TPMDC
Tea Partiers Admit Defeat In Health Care Fight?
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TPMDC just obtained an extraordinary email from inside the Tea Party Patriots movement. As the Senate prepares to open debate on a health care reform bill tomorrow, tea partiers appear to be admitting defeat in their push to stop reform and are promising a "change in tactics" movement leaders say will appease the "outrage and frustration" among tea partiers over the movement's failure to stop a Democratic health care bill from moving forward on a path to final passage.
From tonight's email, sent to tea partiers across the country:
We have heard a lot of outrage over the past several weeks from Tea Party Patriots around the country that no matter how loud we protest, no matter how often we go to DC, no matter how large our crowds are, Congress is not listening to us. We have heard that Sen. Blanche Lincoln's office is getting phone calls 15 - 1 asking her to vote NO on cloture and against the health care bill. Despite what their constituents want, Congress appears to be doing what they want rather than representing us....
We understand your outrage and frustration. We are working on plans to change tactics while keeping the pressure on the Senate for Health Care, Cap and Trade, and the Central Valley Water issue. We will continue to work on those plans over the week of Thanksgiving. Stay posted as we work with local coordinators to announce additional plans and ideas.
The group also backed off plans for another Captiol Hill Tea Party tomorrow, which the "National Coordinator Team" of the tea partier movement called for on Friday.
More from tonight's email:
We had people calling and emailing over the last day and a half asking us to help organize an event in DC for the Cloture Vote. So, we did and [National Coordinator] Diana Reimer will be in DC....
There are a few important clarifications to note about this call to action:
* Who Should Go to DC? This is primarily intended for those who are within driving distance of DC and want to be there tomorrow when the Senate votes in the cover of darkness on cloture.
In the email announcing the D.C. action on Friday, the Tea Party leaders called on "Patriots from across America" to "Converge on the Capitol" during the cloture vote. Tonight's email, which came with the subject line "CLARIFICATION on Previous Email" dialed back the call to action in Friday's message. Organizers write that they send the second email after the "numerous questions about our previous email from earlier today regarding converging on the Capitol" from tea partiers across the country.
The organizers tell tea partiers not to ignore the other events already planned for the day of the cloture vote in the Senate:
Million Med March There is the Million Med March happening across the country tomorrow. Many of our local Tea Party groups are participating in the Million Med March locally. We do NOT in any way want to take away from a local group's plans with a last minute call to action. So, be sure to check under your state for what is happening locally in your area.
But the "clarification" goes beyond tomorrow's planned rally. In the email tonight, tea party organizers spell out the ways members have been upset with the results of the tea parties so far.
More from the email:
[T]he most concerning thing we have heard from our membership is that Congressional staff are flat out refusing to listen to their constituents. There have been reports of local offices closing when members show up to talk or protest, when calling DC the phone is never answered, when calling local offices the voice mail is perpetually full, and other such incidents.
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storm
November 21, 2009 12:36 AM
Central Valley Water issue?
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CityGuy
November 21, 2009 11:36 AM in reply to storm
Really, WTF is that issue?? But politicians have heard the Tea Baggers, but even the Blue Dogs now realize that this crowd didn't vote for them, or Obama, in the first place. And the Tea Bag crowd already lost their election, back in November '08.
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TheRealFish
November 21, 2009 1:11 PM in reply to storm
Half the produce for the US is grown in California's Central Valley. The Central Valley Project is US Bureau of Reclamation federal water project that feeds water to this area. There are restrictions on CVP operations to protect threatened and endangered fish. The reactionaries suggest the restrictions favor fish over people (and factory farms) that are drying up.
You know, same old Industry v. Conservationist fight that flares up wherever factory farms or mines or oil drillers want greater access to protected lands. And, also "of course," ignoring the fact that there's a global warming drought going on and killing off the silver darters or whatever won't make one whit of difference to how much water is still not available.
The corporatists (that fund the TPP and other such groups) are only interested in land grabs.
Here's an interesting letter to the editor from the WSJ slamming the TPP-backed actions.
Here is Interior's page on the project.
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calbearinillinois
November 21, 2009 3:05 PM in reply to TheRealFish
And the TPP position simply ignores science and reality (there's a change). The only reason there's any agriculture in the Valley (which is basically arid) and LA (which is a desert) is because of a 18th century model of riparian rights that didn't factor in the impact consumption downstream has on upstream aquifers like the one of a kind Sacramento Delta and the delta smelt.
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JNagarya
November 21, 2009 4:29 PM in reply to storm
Otherwise, I'll bet you can say:
disarray.
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soms
November 21, 2009 12:36 AM
Teabaggers ran out of balls ...I mean bags or what.
This is hilarious.
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JNagarya
November 21, 2009 4:31 PM in reply to soms
Collapse and disarray.
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soms
November 21, 2009 12:48 AM
I guess they couldn't get enough holocaust pictures for tomorrow and they have run out of Obama=Hitler pictures too.
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JNagarya
November 21, 2009 4:32 PM in reply to soms
Collapse and disarray.
And donut shortage.
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ericf
November 21, 2009 1:30 AM
Are members of Congress not listening, or are they listening and seeing the teabaggers as a bunch of delusional wankers? You want to complain your demonstrations aren't getting the results you want? At least you get heavy media coverage. Millions marched on the eve of the invasion of Iraq to try to stop the war, and they were neither heeded nor much reported on.
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JEP07
November 21, 2009 11:19 AM in reply to ericf
I was in some of those marches in California, I have a video of about five hundred people in a very well organized local event, with bands and speakers and a giant group dance.
If it had been a 'bagger event, the media would have been there. But since it was a REAL grassroots happening, not a corporate sponsored fake, there were no reporters or pundits in attendance.
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JNagarya
November 21, 2009 4:34 PM in reply to JEP07
I don't know about you, but I'm going to overcome my despair by watching the huge teabagger rally crowds fair and balanced FOX has the mista -- er -- courage to report!
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Dabb
November 21, 2009 6:04 AM
Hey I'm not a teabagger, and I get those "full mailboxes" when I call too. Could it be that the mailboxes ARE full? omg what a concept!
ohhhhh these teabaggers give me a headache.
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JNagarya
November 21, 2009 4:35 PM in reply to Dabb
It's a conspiracy!
Or its all those teabags . . .
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kfreed
November 21, 2009 6:33 AM
All tuckered out?
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Gilead
November 21, 2009 7:06 AM
The image of sanctimonious lawmakers standing on the steps of the United States Capitol unable to recite the Pledge of Allegiance and conflating the Declaration of Independence with the Constitution must have been a nightmare for the corporate PR firms behind the Tea-Party messaging.
The lobbyists must be reevaluating Tea-Party marketing strategy.
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JNagarya
November 21, 2009 4:39 PM in reply to Gilead
"conflating the Declaration of Independence with the Constitution"
That is an important awareness, as the two docuemtns (in between which came the Articles of Confederation) are largey contrary to each other. The first calls for "revolution," and the second prohibits it.
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Icon
November 21, 2009 8:33 AM
Maybe they're getting the hint that protests have little to no effect in influencing politicians?
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Kinkistyle
November 21, 2009 8:52 AM in reply to Icon
They are influencing politicians with any amount of scruples to run in the opposite direction.
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JNagarya
November 21, 2009 4:40 PM in reply to Icon
Collapse and disarray.
And indigestion caused by fatty donuts.
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Silence
November 21, 2009 8:57 AM
There is no loss of strength. Money? Yes. Most of these folks pay their way to DC in a terrible economy. The organizers arrange for the buses, but the people pay for their own fares. Overnight parking in DC runs between $30-40$ per night.
Lawmakers are ignoring the taxpayers at their own peril.
For every one person at the 9.12 march, there are 15 others planning to attend next year. Hotels are $100-$400 per night and families must save up for a year to make this event.
What you folks don't seem to understand is that Americans are fed up with the corruption and looting by govt.
Govt is not the answer, it's the problem.
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JohnW1141
November 21, 2009 9:09 AM in reply to Silence
Silence,
keep up the good work, hopefully we can get a Palin/Beck ticket in 2012 and get the Kenyan born Muslim Obama out of the White House. The special election in NY's 23rd Congressional district was just the beginning!
John the Patriot
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Silence
November 21, 2009 9:39 AM in reply to JohnW1141
I will personally cover the expenses of 5 families for the 9.12 march next year. Hotel rooms, transportation and food. The following day, these fine patriots will enjoy time together at the museums.
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JEP07
November 21, 2009 9:46 AM in reply to Silence
Isn't that "social-ism" Silence?
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Silence
November 21, 2009 9:49 AM in reply to JEP07
No. It's called generosity. These are families hit hard by this never-ending recession and want to make their voices heard.
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JEP07
November 21, 2009 10:13 AM in reply to Silence
Forget paying their protest expenses, why don't you buy each of them a health insurance policy? And unless I miss my guess, the 401K's those families once invested in, were halved under the Bush administration.
Why weren't you protesting then? Or is the issue really Obama, not "government."
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Silence
November 21, 2009 10:20 AM in reply to JEP07
I provide full health insurance coverage for 92 families. How many do you cover?
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JEP07
November 21, 2009 10:32 AM in reply to Silence
Are you saying you personally cover 92 families out of your own pocket?
What you really mean is that you are an employer whose company offers health care plans.
But in reality, it is the hard work and daily toil of your 92 employees that provides you with your resources in the first place. THEY provide the labor that creates the resources that pay for their own healthcare, not you. You just sign the checks.
Typical Republican businessman, believes the benefits his company offers is some sort of personal gift he magnanimously gives to his employees, not something they earn every day while they make you rich.
Silence, I think you are a true patriot, and I respect your sincerity. You are a very good example of the Republican party I grew up in. But those fakes and phonies you defend are just as good an example of the reasons the R's are flailing and losing members.
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JEP07
November 21, 2009 10:40 AM in reply to JEP07
BTW, wouldn't your bottom line grow if you didn't have to pay for that health insurance? You probably think the French are wussies, but their business owners, your counterparts in France, DO NOT HAVE TO PAY FOR HEALTH INSURANCE! Same with the Brits.
Sure, it comes from taxes, so everyone pays part of it, But no employer is saddled with the sole responsibility of keeping up with the industry's burgeoning cost.
If you could only see that universal health care would free you from that burden, and increase your wealth, it might shed a whole new light on your understanding.
I would think someone like you would relish the idea of single-payer health care.
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Silence
November 21, 2009 11:00 AM in reply to JEP07
I have no problem covering health insurance for my fine, productive American workers. Most of they build, 90%, is exported. In effect, the Chinese and Europeans actually pay for their coverage.
My employees do earn their coverage and I am happy to provide it for them. Could I get away with providing less, especially in this job market, yes.
The reason I attended the health Care TEA party in DC was because my employees are fearful that they will lose their current coverage and be tossed into a into single payer European-like system. Many of them travel frequently to Europe, on service calls, so they understand the extreme deficiencies of nationalized health care.
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JerrySumpter
November 21, 2009 2:47 PM in reply to Silence
Silence,
Your motives might be genuine, but your perspective is honestly missing some important information. No one wants you to crash and burn - we all want to enjoy a level of success.
I am an American citizen but I've also lived in Europe for many years of my life. Let me tell you - I'm never worried when I have to go to the doctor in Europe. I've even experienced a 3 day stay in a hospital in Spain - and let me tell you about my experience. The doctor made a house-call to check on me and had an ambulance take me to the hospital for dehydration from gastroenteritis. I was extremely sick. In days I recuperated and I paid almost nothing for the entire thing. DON'T PROFESS TO KNOW WHAT YOU KNOW LITTLE ABOUT PERSONALLY!
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SleepinJeezus
November 21, 2009 10:37 AM in reply to Silence
I've worked for people such as Silence. My guess is that these people earn every bit of whatever health insurance coverage Silence "provides." And I'll bet they pay the taxes that covers the tax cuts for the wealthy passed under the Bush Administration as well. And yet, Silence wants more. Go figure.
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Silence
November 21, 2009 11:26 AM in reply to SleepinJeezus
I want more? How is that?
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mjshep
November 21, 2009 12:44 PM in reply to Silence
So I suppose you were against the Bush tax cuts that bankrupted the government and caused our massive deficits and primarily benefited people like you?
Or do you really want more?
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Silence
November 21, 2009 1:14 PM in reply to mjshep
With those tax cuts, I was able to double our workforce, increase R&D and buy new production equipment. How is that bad?
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ohyeathatsright
November 21, 2009 3:04 PM in reply to Silence
Did you miss the part about bankrupting the economy? Congratulations for staying afloat, but seriously? Have you no heart for your fellow Americans who don't work for or are not related to you?
Are your employees afraid of losing their health care? Well since you're the one that's providing it to them, I guess they could just ask you right? Are you going to pull the plug if a public option passes?
You take so much personal responsibility for them, which I absolutely respect; but their not worried that they government is going to take away their healthcare, they're worried that YOU are. Are you?
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Silence
November 21, 2009 4:58 PM in reply to ohyeathatsright
Most of my employees have been with me for at least 8 years. I promised that I would not take their coverage and dump them into a public option. If they lose this coverage, it will not because I broke my promise.
By attending the TEA parties, I am demonstrating my commitment to this promise and to them.
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JEP07
November 21, 2009 9:46 PM in reply to Silence
"dump them into a public option."
bwahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAhahaha!!!
That is precious.
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JEP07
November 21, 2009 10:15 PM in reply to JEP07
Colbert, is that you?
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ohyeathatsright
November 23, 2009 7:18 PM in reply to Silence
Why would they lose their coverage then?
I can only think of 2 reasons why they would lose their existing coverage...
1) You don't follow the [likely] employer mandate to provide your employees with coverage. Which would only happen if YOU decided to give up that coverage for your employees. IE, you break the law to make a political point at the expense of your long term employees.
2) Your company goes under in general, whereupon your employees lose their provided coverage anyway.
Please elaborate how HCR is instilling fear of loss for your employees.
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mjshep
November 21, 2009 3:08 PM in reply to Silence
I think you're lying.
R&D, payroll from "doubling your workforce," and buying new production equipment are all expenses which come out of pre-tax money. The tax cuts would have no effect on that as you wouldn't have paid any tax on income used for those expenses in any case. Anybody who's run a business for three weeks knows that.
In fact, higher marginal rates make those type of investments more attractive, not less because what you get to keep after not making those investments is less, compared to the benefit those investments provide..
If you're saying the cuts made the economy boom so much that it enabled that expansion the data simply does not support your case. Check the numbers for job creation, business expansion and production (except for the interest rate fueled real estate bubble and associated construction industry boom - but you're not in construction, are you?) since the cuts. If you actually have a business, and it boomed during this period, it wasn't from tax cuts. Unless you make yachts, that is. And if so, boy you must be hurting now.
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Silence
November 21, 2009 5:11 PM in reply to mjshep
It's not the entire equation, but it is certainly a large part. Every time I borrow money to pay taxes, it sucks money from the pot and adds nothing to the business.
You know, as an accountant, this is very common practice for growing businesses.
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ohyeathatsright
November 23, 2009 12:13 PM in reply to Silence
Why are you borrowing money to pay taxes? Taxes should be factored into your expenses and you should be keeping an account with your estimated taxes in there. That way that money will earn for you in the meantime. You need a new accountant. He's obviously not adding much to your bottom line.
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Silence
November 21, 2009 5:38 PM in reply to mjshep
Are you asking me or telling me what my business is. Was there a drop off in revenue over this past year? Yes. Will my profits remain almost the same for the year? Yes.
Accountants have always been a great source of amusement to me. My accountant spends days analyzing bills of materials. Then, he proudly walks into my office with the latest "cost analysis" of each product. Before the numbers even roll off his tongue, I spout off the cost of each one within a few bucks.
The man who designs and builds it, knows all.
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JohnW1141
November 21, 2009 4:21 PM in reply to SleepinJeezus
Sleep,
I think silence is so full of shit his eyes are brown, kind of a legend in his own mind.
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SleepinJeezus
November 21, 2009 4:49 PM in reply to JohnW1141
and I know you are right, john. Employer, my ass. He probably thinks he's an astronaut, too, simply because he's taking up space.
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Dave Keehn
November 21, 2009 10:24 AM in reply to Silence
Any chance these patriots will put a peaceful visit to the Holocaust Museum on their agenda.
It’s important to be reminded how hate and intolerance can and has lead to horrific consequences.
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Silence
November 21, 2009 10:29 AM in reply to Dave Keehn
Yes. They will visit the holocaust museum. I would like them see, first hand, how the "utopia" of socialism is achieved.
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de TOQUEville
November 21, 2009 10:43 AM in reply to Silence
The profound depth of your ignorance is staggering.
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Peter Principle
November 21, 2009 3:40 PM in reply to de TOQUEville
No, not really.
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JEP07
November 21, 2009 10:47 AM in reply to Silence
Oh, so now, universal health care is somehow equal to the holocaust? Providing medical service is tantamount to gassing a million people?
Do you have any idea how outrageous that sounds?
I think you need to stand down and take a closer look at recent history, particularly the last election.
You and your fellow Chamber champions lost. Just how much of your enthusiasm is just a cover for bitter sore-loserness.
Louisgirls' right again, in her comment above. http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/11/tea-partiers-declare-defeat-on-health-care.php#comment-3678352
You and the Chamber had your shot, and in the process of installing and genuflectying before the Bush family, created this mess. Give someone else a chance to fix the mess you all made.
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Silence
November 21, 2009 11:12 AM in reply to JEP07
Our current budget is unsustainable. We all know what happened when things became "unsustainable" in Europe. People were eliminated by the 10 of millions. In fact, Stalin exterminated simply because he didn't want other heads of state to see his massive poverty.
I am not saying that health care is a massacre plan and I don't think Obama is planning exterminations. However, the path that he is taking us on could easily open the door for another Stalin.
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JEP07
November 21, 2009 11:33 AM in reply to Silence
"easily open the door for another Stalin."
Easily? maybe in your fearful mind.
What you really mean is that your misguided conservatism is threatened by progress, and to avoid that progress you will compare our current administraton to one of the most evil mass murderers in recent history.
Here's a great example of the egregious ladder of relativity you and your ilk constantly foist upon us.
"Our current budget is unsustainable. We all know what happened when things became "unsustainable" in Europe. People were eliminated by the 10 of millions."
You descend from budget woes all the way to mass murder in three easy sentences. It is this type of outrageous equivocation that makes your whole party and their Congresscritters seem like such sore losers.
The fact is, the closest thing to the scenario you posit was the Patriot(R) Act.
Seriously, you and yours lost. Get over it and if you ever want to restore any semblance of credibility, stop equating your personal political losses to the violent deaths of millions of innocent people.
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Silence
November 21, 2009 1:08 PM in reply to JEP07
By progress, do you mean poverty?
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ohyeathatsright
November 21, 2009 3:17 PM in reply to Silence
By your definition of prosperity do you imply the housing bubble of 2005? Or the financial bubble that held out until 2008?
I hope you struck it rich during that time; unfortunately many of your fellow American struck out.
Don't you think that it's worth trying to retool things so it doesn't happen again? Or do you still feel like market regulation of activities that are tantamount to stealing (unscrupulous mortgage underwriters, derivative trading markets, and TARP) and will lead to the execution of millions in modern free world societies?
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SleepinJeezus
November 21, 2009 11:45 AM in reply to Silence
Please show me your past advocacy for a reduction in the Defense Budget and the opposition to the unfunded Bush tax cuts for the wealthy. Then, perhaps, we can take seriously your concern that the budget is unsustainable. Otherwise, you are simply advocating for the Republican agenda, and this approach to governance was turned away at the polls last November.
It sucks to lose an election, I know. But at least have the courage to be consistent in your arguments in opposition to the winning side. You simply can't abide spending money like a drunken sailor under Bush and then scream about "unsustainable budgets" the moment the opposition assumes power. This is doubly so in the present situation wherein Bush policies ran the whole damned economy into the ground and government bailouts and stimulus expenditures are required just to limit the damage.
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JEP07
November 21, 2009 12:23 PM in reply to SleepinJeezus
"You simply can't abide spending money like a drunken sailor under Bush and then scream about "unsustainable budgets" the moment the opposition assumes power."
hear hear!
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mjshep
November 21, 2009 12:47 PM in reply to JEP07
Being a "conservative' means never having to say you're sorry.
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Silence
November 21, 2009 1:07 PM in reply to JEP07
I do not abide by any spending that exceeds a reasonable % of GDP.
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JNagarya
November 21, 2009 5:04 PM in reply to Silence
Asshole:
FDR saved capitalism from its unregulated self. President Obama has no alternative but to do exactly the same.
And what does your ilk do? It descends to the ludicrous of calling them "socialist" and "Commie" -- anti-capitalist!
If you had any business sense beyond greed and self-aggrandizement -- and your claim to be a businessperson was blown out of the water above -- you'd see how misinformed and stupid you are. You are protesting against your own interests!
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TheRealFish
November 21, 2009 1:19 PM in reply to Silence
Oh, yeah. Stalin was a Compromiser In Chief just like Obama — and all the Dems.
The Dems are so "ideologically pure" that their tent contains very conservative, very moderate and very liberal members, certainly typical of any totalitarian regime like Stalin's.
Yeah. Right. Really, you ought to question the underlying logic of the terrorist talking points to which you subscribe.
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JNagarya
November 21, 2009 4:59 PM in reply to Silence
You're an ignornat jerk.
Clues:
Several of the US staunchest allies have social systems consisting of the following elements:
1. Monarchy.
2. Democractically-elected parliament.
3. Socialist economies.
Those staunch allies -- none of which have committed haulocausts -- have such foreign names as:
1. Britain.
2. Denmark.
3. Norway.
4. Sweden.
And a few facts concerning same:
Britain was an enemy of Hitler, and he bombed the hell out of it. Denmark was occupied by the Nazis -- throughout which occupation it was subjected to guerilla warfare by the Danes. Ditti Denmark for Norway.
Sweden was officially neutral, but actually assisted the allies.
Last but not least, Winston Churchill, who was an enemy to Hitler, and to whom Hitler was an enemy, was a socialist.
What you don't get: democracy is a political system; socialism, like capitalism, is an economic system. They are not the same thing. Therefore, as shown, democracy can exist with several different forms of economic systems.
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JNagarya
November 21, 2009 4:52 PM in reply to Silence
Hitler was not a socialist. Socialism is LEFT of center; Hitler was far RIGHT lunatic fringe.
Turn off FOX and get an education in objective reality and actual history.
Not so by the way, ass: FOX is owned by billionaire IMMIGRANT Rupert Murdoch, and his propaganda agenda is poison for our political discourse and democracy.
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JEP07
November 21, 2009 9:55 PM in reply to JNagarya
"Hitler was far RIGHT lunatic fringe."
Propped up in the first place by military/industrialists, including some Americans.
Some of whom we know still today.
I'm just sayin'...
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Silence
November 22, 2009 9:16 AM in reply to JEP07
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkUJEDYBnBQ
Just sayin'
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JNagarya
November 21, 2009 4:46 PM in reply to Silence
They aren't patriots, jackass. They are illiterate America-hating dupes, exactly as are you.
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Kuyleh
November 21, 2009 11:03 AM in reply to Silence
The delusion has never been so clear...Americans are tired of the corrupt and looting government. Yeah. But it was ok when Bush was in office, huh? Now it's bad...Now that you and yours aren't doing the looting.
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TheRealFish
November 21, 2009 1:52 PM in reply to Silence
Not listening to the taxpayers? Really? Hm.
So I suppose that the polls that show that 54% (or thereabout) of all of Blanche Lincoln's constituents (this includes Repugs and Indies) favor a strong public option open to everyone, or that about 75% of her Dem base favor the same certainly does suggest she's not listening to her constituents. I give you that.
However, about that anti-democratic (that IS a small "d" there) mantra started by corporatists like Reagan that the government is not a solution to the problem, it is the probem: Are you saying you are part of the problem like Reagan did? After all, the "government" is supposed to be "We the People."
What Reagan said is that the people of this country are the problem, and set about correcting that problem by turning over (redistributing) all the wealth up to the top 1-2% of corporate looters of the treasury or, as Republican Teddy Roosevelt put it 97 years ago, the common wealth — the resources of this country that belong to "We the People," all the citizens of the country.
That is also why he suggested that those who derive greatest benefit from the vast resources of the country owe the populace, through taxation, a gratitude debt greater than all others much as would be owed through any other land-lease debt owed to the owners of the land. We the People.
He was most correct. Reagan was wrong. Reagan began this newest phase of rule by Robber Barons that is little different from those Robber Barons that TR opposed nearly a century ago. It is time to end the current rule of the Robber Baron corporatists that Reagan and all neos since have allowed to take over our government.
Most sadly, those like yourself who appear to oppose the reigning-in of these corporate thieves are actually also opposing tax payers actually having some level of control restored to us over their greed.
Accountability, BTW, is not a totalitarian thing, it is a rule of law and rule of the people thing.
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JNagarya
November 22, 2009 8:40 AM in reply to TheRealFish
So I suppose that the polls that show that 54% (or thereabout) of all of Blanche Lincoln's constituents (this includes Repugs and Indies) favor a strong public option open to everyone, or that about 75% of her Dem base favor the same certainly does suggest she's not listening to her constituents. I give you that.
_____
Essential point: a Congressperson -- Senator or Representative -- does have the prerogative, or discretion, to vote their conscience. And that can be a good thing. I think of the delegate from GA who was asked (twice) whether he was for or against John Adams'/Massachusetts' "radical" proposal for independence from Britain.
The delegate, being politic, said that it seemed the people of GA were divided on the question: they were against it, and he was for it. And then said that, until he had further information, he felt he should vote their way (and he did).
Later he would vote his conscience -- rather than the view of his constituents -- for independence.
That "liberty" is often bashed, but the basher omits some facts:
A congressperson tends to have more information on an issue than does her/his constituents back in their state/district, so has a better understanding of the issue than they. (Add in the frequent necessity of horsetrading: compromise by giving support to another congressperson's initiative in order to get their support for one's own. And add in, of course, lobbyists' pressures.) So oftentimes when a congressperson votes differently than those he represents would want, it is because he is correct and they are wrong.
Lincoln, though, is clearly playing some game that's too close to the vest for us to see: the majority in her state are for a public option; so for her to deny that, or be cautious about it, is a puzzle (and, as I'm for the option, wrong).
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Peter Principle
November 21, 2009 3:37 PM in reply to Silence
What you folks don't seem to understand is that Americans are fed up with the corruption and looting by govt.
Gee, that must be why they voted for the party of government in '06 and '08.
When you guys win a REAL election -- instead of a couple of off-off-year gubernatorial races -- then you can tell us what Americans are or are not fed up with.
Or do you have some sort of national telepathy net that tells you what Americans are thinking? On second thought, given the overall mental health of your movement, maybe you shouldn't answer that question.
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JNagarya
November 21, 2009 4:44 PM in reply to Silence
According to our founding document, the US Constitution (and your state stipulates the same), We the people are the gov't.
It's no wonder you misguided America-haters vote against your own interests: you oppose We the people in favor of the mega-wealthy looters who buy you your dollar-a-dozen donuts.
Do us a favor, Silence, by showing integrity instead of hypocrisy: be yourself by shutting the fuck up.
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realist
November 21, 2009 9:17 AM
Millions of meds available, why don't they just take theirs and chill out?
The wingers ignore the two TABOR (taxpayer bill of rights) referendums that were soundly defeated Nov. 3 in Washington and Maine.
John: Calling yourself a patriot doesn't make you one; it only makes one laugh.
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CVille Dem
November 21, 2009 9:43 AM in reply to realist
SHHH! A Palin/Beck ticket? Stock up on popcorn!
Let the cliches begin!
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lousgirl84
November 21, 2009 9:43 AM
To John and Sllence - There was an election in November 08 and we won by 9 million votes. Elections have consequences. Get over and deal with it. We had to for 8 years and now its our turn.
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Silence
November 21, 2009 10:03 AM in reply to lousgirl84
I can assure you that further destruction of our economy is not what these voters had in mind. The effective unemployment rate is now well over 17%.
Obama used many words during his campaign. The true meaning of these words are understood only by those well-studied in 20th century European history or by those who were unfortunate enough to be victims of these words.
People are waking up and they don't like what they see. I can't say I blame them.
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de TOQUEville
November 21, 2009 10:50 AM in reply to Silence
Hahaha. Thank God someone out there knows how to translate Obama's scary code-words. How did you find this arcane knowledge? Newsmax? Jonah Goldberg?
You are a putz.
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Silence
November 21, 2009 11:13 AM in reply to de TOQUEville
History. Have you ever read one of those books?
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mjshep
November 21, 2009 1:01 PM in reply to Silence
What history teaches, as you would know if you had in fact studied it, is that increasingly large disparities between the general population and the rich, often caused by rampant, unregulated free markets tending towards monopolies, feudal oppression, itself a form of monopoly, or crony capitalism combined with taxation so low it fails to create enough funds to operate a functioning state which is then forced to ignore the needs of the general populace (such as that which brought us the Great Depression), are the greatest causes of social unrest.
Conservative policies tend to exacerbate these problems, while progressive taxation and liberalism tend to ameliorate them.
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Silence
November 21, 2009 1:17 PM in reply to mjshep
I am Lithuanian. I lived it.
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mjshep
November 21, 2009 3:21 PM in reply to Silence
Hey, my dad was from Lithuania! Kapsukas, to be precise.
But what does the system in the old LSSR under soviet domination have to do with anything we are talking about here? What you lived through in a satellite nation, undemocratically controlled by others, is in no way comparable or relevant to what goes on in this country or Obama's ideas. There's just no comparison.
If you think health care reform is in some way equivalent to elements in the soviet "communist" system you are delusional.
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calbearinillinois
November 21, 2009 3:24 PM in reply to Silence
Then you of all people should know that what led to the rise of both facism and communism was the lack of care provided to the lower classes and laissez faire capitalism in the middle and upper classes (coupled in the case of the Weimar republic to foreign debt imposed on it at the end of WWI). Neither the czar nor the Weimar fell because of any efforts at providing social services or stability - rather, it was the lack of responsiveness to such needs that made the governments subject to attack and the rise of nationalism. Without the New Deal, the US may well have followed into a more radically nationalist/isolationist or socialist state, based on the success of both the No Nothings and Debs style socialists. Just like Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union has been plagued by rampant corruption which has led a large percentage of the population to long for a return to nationalism and even communism. You can't speak of the evils of communism or facism without also acknowledging how capitalism/feudalism help create the conditions for those idealogies.
My father was born in Latvia in 1942, so I do know how easily you can see anything as fascism or communism in disguise, but get real. This isn't Stalin deporting 100s of thousands of people for speaking out against him, or Hitler using a hatred of minorities to support a crazed vision of world domination. This is making some basic changes that would help the poorest Americans most.
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JNagarya
November 21, 2009 5:25 PM in reply to Silence
In Lithuania?
And what did you do for Lithuania, patriot, but run away to America and into the arms of the alternative: the far-right lunatic fringe authoritarianism championed by anti-Commie Hitler?
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JEP07
November 21, 2009 10:31 PM in reply to JNagarya
snagged a LITHUANIAN troll!
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JNagarya
November 21, 2009 5:23 PM in reply to Silence
Name one YOU'VE read, phony.
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JNagarya
November 21, 2009 5:14 PM in reply to Silence
You aren't well-studied in 20th century European history, else you'd know, as example, that Britain, Denmark, Norway, and Sweden, which have socialist economies, are not tyrannies, and have never engaged in extermination of their peoples.
What you're "well-studied" in is the far-right lunatic fringe false propaganda, funded by billionaire immigrant Rupert Murdoch, and spewed by the sewer FOX fraud on America.
In short: you don't know what you're talking about. What you substitute for knowing is being a dupe and a liar.
Reagan- and Bushitonomics implemented unsustainable economic policies. What you -- we -- are seeing is the bill come due. That President Obama and the Democrats inherited that bill doesn't make them responsible for the making of it.
We the people are the gov't. You oppose We the people -- which is why, predictably, you are part of a tiny minority screaming hysterically out of your bottomless well of bilious stupidity.
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JEP07
November 21, 2009 11:58 AM in reply to lousgirl84
louisgirl, I may be wrong, but I think "John" was just snarkin'.
As for the aptly misnamed "Silence," read what he wrote about who pays taxes, your admonition above really fits in his case. we all need to realize this fellow is about as close to a real wingnut stereotype as we've seen here at TPM.
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JEP07
November 21, 2009 10:07 AM
I'm going out on a limb here to suggest the REAL grassroots aganst healthcare reform simply does not include enough people to create the kinds of crowds they need so Fox doesn't have to fake the turnout.
While the astroturfers can not afford to pay that many people enough to both show up and at the same time, keep them in Silence about their subterfuge.
It is like some seven-headed demon right out of scripture or fiction, with each head alternately spitting fire at the White House and Congress, then turning on each other,
And since they won't work together (Beck's 'baggers just won't give it up for Bachman's 'baggers) and they keep organizing events from different heads, they will never get the kind of crowd that showed up at the well organized protest of the 2004 Republican convention.
And why is the real grassroots side of the 'bagger phenomenon now fading so quickly from the scene?
BECAUSE SO MANY OF THEM REALIZED THEY WERE PROTESTING AAINST THEIR OWN BENEFIT!!!
It is one thing for them to protest against big-spending and billionaire bailouts and the like, but when they start protesting against health care, the irony of it all makes its way even through their 'bagger brainwashing.
In essence, by backing off of this issue, the real grassroots is unwittingly serving notice to the fakes that they won't be pawned again. When the fakes tried to direct the real grassroots against an issue that they themselves are immediately affected by, it was only a matter of time before even those 'baggers woke up and smelled the turdblossoms all 'round them.
Which explains why Rove and Cheney's email blasts to their "followers" to show up for a protest recently were completely fruitless. They (Rove, Cheney, et al) are the astroturfers, the fakes and phonies, while people like Silence, although terribly misguided, are sincere in their protestations.
I think Silence has identified what will become of the REAL 'baggers, they will organize small, sincere gatherings that look more like family reunions than protest rallies, while the astrofturfers struggle to even draw a crowd.
Watch the want ads for "Wanted; Republican looking protesters to swell the ranks of Corporate sponsored Tea Parties, will pay $10/hr and provide bus ride and bag lunch.
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JNagarya
November 22, 2009 9:18 AM in reply to JEP07
The "legitimate" protestors are also political neophytes who expect instant results (based in part on the illusion that they are members of "the" majority), so after the first few protests don't topple the "socialist" regime, they go back to staying home, and sitting on their asses swallowing FOX sewage.
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JEP07
November 21, 2009 10:22 AM
"We understand your outrage and frustration."
Code for "you lazy 'baggers aren't screaming and yelling and treatening loud enough, so we're changing the program.
Biggest lie in their email?
"We do NOT in any way want to take away from a local group's plans with a last minute call to action."
They know the real grassroots 'baggers are getting fed up with those "edicts handed down from on high."
With this organization, there is no one "on high." At least a dozen different heads, some of them totally detached, are all trying to manage the 'baggers from totally different interests.
Sheer chaos. Reminds me of the time I saw someone accidentally drop an open box of ping pong balls in front of a big fan.
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Silence
November 21, 2009 10:36 AM in reply to JEP07
Those who attend the TEA parties come from all walks of life and from all political beliefs. They cannot be "organized" by any one group seeking power.
That's what makes them so unique, so American.
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grenadine
November 21, 2009 10:45 AM in reply to Silence
Right, because grassroots, ground up movements have never happened in other countries.
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JEP07
November 21, 2009 10:52 AM in reply to grenadine
Next time you are at one of your parties, Silence, take an honest look at the ethnic mix.
If you think a 'bagger party "looks" like America, you are both ignorant and arrogant. Or you are living in a fantasy nation.
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Silence
November 21, 2009 11:15 AM in reply to JEP07
Next time you stop by an IRS office, take a look at the ethnic mix of those paying the income taxes.
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JEP07
November 21, 2009 11:22 AM in reply to Silence
bigot
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JEP07
November 21, 2009 11:23 AM in reply to JEP07
Thanks for finally showing your TRUE colors, you should get rid of that red-white-and-blue in your avatar and stick to off-white.
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Silence
November 21, 2009 11:30 AM in reply to JEP07
Facts are facts. They cannot be disputed by name-calling or unsubstantiated accusations.
You asked a question and I answered it. Visit the IRS website and look it up yourself.
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JEP07
November 21, 2009 11:44 AM in reply to Silence
Too late to put your toothpaste back in your tube, you cracked like Humpty Dumpty.
And like Humpty Dumpty, you can't be put back together again like it was before you typed those pernicious words, unless you can get Josh to go back and erase the stupid statement you just made about who pays taxes.
Which I doubt he is willing to do. And while we are here, I would like to detract this statement I made in an earlier comment.
"Silence, I think you are a true patriot, and I respect your sincerity."
After that remark about who pays taxes, you don't seem patriotic at all, you just sound like a racist fascist.
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Silence
November 21, 2009 1:29 PM in reply to JEP07
Still haven't checked, huh?
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CVille Dem
November 21, 2009 4:22 PM in reply to Silence
Is your point that only white people pay taxes? And you say you can find that out at the IRS web site? Fascinating!
Do they have it all divided up by colors? I never noticed that.
If you want to see yourself as a victim, at least get your oppressors right -- the "have mores" who have all the tax dodges; who buy up and combine companies so they can fire half the work force, and eventually all of it as they take it overseas.
Why do they want to kill health care? When people see what it is like to know that they have health care, they can go from a job they don't like to a new one; start their own small business, and most of all -- sleep at night, knowing they won't go broke if their family is sick. So what is the reason they want to kill it? Because Democrats are giving it to the country, and they know they're on the wrong side of the fight.
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SleepinJeezus
November 21, 2009 4:42 PM in reply to Silence
Indeed, Silence, your response about taxpayers being white is just about all we need to know about your perspective on governance. Hide behind your flag and your eagle, bigot. Patriotism is indeed the last refuge of scoundrels, and you stand as proof of that. You otherwise have nothing more to offer here.
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Silence
November 22, 2009 7:59 AM in reply to SleepinJeezus
Did I say they were white? No. Your racism is showing.
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JEP07
November 24, 2009 2:00 PM in reply to Silence
Toothpaste won't go back in the tube, no matter how hard you try.
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fkaZk0sm0
November 22, 2009 12:57 AM in reply to Silence
wow.
and to think i was almost to the point of no longer being sufficiently amused by your inch-deep sloganeering that i nearly quit reading this thread.
glad i was able to see that white pointy hood you've been trying to hide behind your frantic waving of the stars and stripes.
you are a disgusting ignorant bigot. and now that you have left no doubt as to that fact, 'bigot' is the only response you should expect from anyone here.
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Silence
November 22, 2009 9:24 AM in reply to fkaZk0sm0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkUJEDYBnBQ
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JEP07
November 21, 2009 11:16 AM in reply to JEP07
"Fantasy Nation"
like fantasy football, it is a derivative of the real one.
I think I just coined a phrase that defines the delusions of so many of these sore losers. The America they want back never really existed in the first place, except in their fantasies.
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Silence
November 21, 2009 11:24 AM in reply to JEP07
No statistical reply? Just insults?
I'm not surprised. Facts and numbers seem to allude those on the left.
Hey, have you folks managed to locate the lost stimulus money yet?
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JEP07
November 21, 2009 11:49 AM in reply to Silence
Yes. It went into the same black hole as the billions of missing loot in Iraq. Did you protest THAT?
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JNagarya
November 21, 2009 5:21 PM in reply to Silence
I'm not surprised. Facts and numbers seem to allude those on the left.
_____
If not for you, we wouldn't have any "facts and numbers" to allude to, let alone work with.
Wait a minute . . .
to which "facts and numbers" do you only "allude"? Do they elude you?
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Signalman
November 21, 2009 7:00 PM in reply to Silence
"No statistical reply? Just insults?"
Why should someone give your unsupported racist claim the courtesy of a substantive statistical reply?
Your proof-by-assertion bullspit is as worthwhile as your racist post.
Shove off. Don't you have a Bund meeting to go to?
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de TOQUEville
November 21, 2009 10:54 AM
In case any of you folks haven't seen this yet, take a look at the teabaggers explaining their grievances in their own words:
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7487
Classic.
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pirate jenny
November 21, 2009 12:15 PM in reply to de TOQUEville
omg! thanks for posting that!
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Virginia
November 21, 2009 11:28 AM
Americans are enslaved to a cruel health insurance system that keeps millions chained to jobs they hate. They can't leave their jobs if n anyone in their family have any kind of pre-existing condition. They can't take the risk to take a sabbatical, start their own business, work freelance, try to make it as an artist, writer, or musician.
Europeans can do all these things because they know that their health needs will be covered. Europeans are MORE free than we are, not less.
In England, national health is there for everyone. If you are well-off, you can buy supplmental coverage and use private clinics and hospitals.
Are England, France, the Netherlands, Germany, Canada all unfree countries? Of course not - they are freer than the United States because people have more options of how to live their lives. That's what freedom means. And they love their systems and wouldn't dream of trading them for ours. Even conservatives like Thatcher Cameron Sarkozy and Merkel woudn't dream of running against universal health care.
That's because, like Social Security, it's a GOOD thing that people like and want. American conservatives seem determined to ensure that Americans remain miserable.
I've been hearing from conservatives for 50 years that Europe is on the verge of collapse becuase of its social welfare systems. Funny how those darn Europeans seem to keep sailing right along, now leading the recovery and with a currency that leaves ours in the dust.
The reason the Right hates Europe is very simply because these countries provide living proof that that the right is dead wrong.
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JEP07
November 21, 2009 11:36 AM in reply to Virginia
Virginia, if you don't make a TPM blog ut of this, I will.
Par Excellent!
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Silence
November 21, 2009 11:42 AM in reply to Virginia
I have been treated by the national health care system of England. Thank God it was only for something very minor.
No, thank you. Ever since that experience, I carry AMEX travel coverage with an evacuation benefit.
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JEP07
November 21, 2009 11:52 AM in reply to Silence
"with an evacuation benefit."
You really could use some softener.
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SleepinJeezus
November 21, 2009 11:53 AM in reply to Silence
And isn't that EXACTLY the point, Silence?
You can afford to purchase a supplemental plan that provides you with services over and above the basic health care service that England offers to everyone. Meanwhile, there exists a program that provides universal health care FOR EVERYONE that ensures England spends less than we do for its health care system, which provides far better outcomes across the entire spectrum of its citizenry (and even foreigners who gain a free ride).
You make the case for universal health care coverage very well. Thank you very much!
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Silence
November 21, 2009 1:40 PM in reply to SleepinJeezus
I seek no free ride. This concept may be difficult for you to comprehend, but there are people who take great pride in caring for themselves. The people of the England do not owe me free health care. I attempted to pay for their services. My payment was refused.
It was not only unfair to the citizens of that country, but it was degrading to me.
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SleepinJeezus
November 21, 2009 1:50 PM in reply to Silence
And you miss the point entirely.
There is no one who will prevent you from paying for your own health care, over and above the level of care provided to us all under a universal health care plan.
It is you who finds the level of care provided by the English system to be less than satisfactory. Yet, I am certain that the millions of Americans who are presently not covered at all would find the English plan to be a great improvement. Not only that, but the record for outcomes of the English plan versus the American experience shows that the English plan works quite well. THAT is the issue, and you have supported the quest for universal coverage very effectively in your comments.
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seashell
November 21, 2009 2:21 PM in reply to Silence
Silence - Have you ever studied the Heritage Foundation's Index of Economic Freedom World Rankings?
I just wondered because a conservative organization found that while the USA had a 2009 score of 80.7, the 'socialist' countries of Denmark, Switzerland and the UK rated 79.6, 79.4 and 79.0, respectively.
Interesting, yes?
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Lord Rasputin
November 21, 2009 12:33 PM in reply to Silence
Why do I have a hard time believing anything you're saying? You sound like you're just making up counters to the standard liberal talking points. I don't believe you have employees, I don't believe you've been to the National Health. I don't even think you got off your butt and attended a Tea Party.
You've also obviously never read the history books you exhort others to read. You have a fundamental lack of knowledge of the causes of the Second World War. Which books, pray tell, did you read?
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mjshep
November 21, 2009 1:10 PM in reply to Lord Rasputin
Hey, that's not fair. It's like asking Sarah Palin what newspapers she reads.
All of them, of course.
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jcricket
November 21, 2009 1:37 PM in reply to Lord Rasputin
I'm with you on this, LR. My guess is that Silence is a poseur. I am an accountant with many years of experience working with business owners and their finances. What Silence has written all through this thread demonstrates a fundamental lack of critical thinking. No one without this ability can operate a business with 92 employees. I call bullsh*t.
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Silence
November 21, 2009 2:20 PM in reply to jcricket
Ah, yes. The bean counter who views everything through the scope of P&L statement and balance sheet. Yet, he knows nothing of how these number first came to be.
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jcricket
November 21, 2009 3:27 PM in reply to Silence
That statement alone proves that you are not the business owner that you claim to be. Accountants, other than tax accountants, have a very in depth knowledge of the operations that generate the revenues, as well as how to structure the operational cash flow (i.e. everything money related on an ongoing basis).
If you, Silence, really had business ownership experience, you would know that. It is likely that if you are employed, the highest role you could be filling is either a supervisor in a 92 employee company, or an entry level manager. Certainly not anyone in a policy decision role.
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Silence
November 21, 2009 4:37 PM in reply to jcricket
Nice flight.
I started my business with 5K, and grew it to 22M in 13 years.
Tell me, oh great accountant, how is this possible?
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CVille Dem
November 21, 2009 6:29 PM in reply to Silence
It is possible only in your dreams, grasshopper - er preying mantis.
Interesting that you had to board your "flight at 2:22 pm, but posted this barely 2 hours later. You have a lot of time to kill for a big executive. I don't know who you think you're kidding, but it isn't the TPM regulars!
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JEP07
November 21, 2009 10:13 PM in reply to CVille Dem
snagged a troll...
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Bwakfat
November 21, 2009 10:25 PM in reply to JEP07
Trolls aren't that stoopid.
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Silence
November 21, 2009 10:24 PM in reply to CVille Dem
Don't fly much, do you?
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Bwakfat
November 21, 2009 11:31 PM in reply to Silence
Apparently, you don't.
The world is changing, and white ain't the dominant color. Welcome to the 21st century, luddite.
=D
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Silence
November 22, 2009 8:42 AM in reply to CVille Dem
The next time you buy a computer, a cell phone, a solar panel, a golf ball, think of me.
Thank-you. Come again.
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CVille Dem
November 22, 2009 9:44 AM in reply to Silence
No, I'll think of you the next time I see TRUCK NUTZ!
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Bwakfat
November 22, 2009 10:11 AM in reply to Silence
Funny how they have those very same things in countries with UHC, ain't it?
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mjshep
November 21, 2009 1:18 PM in reply to Silence
And I have been treated by the very socialized medical system in Sweden, some years ago. It was for something that could have been serious, but thankfully was so well taken care of that it caused no lasting problems.
The experience was wonderful, the care first rate and the cost about $20. My doctor was both well trained and a lovely person who looked upon his profession as a way to help people, not to get rich. In fact we still exchange holiday greetings.
Gud Jul!
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Silence
November 21, 2009 2:22 PM
Time to board my flight. Have a nice weekend.
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neesy08
November 21, 2009 2:57 PM
"Despite what their constituents want, Congress appears to be doing what they want rather than representing us."
I think this quote demonstrates how out of step the teabaggers are. landieu and lincoln, after being bribed, ARE voting the way their constituients want them to. the teabaggers/birthers are in the minority on this.
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calbearinillinois
November 21, 2009 3:41 PM
The night Obama was elected, I was in St. Charles, Missouri at a gathering of campaign volunteers (no, we didn't win our local district, but it was a lot closer than anyone expected). We were young and old(an organizer who was still in high school through folks in their 70s), black, white, yellow, brown, men and women. Folks who had put their lives on hold to work for this moment (including missing anniversaries, putting off weddings, and spending months away from newborn babies) and folks like me who had been down about politics but re-energized by this campaign. The feeling that we had been part of something bigger than ourselves in a positive way, that we had finally claimed some small part of the American ideal of a more perfect union, was palpable. I all but floated from the building.
What makes the TPP folks so disheartening to me is that they just can't see that. Obama's campaign was the antithesis of the bogeyman they've conjured for themselves. As hardcore left wingers keep saying, his whole posture of inclusiveness and openness is at odds with fulfilling an idealogically pure agenda. These angry white people (and 99% of them seem to be caucasions) just assume no one else has value, even when their views are demonstrably out of step with the rest of an evolving, pluralistic America.
I can't expect these people to see reason any time soon, if ever. However, I do think that in the long term the present Administration will be known for restoring the faith of the vast majority of Americans that government can be responsive to the will of the people as a whole, not just the entrenched powers or the monied interests.
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AnswerFrog
November 21, 2009 8:01 PM in reply to calbearinillinois
"These angry white people (and 99% of them seem to be caucasions) just assume no one else has value, even when their views are demonstrably out of step with the rest of an evolving, pluralistic America."
That's the larger historical context. America is changing. Some people resent that. I say, too bad.
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AnswerFrog
November 21, 2009 8:16 PM in reply to AnswerFrog
One final note, the worst part of these anachronistic resenters of contemporary America is that their political program FAILED utterly. It's ridiculous that anyone should have to listen to these vandals and nihilists after what THEY did to America.
Low taxes, militarism abroad, torture, deregulation --- brought the country to its knees under Bush (economically, politically, militarily...). A collapse from which America might never regain its previous stature and power.
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JNagarya
November 22, 2009 8:42 AM in reply to AnswerFrog
Again: Bushit "only" presided over the seeds planted by Reagan. The "supply-side trickle-down" lie.
Of which ideological junk Will Rogers said something along the lines of:
"If you put gold on top of a hill, it won't roll down to the bottom of the hill."
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Silence
November 22, 2009 10:47 AM
I don't want your da*** entitlements and I don't want your constant meddling. Why is this so difficult to understand?
In fact, return my SS and medicare payments now, with interest, an we'll all go our separate ways.
You do have the money don't you?
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CVille Dem
November 22, 2009 4:41 PM in reply to Silence
Who are you talking to? Are you hearing voices again?
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