortion rights misses the mark.

No one in the pro-choice community is fighting over the Hyde amendment. They are angry that Stupak is going BEYOND the Hyde amendment. They can't do that.

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AJM

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November 11, 2009 8:24 PM    in reply to sunnysteve

At best you are pro-choice only to the point where the feelings of those who are anti-abortion are harrowed.

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AJM

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November 11, 2009 8:18 PM    in reply to FreeRider

Pro-choice groups are not totally fine with the Hyde Amendment. They simply recognized the futility of attempts to change it with the current composition of Congress.

The pro-choice side had been lead to believe that they had a bargain that the status quo would be held in place. The Democratic Leadership broke that bargain.

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November 11, 2009 8:45 PM    in reply to AJM

In terms of this healthcare bill, the pro-choice community is fine with the Hyde Amendment.

And there will be no effort to change the Hyde Amendment even if the there were 50 more Democrats in the caucus. Given how reproductive rights are being whittled away, trying to get the government to fund abortion is not a priority. Besides, there is no support for that. Even many in the pro-choice community don't believe the government should fund abortions.

In fact, although 80-85% of health insurance plans cover abortion services, less than 20% of women actually use that provision. They pay out of pocket for the procedure.

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AJM

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November 11, 2009 8:15 PM    in reply to sunnysteve

To me it is morally repugnant to fine a woman for exercising her right to choose by making her pay for that portion of her health care privately while everybody else pays through the government. Can I opt out of funding this insurance scheme?

Or, I'm pro-choice and willing to check a box on my tax return that says so -- can my taxes be directed to supply the funds for women who decide on abortion?

It's not their tax money alone -- it is also mine.

Short form, if they have the right to impose their moral dogmas on me I have a right to impose mine on them.

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November 11, 2009 12:37 PM   

I am strongly pro-choice, but I also strongly sympathize with pro-lifers who are deeply troubled by the prospect that their tax dollars may be used to pay for abortions

Utter non-sense. Your opinion is a perfect case on how the rightwing had succeeded in this country to clout the perceptions of the majority in this nation. The connotation "pro-life" fully distorts the intentions of those who want to oppose human rights.

People, especially on the right, are not "pro-lifers" because from climate change to schip to war and poverty there policies and positions have always worked against "life." Please, also don't believe for a second that this is a "morality" issue, this is a fundamental religious issue which is exploited by those who would use the same bibles to wipe their asses if that could get them the same number of votes as the issue of abortion. These people, in power, have no real convictions on the issue.

For the power holders, it is highly lucrative to keep igniting this "religous" and "culture wars," keep people divided.

Abortion the issue of severe complexity had been distilled down successfully by the rightwing as a pure black and white "pro versus anti" issue.

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November 11, 2009 1:22 PM    in reply to kash79

All debates of life and death are ultimately morality debates. We simply agree on what the moral position is in most cases. I don't want to get into a debate about abortion because it hurts the democratic party and the health care bill to switch the topic to abortion in this case. I will say this much.

The abortion debate is not a question of morality, it is a debate over power and duty. Even half of pro-choice people believe that abortion is wrong, they just believe that women should retain the power to abort their pregnancies if they want to. Pro-life people believe that women should not have that power.

That is the debate, it's not about whether abortion is wrong or not. It is about whether women should keep the power. And power is never voluntarily given away.

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November 11, 2009 1:33 PM    in reply to Darrius

All debates of life and death are ultimately morality debates.

But most debates in this country are not about life and death, it is a comfortable binirization to window-dress passive motives. You cannot separate the issue of abortion from gun control or capital punishment if it were a debate on life and death."Morality" used in these debates as a selective measurement to enforce majority religious beliefs that don't fully address issues of "life and death"


Anyway, I think we are saying the same thing.

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November 11, 2009 1:30 PM   

Enough is enough. The democratic party serves progressives interests better when they are in the minority than in the majority. Democrats in power are pushing legislation, that, if they were in the opposition they would be howling and fuming about. (e.g. SOX amendment, Stupal amd)
We must post committed primary challengers for all those who voted for the stupak amendment and/or voted against the house health care bill, not in order to keep them honest, but in a wholehearted attempt to oust them from power. I am beginning to think that Obama's incrementalism is elliptical for incremental regression... This is not a question of sacrificing the good for the perfect, but abominal negotiating tactics, giving up all your chips for virtually nothing.
Democrats will most likely lose their majority in 2010, primarily because of the blue dogs chasing of the center. Not only are they alienating the base, they are severly undercuting the credibility of the entire party in the eyes of independents. Ben Nelson's lies about the public option, are given much more credence than those of Fox news, and the Republican noise machine. The reason democrats are losing the heath care debate, and just about every other political debate, is NOT because of republican opposition , but their own supposed party centrists poisoning, undermining, undercuting reforms. Think of it in these terms: Would you want to buy a product from Apple, if some of their marketing directors were claiming that it was highly toxic ????? Even IF, such a treachorous saleperson were able to force Apple to change their product, the rational buyer would likely shop elsewhere: What kind of company or association would even harbor persons entertaining such allegedly malicious or recklessly indifferent intentions? Further, if Apple were hypothetically selling such dangerous products, why would the salesperson remain associated with them?
HEnce, Bill Nelson and the supposed centrists, are committing collective and individual suicide. The democratic party is losing credibility both with democrats and independents.

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November 11, 2009 1:38 PM    in reply to sanssouci0

I'm continually amazed to see people laugh at Republican "Hoffmanization" of races, then advocating that Dems do the same thing. If you think anything good can come from running a liberal against Ben Nelson, you're nuts. There's a word for a party that continually attacks centrists in their ranks in the name of ideological purity. That name is "minority party".

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November 11, 2009 1:51 PM    in reply to mans_best_friend

So what's the point of being a majority party again? Still got war and more war. Still got committee chairs after my reproductive right. Bankers still being bailed out. Still get to be indentured servants of the insurance industry. Anybody seen a labor bill around here lately? Were we going to do something on climate change? Gay rights - don't ask.

Seems to me all we've got are a bunch of Trojan horse wingnuts who call themselves "centrists" chairing committees. I can't tell you how much I want to campaign to keep Ben and Joe and Max in a nice office.

What will Ben do for Obama? Oh, I forgot! Support his escalation of the war!

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November 11, 2009 2:08 PM    in reply to bluebell

Your simplification is simply stunning. There is no magic button that one can push and all cards on every issue will fall on the progressive quarters. Obama's decision to close Guantanamo illustrates how difficult and complex these issues really are, especially in the current American political climate. It is very likely, despite good intentions, Obama may not be fully close Gitmo for years. It is very likely Iraq time table will lag behind, and despite progressive calls for a Afghanistan pull out, no one can claim it has a simple answer.

Your simplifications are divorced and frankly distort the complexity of issues at hand.

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November 11, 2009 2:23 PM    in reply to kash79

As the nuns taught me, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

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November 11, 2009 2:32 PM    in reply to bluebell

Exactly, all you have are good intentions. Kudos your nuns.

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November 11, 2009 2:11 PM    in reply to bluebell

Oh, no!!!! The glass is half empty!!!!

I'll start the list and anyone else who wants to add to it can chime in:

SCHIP got passed
Stimulus bill got passed
Cap and Trade is going to be passed
Health Care Reform will pass

While some of these might not be everything you wanted, they're one hell of a lot more than we would have gotten with the R's in charge. If you can't see the difference you need to get your eyes checked.

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November 11, 2009 2:20 PM    in reply to mans_best_friend

They move the ball 10 yards to the right and we move it back 5 yards to the left and cheer because we've moved it half way. Repeat for 30 years.

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November 11, 2009 10:21 PM    in reply to bluebell

You know why that may be the case? Declaring government is the problem and doing nothing but cut taxes and go to war whereas shouting empty crap like "Freedom!" to manipulate ignorant masses is far easier than formulating actual policy proposals about complex issues, convincing voters with various backgrounds, persuading and negotiating with lotta intertwined stake holders, passing them on the Hill, and implimenting them.

Reality is far less pretty and simple, and progress is far slower and more gradual, than you want it to be.

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November 11, 2009 2:20 PM    in reply to mans_best_friend

Not only have and/or will each of the above reforms be severly diluted, but they have inflicted major damage to the party in the way that they have been debated. In each instance, democrats have not been unified so that the final solution, although very pathetically moderate, has been portrayed as being very liberal by the media. Again, democrats are losing the semantic war for the definition of the center. I am not arguing for ideological purity, only for political tact. Democrats need to do their negotiating and horse-trading behind closed doors, and emerge only once they have brokered a deal which they can also support. Then, they are free to say: this deal isn't perfect from my perspective, but I negotiated for x, y, z, in favor of my viewpoint, or my constituents... This type of big-tent approach doesn't undermine the party.

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November 11, 2009 2:26 PM    in reply to sanssouci0

"I'm not a member of any organized political party. I'm a Democrat"
-Will Rogers (1935)

It was ever thus. Here's another one from the same venerable source:

"You've got to be optimist to be a Democrat, and you've got to be a humorist to stay one." (1934)

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November 11, 2009 2:31 PM    in reply to mans_best_friend

The Democratic party seems to have some affinity with the common saying about the Poles and their historical struggles for national independence: ignominious in victory, and heroic when in defeat....

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November 11, 2009 2:48 PM    in reply to sanssouci0

While the constant arguing among themselves and the poor message discipline can drive you nuts, in the end, that approach tends to produce changes that have a broad-based acceptance. The result is change that lasts. R's have been attacking Social Security and Medicare for decades without success.

Nothing has the power of a good idea. It will always eventually triumph, even if not as fast as we'd like. Contrast that with the R's, who have no truly good ideas, and whose accomplishments tend to be fleeting. All they can do is make a lot of noise and make life difficult for those trying to make real progress. But they can't stop it, no matter how hard they try. Progress may be a series of half-steps, but it's still better than going backwards, which is where the R's would take us.

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AJM

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November 11, 2009 8:33 PM    in reply to mans_best_friend

Want to sell that line about the eventual triumph of good in say 1929 Germany?

When the Democrats are taking us backwards as with Stupak it is time to fight like hell.

And,oh, by the way, that is how good triumphs when it does -- because someone stood up for it.

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November 11, 2009 3:09 PM    in reply to sanssouci0

Good luck with that approach. I agree with you entirely, but Democrats sometimes seem politically stupid.

Republicans, on the other hand, are quite good at seizing an issue, and turning it into the equivalent of "When did you stop beating your wife" frame so that Democrats twist into pretzels trying to answer a non-answerable question.

I don't particularly care of Alan Grayson's rhetoric, but it was an interesting change from the typical diluted and uncompelling Democratic behavior.

Of course, some will argue that the Dems are so milque-toast because they're not really doing enough. I don't think they're doing enough, either, but they're doing as much as they can, given who they are and who the Republicans are.

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November 11, 2009 4:38 PM    in reply to CT Voter

Those with no scruples will always have an advantage. The solution is NOT, as many have argued here, to be equally unscrupulous.

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November 11, 2009 5:15 PM    in reply to mans_best_friend

I don't know if you're directing that comment at me, but I wasn't advocating that Democrats be unscrupulous. I'm worn down by their continued inability to anticipate or prepare for Republican craziness. It's as if they continue to believe that Republicans are going to behave reasonably, and they prepare accordingly. That the media is somehow going to treat both sides as they should be treated, rather than the media equating the behaviors on both sides. How many years of bullshit is necessary before Democrats start being proactive?

It's an excellent approach to believe in the best of others, but by this point, they should anticipate that Republicans are going to bite whenever possible. Are Democrats in some sort of denial?

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November 11, 2009 1:46 PM   

What is a "liberal"? Who defines what a liberal is? Fox News? I would say that it is Ben Nelson: anyone to the left of a democratic centrists is a liberal. If the democrats were united, and had some resolve on a positive transformational agenda, the center would be shifted to the left. When democratic centrists like Nelson, publicly expression opposition to the party position, they are pushing the definition of a "centrist" and a "liberal" to the right!!!
If the democrats, Obama including, had any clue, they could have redefined, even if incrementally the center.
Keep in mind, that if your were to place the average democrat rep with his political, economic and social beliefs in any European country, he would a firm right-wing representative. The republican party is clearly on the same level as Lepen, Haidler, and Dutch right wing parties. Everything is relative, and the democrats are hopelessly losing the battle to define the center.

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November 11, 2009 2:30 PM   

It really isn't even a handful. Most of the "handful" would have been on board with the earlier language. They (mostly Sims rather than Stupak who everyone seems to admit is a Grade A Moron) saw the opportunity to push. They pushed and got their pound of flesh. But in the end there are other votes Leadership could pull in.

Many in Congress after the vote, when they got past the "anger", actually saw that Stupak and Sims were working a bluff. At this point, Leadership didn't want to call it. They think there are some things where they'll end up being the Bad Cop to the Senate in Conference. In turn, there are some things like this one where the Senate will be Bad Cop to the House.

John

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