
The Republicans are planning to fight furiously to try and recapture control of the House of Representatives in 2010, and former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, who helped orchestrate the Republican revolution 15 years ago, thinks it's possible for a repeat.
"I think you could easily have a bigger backlash in 2010 than we had in 1994," Gingrich (R-GA) told Newsmax TV recently.
Looking at generic polls of party preference, Republicans like what they see, and most Democrats acknowledge they will lose seats next fall.
But a Republican House takeover? Pretty unlikely it seems, as TPMDC explored the question by talking to political consultants and campaign hands to see what conditions existed in 1994 and whether they exist now.
Timing is everything
Here's where it's similar - you have a Democratic president who will be completing his second year in office when voters head to the ballot box next November to choose all 435 members of Congress.
President Clinton was a major factor in the Republicans' 1994 victory, when the party won 54 seats and kept control for more than a decade. President Obama's approval ratings have dropped significantly, but he won a higher percentage of the popular vote than Clinton.
The base!
But - Obama's supporters on the left have grown frustrated with him as he's taken the center approach on military issues and domestic priorities. As we've seen in some recent elections, the base, already worn out from a long 2008 political season, stayed home. That is the biggest thing Democrats have to worry about next year.
Safe seats
The Democrats have a 258-177 advantage in the House now, having won the chamber back in 2006 with a 30-seat victory and gaining more seats last year.
The 1994 revolution came about in part because there were so many Democrats retiring in districts that had become redder and redder over the years.
Redistricting also made Republican districts more so, and carved out Democratic voters for the Democratic districts. So the number of swing districts has shrunk considerably over the years.
Primed
The GOP is excited, and feel they have a movement bolstering their charge against Obama and Congressional leadership as big government big spenders.
But key Democrats believe their members will not be caught flat-footed. Everyone is worried about losing seats, so they will fight harder. Democrats who were shocked by losing power in 1994 won't make the same mistake this time around by being unprepared.
The DCCC has been preparing since January for the tough next cycle.
For that reason, Democrats believe their candidates are top-tier this time around. They also are aggressively going after GOP seats, which they didn't do in 1994, and because of gains in recent years aren't dependent on one region as they once were.
Ideas
Central to the Republican win in 1994 was the Contract with America, a simple list of 10 bills they were partially able to implement after taking over. Democrats tried their own plan called Six for 06, some which also went into effect the year they took control.
But the Republicans so far haven't presented big new ideas, and some of their plans have been debunked or mocked for lack of specificity. The Democrats are starting to get traction with the "party of no" accusations.
Economy
The biggest thing that Democrats have to worry about is the economy and unemployment. If things don't improve by next summer, they will lose a lot more seats than it stands today.
NRCC spokesman Paul Lindsay tells TPMDC they are aiming to put as many seats in play as possible:
"The year we've always been focused on is 2010, and we took many steps this year recruit strong candidates and put as many seats in play as possible for next year's election. Democrats, meanwhile, seem willing to lose seats in order to pass their reckless agenda. The only question is how many of their Members are going to walk the plank or choose to retire with their heads held high."
Finally, Senate Democrats actually stand a chance of gaining seats as a handful of Republican retirements give them new pickup opportunities.
Though they have their own internal struggles, Democrats also see a silver lining in the conservative tea party war within the Republican party. Sen. Jim DeMint's group is picking out candidates that pass his test while Erick Erickson says conservatives should weed out the "establishment" Republicans.
The Democrats see what happened in New York's 23rd Congressional district last month as a potential way they can exploit Republican divisions - national Republicans backed the tea party candidate and the party nominee dropped out, allowing a Democrat to win the seat for the first time since the civil war.
Former George W. Bush adviser Karl Rove talked a bit about 2010 as it relates to the 2012 candidates on Fox earlier today, and had a telling nugget about the direction of the party going forward.
"The tea party movement is important less because of its involvement in political campaigns and more about what it doing to shape people's attitudes about where our country is growing and let the political fallout occur as a natural result of that," he said.
Late Update:
Ryan Rudominer of the DCCC said anyone who thinks Republicans can win control is in "la-la land."
He added:
"Though we face an historic headwind, as the special election in NY-23 made clear, the DCCC knows how to win tough elections and is staying on offense this cycle putting 20 Republicans seats in play and ensuring our members and candidates have the resources to get their message out. In stark contrast, the NRCC lost a special election last month, a seat that had been Republican since the 1800s, spent nearly a million dollars on a candidate who dropped out and fueled a Republican Civil War sweeping the country in the process."
Ed. note: This post has been updated to correct an error.
AnswerFrog
December 11, 2009 4:42 PM
The GOP is always mired in the past, and every new situation is hammered into the frames that worked before. Thus, Reagan's policies are held up as some sort of permanent gospel, despite having little to do with today's economy or geopolitical environment (nothing left to deregulate, taxes low, no more communism). Every adversary is either the Soviet Union or Hitler. And for the next 50 years, every minor blip that favors them -- like the usual one that comes in midterms for the losing party -- will be "1994 all over again".
The GOP reminds me of that middle-aged guy with long hair still driving the camaro and listening to classic rock who thinks he's still in high school.
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Powkat
December 11, 2009 5:37 PM in reply to AnswerFrog
Just look at the photos - 16 years later and it's still four old white guys from the South and the Bible Belt.
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monel9959
December 11, 2009 6:23 PM in reply to AnswerFrog
More like the guy with a mullet and a pick-up truck with a bed full of empty beer cans.
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NobleCommentDecider
December 12, 2009 11:20 AM in reply to monel9959
...and the heavily soiled mud flaps with the chrome babes, the just legible 'protected by Smith and Wesson' and 'Bush/Cheney 04' stickers, and the gun rack in the rear window.
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margoharris
December 12, 2009 2:42 PM in reply to NobleCommentDecider
Don't forget the confederate flag!
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Signalman
December 12, 2009 3:35 PM in reply to margoharris
And the dinged-up front plate with the cartoon of a Confederate officer and the slogan "Fergit, Hell!"
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markg8
December 12, 2009 12:15 PM in reply to AnswerFrog
Reagan's policies are held up as some sort of permanent gospel, despite having little to do with today's economy...
Sorry but that's just plan wrong. Reagan's policies have everything to do with today's economy. We had a $990 billion dollar nat'l debt in 1981 when he came into office. It's now $12 trillion and rising. His trickle down supply side economics never payed for themselves as promised. Republicans have pretended for decades we could have our tax cuts cake and eat it too. Now we have adults in charge again who are trying to resurrect the economy after the GOP almost deregulated us all into the poor house and suddenly the wingnuts are deficit hawks again.
Bush and Cheney may have put the whole effort on steroids by auctioning off chunks of the government to his carpetbagger cronies but Reagan is the one who put us on that path.
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Michael A
December 12, 2009 12:34 PM in reply to markg8
Co-sign.
When will people wake up? The b-movie actor's presidency was a distaster of epic proportions. The spin and myth has overtaken any semblance of reality.
Incidentally, last time I checked we were in the poor house, except for the top 1%, the repuke base. How do they have any political power at all?
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brewmn61
December 12, 2009 3:14 PM in reply to markg8
"the GOP almost deregulated us all into the poor house"
Um, Carter started the deregulation of the economy, and Clinton singed bills exempting derivative products from regulation and repealing Glass-Steagal. Reagan's legacy is a horribly destructive one, but the current economic crisis has bipartisan parentage.
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Jackster
December 12, 2009 6:23 PM in reply to markg8
Government isn't the answer to the problems, it is the problem. Especially when we deregulate corporations and financial institutions against America's best interests. Such as removing protections for the American economy in favor of vulgar WS greed. Reagan's "vision" is what got us HERE. Because of the W cronies trying to create their own Reaganesque vision of themselves, They failed miserably and we're all paying the price.
So I know... let's go back and see how much the swing voter has forgotten or just plain ignored.
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Matt Jones
December 11, 2009 4:50 PM
Let's run down the principles of '94s Contract On America:
- Fiscal Responsibility Amendment: didn't pass. Would have made every Shrub budget illegal, barring massive domestic cuts to pay for foreign adventuring.
- "Taking Back Our Streets": well, we certainly succeeded in becoming the country with the largest prison population per capita anywhere. Unfortunately, being "tough on crime" is now bankrupting our states and cities. Good job.
- "Personal Responsibility Act": AKA "We Hate Poor People Act". Passed, and the growing rate of food insecurity and homelessness we now see can be traced to it. Heckova job, Newt! (more info at this site)
- Family Reinforcement Act: never passed by anybody.
- "American Dream Restoration Act": died in the Senate.
- National Security Restoration Act: AKA "Fuck the UN". Died in the Senate.
- Senior Citizens Fairness Act: never passed by anybody.
- Job Creation and Wage Enhancement Act: the only part of this that ever got anywhere was regulation on unfunded mandates; the rest was a thinly veiled attack on the EPA that died in committee.
- "Common Sense" Legal Reform Act: AKA "Reduce the threat of litigation for big corps". Vetoed.
- Citizen Legislature Act: term limit amendment. Couldn't even muster enough votes to get out of the House. Note that a sizable fraction of the sitting Republican senators and representatives would have been forced out by this (by now), including anybody elected during the '94 "revolution".
----
So in short, the "Contract" turned out to be mostly sound and fury signifying nothing. Apart from putting some regulation on unfunded mandates (which Bush's NCLB somehow worked around) the net effect was to ensure that more low-income people were hungry, homeless and/or in jail.
In other words, a stunning victory for the essential Republican principle of "I've got mine".
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mistergarth
December 11, 2009 4:56 PM
"...voters head to the ballot box next November to choose all 435 members of Congress."
Ouch. Welcome to eighth grade civics. Yes, all 435 members of the House will be chosen in 2010, but the term "Congress" includes the Senate, and only one third of those seats will be chosen then.
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Silence
December 11, 2009 4:58 PM
Does it matter? One employs an elephant and the other a jackass to symbolize a particular brand of crookedness.
All are cut from the same cloth.
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tonigo
December 12, 2009 10:34 AM in reply to Silence
And so it begins..."There's no difference between Obama and [insert 2012 Republican presidential candidate here]. I'm not voting/voting for Nader/Paul/[insert fashionable alternative cold-day-in-hell candidate here]."
Where have I heard this before? Oh yes, back in 2000 when there was no difference between George W. Bush and Al Gore. I'm sure if Gore won, the events of 2001-2008 would have unfolded exactly the same way.
Don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good.
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Barry Champlain
December 12, 2009 1:43 PM in reply to tonigo
Please do not use that stupid-ass expression. Ever again.
That's how we got a health bill (yet to pass, even), which despite all the sturm und drang, turns out to be a giant blowjob to the insurance companies (whose opponents have basically been saying, "Please don't throw me into the briar patch!").
You see... "the good"... is usually never as "good" as advertised. That's why, if Obama had shot originally for "the perfect"; namely, single-payer health care, we wouldn't be facing millions of uninsured, continually soaring rates, and an all but certain loss of the White House in 2012.
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dnegri
December 12, 2009 4:06 PM in reply to Barry Champlain
We don't need to recycle old cliches, we just need to repeat: "Speaker John Boehner".
If that doesn't get us out of our funk and off our butts, nothing will.
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ericf
December 11, 2009 4:59 PM
The current circumstances are very different from a year ago, and we don't know what will change a year from now. The Republicans seem awfully cocky. If they lose seats in 2010, it will be fun to replay their predictions. If the Democrats can figure out early that corruption hurt them badly in 1994 like it did the Republicans in 2006 and keep their noses clean, and figure out that the base is disgruntled and needs gruntling, they may be all right.
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Scott in PacNW
December 11, 2009 5:01 PM
They only have two ways to win: Economy and narrative.
The economy is (mostly) the GOP's fault, but they've been trying to pin it on Dems and ACORN for awhile.
Therefore, the narrative is the bigger factor. It's played out in the media, which tilts toward right-wing memes.
So, IMO, if the Dems keep strong and clear messaging, it will go a long way toward defeating anything the wingnuts and teabaggers cannibalizing the GOP can muster.
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Richardxx
December 11, 2009 11:54 PM in reply to Scott in PacNW
According to the news I saw somewhere today, the White House intends to pass the HCR and then shift to deficit reduction and employment next year. That should take care of the most urgent currently foreseeable specifics, but what about the narrative?
I still think the Democratic effort to deal with the narrative has been swamped by the fight over health care since August. The political advertising spending in the last six months has been more than during most political election years, and most of it aimed at the Democrats. Every enemy of HCR has panicked and crawled out of the woodwork to try to protect their profits and executive salaries. The end of the HCR battle is going to result in some shifts there, probably pretty sizable shifts. It's possible that a lot of funds that would have gone to Republicans during the 2010 election year have been spent this year already. What's their draw next year for funds?
Then there is the ground game. That goes under the media radar. All I see discussed here is the media game, but it was my impression that Obama won the Presidency in spite of the media, not with it. A good deal of the MSM antipathy towards Obama is that they feel he has not given them the priority they think they deserve, and they are out to punish him like they did Al
Gore in 2000. But they aren't the political story they were before 2000 and they are becoming less and less relevant.
I'm waiting to see what the Democratic ground game and organization does this time around. Back to the premise of the this story, the Democratic ground game that is currently growing did not exist in 1994. I expect it to play a role in the 2010 election that is analogous to the English longbow at Agincourt.
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CT Voter
December 12, 2009 12:21 PM in reply to Richardxx
All I see discussed here is the media game, but it was my impression that Obama won the Presidency in spite of the media, not with it
Interesting take. Given how any event was typically described as being a problem for Obama, I think I agree with you. And this trend continues unabated, today. If anything, it's more pronounced. The default position for the media continues to be that anything the Republicans say or do should be reported on with respect, but anything related to Democrats is suspect.
It gets numbing.
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Barry Champlain
December 12, 2009 2:01 PM in reply to CT Voter
Yeah, but there's a catch. The Obama Administration may want to declare victory, dance in the end zone, and then move on to another "victory", resulting in votes of confidence in 2010 and 2012... but in fact, that isn't the way it's going down.
You see, the millions who materialized out of the vapor, to vote for an Actual Black Guy who was going to end the war in Iraq, guarantee universal health care and ensure human rights domestically... they may not have been your typical "voter", but their very existence was always denied by the conventionally wise. Only the easily marketed-to were ever expected to go to the polls and cast their "center-right" votes. But in November 2008, by God, there they were.
And they are not stupid.
Once they learned that it was all just marketing again, and the permanent power structure was still firmly in charge, as ever, just without the in-your-face Cheney snarl... they went back home and they're probably not coming back. Don't believe me?
I give you... November 2009.
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cube3u
December 12, 2009 3:52 PM in reply to Barry Champlain
What election are you talking about?
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cube3u
December 12, 2009 3:44 PM in reply to Richardxx
Agree completely.
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threegoal
December 11, 2009 5:04 PM
A also recall there was a thing called the House Banking scandal that contributed to the "throw the bums out" mantra. Nothing like that in 2010. Note: "Contract with America" given its term limits was more popular due to popular disgust with incumbents, so I recall that is juxtaposed well with the House Banking scandal. What I don't recall is if there was any Democratic effort to attack the GOP Congress people in a coordinated way in 1994, and I see that in play in 2010 (Party of "No", etc.)
For another thing, the Senate flipped in '94. One thing you do wrt the Senate is look back at who did best 6 years back in order to see who has the most to lose. That points to 2004, where the GOP gained some seats.
Only thing slightly pointing the other way is the Democratic seats either open or defended by appointees due to Senators who joined the Obama Administration.
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The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve
December 11, 2009 8:15 PM in reply to threegoal
THANK YOU! It's like the fact that the Democrats had lost two speakers in a row to real or faked scandals and were generally viewed as being unusually corrupt and venal--even by people's usually low standards for Congress--went down the memory hole because it doesn't fit anyone's narrative.
And the Contract on America? Pfft. The idea that it had a goddamn thing to do with the sweep is after-the fact narrative making by our lazy, stupid MSM. No one knew wat was in it. No one cared what was in it. No one voted for them because of anything that was in it. They got no measurable bump from the polls from it.
It was just a last minute P.R. stunt they cooked up AT THE LAST MINUTE in order to give the MSM more reasons to do stories about them to contrast with their "Oh those silly, squabbling, ineffectual Democrats" stories.
And, truth to tell, the Dems were all of those in that Congress. It's like they got back into power and were too busy gleefully redistributing the spoils to pay a goddamn bit of attention to the fact that they won becuase the country was in a recession, albeit one that was a piddling little dip compared to this one.
But Contract with America was important? Bull.
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Richardxx
December 12, 2009 12:14 AM in reply to The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve
You remind us of a lot of stuff that is important. Newt has always been a propagandist, and the contract on America was his masterpiece, but it really did little except provide a focus for media stories and a basis for getting Newt elected speaker after the Republicans won the House.
As for winning the House, the Republicans had previously last lost control of it in 1954 because they had been so corrupt and had done such a rotten job in the two years they held control after 1952. As a result, the Democrats felt that after 40 years of control of the House they had a lock on it, so why change anything? That sense that the House belonged to the Democrats and that nothing special needed to be done to keep it that way that existed in 1994 is long gone now, along with most of the Democratic Congressmen who had held it. That's an intangible factor, but I think it is going to be an important one.
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Big River Bandido
December 12, 2009 1:42 AM in reply to threegoal
The so-called "House banking scandal" was anything but. That was a "scandal" as defined by a corporate media that needed a narrative to boost ratings. Rest assured, if they find anything this time, we'll hear about it...if they ever stop talking about Sarah Palin and Tiger Woods.
The benefits that were provided by the House "bank" in 1993 pale in comparison to what members of Congress continue to give themselves as part of their health insurance. Funny, we don't hear much about that on the news.
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lousgirl84
December 11, 2009 5:05 PM
I can't imagine anyone in their right mind, voting for the thugs after their behavior over just the past year alone, setting aside the past 9 years. Other than the 27-28% crazies, I can't imagine
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Silence
December 11, 2009 5:25 PM in reply to lousgirl84
Imagine it. The TEA party is installing new people on the Repub ticket as we speak. Do you know who these candidates represent? Small business. Small business may not have the big bank accounts of the big corps and Obama's DC lobbyist, but piss these folks off and things get done.
These are the jacks of all trades.....the American underdogs.
I was once asked how small business can possibly compete against the Goliaths of industry. The answer is simple. The small business doesn't know it can't be done, so it just goes ahead and does it. Type "A" personalities. The most dangerous personalities in the world.
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Shrubbit
December 11, 2009 5:36 PM in reply to Silence
"Small business" = Club for Growth = Multinational corporations
Tea Party = Fraud
But you're a patriot. I can tell by your avatar. I have a mesh trucker hat with the same logo. LOVE IT!
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Dave Adams
December 11, 2009 5:48 PM in reply to Silence
If the Tea party movement were to kick the multinational-Lobbyist-loving-Wall-Street-serving Republican to the curb in 2010 it would be a good thing for the country. So on that note, GO TEABAGGERS.
However, given that the entire Teabagger movement was underwritten by the same billionaire club that finances the Republicans, I don't see this as very likely.
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dtOZONE
December 11, 2009 6:11 PM in reply to Silence
The tea parties are as representative of small business interests as the Koran is of Shintoism.
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jeffgee
December 11, 2009 6:46 PM in reply to Silence
Yeah. David Koch, Dick Armey and FreedomWork represent small business. Dick Armey cares about the powerless.
Dream on, Silence. You're being used.
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Silence
December 11, 2009 7:37 PM in reply to jeffgee
Have you ever considered that small business could be using big business as it's useful idiot? It happens everyday.
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Signalman
December 12, 2009 2:19 PM in reply to Silence
You'd need to detail this scenario before I'd give it the least bit of credence. It's kind of like saying that Abu Ghraib was Lynndie England's fault, not the fault of the officers and NCOs who were actually running the place.
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The Emperor
December 11, 2009 8:08 PM in reply to Silence
Please detail the particular small business you own and operate for us. I think you're blowing smoke out a particular orifice.
My father has owned and operated a small computer networking and database development business his entire life. He also has a "pre-existing condition" in the form of kidney disease. It nearly killed him, and, since he was self-employed, he was unable to find any private health insurance that would have him. Please tell me how the Tea Party would propose solving that situation.
You want to know what saved his life in the end? (hint: it was a "Big Government" program)
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Silence
December 11, 2009 9:03 PM in reply to The Emperor
I own a small mfg company. Once upon a time, I too was a one man shop. I know the drill. My health insurance was obtained by joining a professional engineering society that negotiated a group rate for it's members. As the business grew and staff was hired, we became our own group and negotiated a contract.
Although several employees have suffered major illnesses, they received needed care. Our broker + insurance company were both very helpful through the process.
Costs are rising and some reform is needed. However, I do not believe a govt takeover of health care is warranted. I prefer a step by step approach to solving problems. This method is less prone to unforeseen disastrous effects.
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benintn
December 12, 2009 9:23 AM in reply to Silence
Bro, you need to stop drinking the KoolAid. A "government takeover" of healthcare? What planet are you on?
The truth is that the current system in unsustainable. The truth is that the government has lower overhead and operating expenses than private insurance companies - they run healthcare more efficiently. The truth is that if you want to keep your insurance, you can. The truth is that the public option is an option, not a takeover.
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Silence
December 12, 2009 10:56 AM in reply to benintn
The gov't operates more efficiently than the private sector?
Thanks for my laugh of the day.
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Signalman
December 12, 2009 2:24 PM in reply to Silence
The government-run military has been doing a much better job than the privately-run military in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Consider yourself refuted.
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Signalman
December 12, 2009 2:22 PM in reply to Silence
A "government takeover" of healthcare is exactly what small business (and big business) needs. The minute the megacorps figure out how much money they're going to save in employee benefits costs, they're going to fall all over themselves to get behind the program.
Besides, Hawaii has mandated that *all* employers provide their employees with health care coverage for at least the last 25 years, and their economy hasn't gone bust as a result. Educate yourself and look it up, cowboy.
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The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve
December 11, 2009 8:20 PM in reply to Silence
Thus does the Party of Magical Thinking prepare to saddle up the flying pigs and sweep to a crushing victory over the socialist Democrat party on a tide of vague, yet exciting-sounding, verbs and incomplete syllogisms. Yay!
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cube3u
December 12, 2009 3:51 PM in reply to lousgirl84
First they have to actually GO to a voting booth. That's the issue with midterms--and it's the reason 27% of the population can control the midterms. The GOP attempts to depress Democratic and independent turnout so their 27% of the population who are wild-eyed radical teabaggers can control the election results. How to keep folks away? Your vote doesn't matter; the parties are exactly alike; Palin is who everyone respects and other misinformation or just confushing information that makes some folks throw up their hands in despair. You can also put "issues" on the ballot that will turn out all of the 27%--things like anti-gay marriage; opt out on healthcare; abortion; etc.
The fight is simply not over.
The Democrats have long depended on reliable union members to turn out the votes. That's still very important, but we have had dramatic declines in the numbers of folks in unions over the past decades. So we have to work outside of the unions to turn folks out to the polls.
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brewmn61
December 11, 2009 5:42 PM
"Imagine it. The TEA party is installing new people on the Repub ticket as we speak. Do you know who these candidates represent? Small business."
Yet strangely, they support exactly the same policies as big business.
Of course, I wouldn't expect logical coherence logical rigor from someone who sounds like Stephen Colbert at this most ironic. I mean seriously:
"I was once asked how small business can possibly compete against the Goliaths of industry. The answer is simple. The small business doesn't know it can't be done, so it just goes ahead and does it. Type "A" personalities. The most dangerous personalities in the world."
Comedy gold.
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Silence
December 11, 2009 5:47 PM in reply to brewmn61
Laugh as you will. As you lay in your bed tonight, in the dark, you'll think about what I said.
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hoppycalif2
December 11, 2009 8:43 PM in reply to Silence
Sorry, what did you say again? I noticed a hot breeze a moment ago, was that it?
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Richardxx
December 12, 2009 12:28 AM in reply to Silence
Previously NCSteve got it right. Magical thinking.
My copy of "Authoritarianism & Polarization in American Politics" (discussed at TPM Cafe last weekend) has arrived and Hetherington and Weiler are on to something. It's a lack of cognitive complexity that drives black & white thinking and a demand for unnauanced answers to problems. Magical thinking, in other words.
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mjshep
December 12, 2009 1:54 PM in reply to Silence
Net jei esate Lietuvos, jūs vis dar idiotas.
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G3
December 13, 2009 11:31 AM in reply to mjshep
Taip, Taip.
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Signalman
December 12, 2009 2:27 PM in reply to Silence
And as you lay in *your* bed tonight, a warm puddle will form around you. In time, it will grow cold and become quite uncomfortable. In the morning, your wife/mother/housekeeper/nurse/attendant will say "WTF!"
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Icon
December 11, 2009 6:07 PM
For the GOP to retake control of Congress with public support several things need to happen:
* They need real, logically consistent ideas on ways to reform the government and improve upon its operations
* They need a smart, integrated marketing campaign to sell those ideas
* They need to limit the ability of the Tea Party movement to play spoiler
* They need to accept and embrace moderates among their ranks
* They need the public to believe that they would be better at governing than the Democrats.
None of those things are happening. And given the genuinely uninspired leadership of Steele, Boehner and McConnell, I don't expect any of them to happen this year.
So the only way for the GOP to retake either house is if the Dems are too demotivated to go to the polls.
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cube3u
December 12, 2009 4:00 PM in reply to Icon
That's exactly the issue, I think. Turnout in the midterm elections is notoriously low. Unfortunately, this allows highly motified sections of our population to create a "win" for their candidates. It's the reason such "issues" as gay marriage, abortion, etc. make onto the ballots. It's to drive turnout higher for motivated groups.
The ground game of getting folks to the polls is critical for Democrats in the 2010 midterms. That's what will keep Democrats in Congress, IMHO.
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wbgonne
December 11, 2009 6:22 PM
Things are in flux so predictions are lame, The Republicans are imploding and may lose the Palinites. (By the way, Hillary Clinton created this phenomenon during the primary. McCain tried to run on it (hence Palin) but couldn't pull it off.) But the Democrats are in danger of losing their Progressive Wing. There is a lot of populist anger out there that neither the Democrats nor the Republicans (other than Palin) have been able to tap in to. Who knows how it will go? But the Democrats are surely squandering a golden opportunity and I think it is largely attributable to the tactical decision to have Obama stand down on domestic issues and let Congress run the show. Bad move. Obama was (is) the ace and sometimes you have to play the cards.
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The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve
December 11, 2009 8:22 PM in reply to wbgonne
Pity. I guess he's just not as smart as you are.
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wbgonne
December 12, 2009 7:47 AM in reply to The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve
Smart people make mistakes. (Maybe even you!) The question is whether one learns from those mistakes.
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synchronicity
December 11, 2009 6:48 PM
I'd say one commercial with a variety of statements from Boehner and pointing out that this man could end up speaker of the house... would be enough to make people do what they have to do to prevent it.
talk about a nightmare...
If you think things are bad... well they could be so much worse...
just imagine another seriously stupid member of the GOP, Rep. John Boehner, become Speaker of the House.
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human
December 12, 2009 7:39 PM in reply to synchronicity
I'm sure the Repubs were saying something similar re Pelosi in 2006, except it was the "dirty hippie homo-lover from San Francisco" or some variation on that theme.
I think the comparisons to 1994 are ridiculous, mainly because the GOP is even more stupid and incompetent than they were 15 years ago, but the Dems need more to go on than trying to make them fearful of the alternative. Most folks have no idea who Boehner is, and I doubt that a campaign which highlights that isn't going to be very effective anyway with all the other noise that will flying both ways.
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ilovebacon
December 11, 2009 6:48 PM
All Republicans talk about is the past. McCain and Palin still repeat "Reagan" at every opportunity. And Newt?!?! C'mon. You can't repeat the past. At least we realized that--why we got Obama.
And a second point--the economy IS indeed recovering. Faster than expected.
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Silence
December 11, 2009 7:19 PM in reply to ilovebacon
The unemployed may disagree with you on that one.
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Seraph
December 11, 2009 7:51 PM in reply to Silence
It's not a matter of opinion. The stock markets are up, retail sales are up, the economy is expanding again, and rate of unemployment actually decreased last month. The economy is recovering. Just because that recovery hasn't reached me, personally yet (unless you count more and better temp jobs) doesn't mean it isn't happening.
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Richardxx
December 12, 2009 12:58 AM in reply to Seraph
The stock market and retail sales are up primarily because of all the money the fed is flooding the economy with. The continued low interest rates are fueling home sales, but that's just delaying the drop in value of overvalued real estate. Foreclosures are rising again, and commercial loans are being foreclosed also. Those trends will continue and they are depressing the economy.
Consumption to support a market that would make the current real estate values realistic simply does not exist. Real estate values will continue dropping, but slowly as banks refuse to take reductions in what they are owed because that hurts their bottom line and their capital base.
Employment, however, is still dropping. That drop in employment means that consumption spending based on anything outside government supplied funds does not exist. There is not the slightest hint that the economy is really going to turn around.
As for the stock market, that's a monetary reaction. More money to invest and prices will rise. But again, it's government supplied money. Wait until the government starts reducing the deficit and the fed allows the interest rates to rise. Krugman pointed out recently that Japan has had a struggling market much like ours for the last two decade, and their stock market has also seen some rallies. None stuck, though.
This isn't a cyclical recession will bounce back. This is a recession built on the attempt to run our economy on borrowed money while exporting jobs and making education more expensive for the work force. The real economy has been replaced by a false banking economy since 1970. The term is that our economy has been financialized.
I have no real idea when our economy will begin to recover, but I can remember when Paul Volker created the recession in the early 80's to destroy inflationary expectations, and just getting everyone to realize how big the changes were going to be took him four years. It'll probably take that long for people to get over the idea that the economy is going to "bounce-back" on its own like it "normally" does.
After that, it will take at least a decade of intense rebuilding of the economy and especially of the trained and experienced workforce before we begin to see a real recovery. America hasn't done anything like that since the Depression and the post WW II era.
Japan's experience is quite instructive.
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Silence
December 12, 2009 9:06 AM in reply to Richardxx
Good post. Yes. The problems run deep and it could get worse. There are many factors in play, making it difficult to point to any one set of solutions.
That said, business owners need time to evaluate and formulate solutions. Instead, govt is bombarding them with new and expensive obstacles. It is scaring the bejeezus out of people and causing businesses to run to a fallback position, peak efficiency. Sure, this brings forth stronger profits, but not jobs.
There is a place for govt. However, I would like to see our govt step back and allow the private sector to carefully evaluate the issues at hand. The private sector will let govt on what it can do to facilitate a solid and long-lasting recovery.
Both must work together. Unfortunately, politics tends to ruin productive partnerships.
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Signalman
December 12, 2009 2:33 PM in reply to Silence
"However, I would like to see our govt step back and allow the private sector to carefully evaluate the issues at hand. The private sector will let govt on what it can do to facilitate a solid and long-lasting recovery.
Both must work together."
I have no interest whatsoever in allowing the private sector a free hand in fixing the problems they created. We don't permit arsonists to evade prosecution by rebuilding the structures they destroy, we don't give bank robbers a pass for returning the money and we don't permit rapists to stay out of jail by marrying their victims and raising their spawn. And so it should be with the banks, investment houses and mortgage companies that all contributed to the economic meltdown.
How there aren't hundreds of Wall Street Masters of The Universe cooling their heels in Federal PMITA prison right now, I haven't any idea. But I do know that I'd rather see them in jail than permitted any opportunity to address their failures. Given that there apparently aren't any consequences on the horizon for their misdeeds, I fail to understand what would compel them to fix a damn thing.
Give them a free hand, and they'll just rape the economy again. And you're a useful idiot for advocating that we go along with it.
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Silence
December 12, 2009 3:38 PM in reply to Signalman
Who said anything about giving Wall street a free hand?
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Signalman
December 12, 2009 3:40 PM in reply to Silence
Who said you did?
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Silence
December 12, 2009 3:58 PM in reply to Signalman
I did? Where?
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Signalman
December 12, 2009 4:21 PM in reply to Silence
Dagnabbit; posting SNAFU. See below at December 12, 2009 4:20 PM for your takedown.
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runfastandwin
December 12, 2009 4:46 PM in reply to Richardxx
I guess we're about to find out if you are wrong or right. I am going to say, WRONG. We are in WAY better shape than Japan ever was or could ever be even in your wildest wet dream. They have nothing to teach us other than buying real estate in foreign countries at vastly inflated prices leaves your country both without the money and without the real estate. Whatever else we may have lost, the real estate is still here. In fact I have been hearing this tripe for my whole life, first we were going to have our lunch ate by Japan, then we were going to end up like Japan, then the same thing with the EU, now we hear all the saem claptrap about China. None of them hold a candle to America pal.
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Richardxx
December 13, 2009 11:13 AM in reply to runfastandwin
The American economy is very much unlike that of Japan. True. It is much larger and used to have a much broader base, although with the four to five decade financialization of the American economy we have lost a lot of our economic resiliency. The fact is that our economy used to be built on our ability to harness the ability to convert petroleum into increased productivity, we had the largest free-trade geographic area under a single currency in the world, and especially important, the dollar has been the base currency for the world since WW II.
Unfortunately we have been wasting much of the profit from American productivity on the military-industrial complex (which is primarily economic cost to the economy and does not built much to replace itself) and since 1979 we have been building the wealth of the middle east out of American dollars. Our GDP has shifted from producing agricultural products and industrial products to the economically sterile profits of banks who make their money by consolidate large amounts of money and then skimming as much as possible off the top, then sending it to the highest return investments in the third world. But banks allocate value, they don't build it, and they skim large sums off the top as the money passes through their hands. The result is that the American economy has become a great deal less resilient when it faces economic problems.
Japan is also a lot less economically resilient, but the main reason for that is that Japan has to import almost all the energy it uses. And the Yen is not the key international currency the dollar is. They also have an aging population and resist allowing immigration to keep their economy going.
I don't suggest that this is a comprehensive description of either the economy of the US or of Japan, but it does hit some highlights. I do suggest that Japan is doing a whole lot with very little in the way of economic and natural resources, while the U.S. has massive economic and natural resources and has squandered much of what it had since 1960 or so, and is still headed the wrong way. If Oil ceases to be measured primarily in U.S. dollars, that is going to strike a major blow to American international economic competitiveness. The other big threat is if China can somehow shift its dollar-denominated investments into forms that are less vulnerable to a drop in the value of the dollar. The cost of American energy would then sky-rocket, losing us most of our productivity advantages.
Yes, the U.S. has economic advantages including size, (still) cheap energy and centrality in international trade. But those advantages are historic and not growing. Every one of them is under threat. The idea that we can continue to simply accept them as given and assume that nothing is going to knock America off its economic perch is a fantasy based on simply not looking at what is really happening.
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ilovebacon
December 12, 2009 10:33 AM in reply to ilovebacon
All indicators point to a more rapid economic recovery than expected. Jobs will follow. And, note, unemployment unexpectedly fell, it didn't grow.
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masanf
December 11, 2009 6:53 PM
Glad to the see the people here have more election and political forecasting expertise than pretty much every expert there is. PPP recently stated that the 8 most vulnerable Senate seats ALL favor Republicans, but not to worry, because the Republicans lost NY-23. And the clown from the DCCC accused someone else of being in la la land? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
The Republicans don't need to do anything. They only have to sit back and watch the Democratic Party screw up, which they are doing nicely. And the assertion in this piece that the Dems might actually pick up Senate seats is a total joke.
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runfastandwin
December 11, 2009 7:38 PM in reply to masanf
Say whatever happened to President Guiliani. As I recall pretty much every expert there is had him safely in the White House at about this time in the 2008 cycle...also Vice President Palin was a big winner on the way to Washington in September of 2008.
Until the Republicans show me something in November, I will stay with the winners.
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Signalman
December 12, 2009 2:36 PM in reply to masanf
I look forward to seeing the Tea Party split the conservative vote. Even you should be able to do that math.
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cube3u
December 12, 2009 4:08 PM in reply to masanf
Wrong. Obama's election was accompanied by a SCOUR of neighborhoods and that information is still available to us in the new databases the Democratic Party has assembled. We'll hit the streets and phones with smart data and get our supporters out to the polls.
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runfastandwin
December 11, 2009 7:35 PM
Here's my prediction: Democrats pick up or lose 5-10 seats in the House, keep everything they have in the Senate and also pick up Florida and Ohio. Maybe even the diaper seat in Louisiana. Possibly even Missouri. For sure New Hampshire.
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Richardxx
December 12, 2009 1:03 AM in reply to runfastandwin
But... But... That would mean that after the 2010 election there would never again be a reason why Joe Lieberman would be relevant to anything! Even the media might quit talking to him.
Can we even hope for such an outstanding outcome??
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masanf
December 11, 2009 7:35 PM
"But the Republicans so far haven't presented big new ideas, and some of their plans have been debunked or mocked for lack of specificity. The Democrats are starting to get traction with the "party of no" accusations."
And yet the generic ballot and party ID numbers keep getting narrower. Three of the last four polls show the Republicans with a lead in the generic ballot.
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runfastandwin
December 11, 2009 7:43 PM in reply to masanf
And 3 out of 4 doctors recommend sugarless gum for their patients that chew gum. Go back to redstate, troll.
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Richardxx
December 12, 2009 1:23 AM in reply to masanf
What's happening is that the way the Republicans have blocked anything at all from happening in Congress is making both parties look worse.
But the Republicans aren't looking better. Far from it. ANY health care bill will show up as a loss for the Republicans and a win for the Democrats. That has created an atmosphere of desperation in the Republican Party which in part explains their effort to throw everything into the current HCR battle. But all they have is the tactic of becoming the party of "NO!"
Terrorists operate by making it impossible for the government to govern, so that their political wing gets invited in to governmental power. People everywhere demand the stability that government provides. The low polling by the Republicans does not make it likely that they can make the shift from the party of "NO!" (which is the political equivalence to terrorism) to one that is invited in to govern.
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ilovebacon
December 12, 2009 1:54 PM in reply to Richardxx
Intelligent posts, Richard. The party of "NO!" is quite different from the party of "NEW" that Newt ushered in. Today's GOP doesn't have that "hope on the horizon" mirage that the early '90s one did. Newt was in the right place at the right time. Whenever one tries to repeat oneself, it's disastrous. Case-in-point: Woodstock 1999.
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Signalman
December 12, 2009 2:41 PM in reply to masanf
No, they don't. Rasmussen polls are poorly-done outliers. You might as well base your rants on what you think the Tooth Fairy whispers in your ear at night.
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sirclown
December 11, 2009 7:44 PM
Republican problems:
1. They oppose spending to reduce unemployment and repealing Bush's tax cut.
New Bloomberg poll on spending to stimulate job growth:
"The poll contains some of the features Obama announced in his jobs plan. Two-thirds of Americans back boosting spending on infrastructure. Six of 10 also support more spending on alternative energy to stimulate job growth, another measure Obama announced."
"A Bloomberg National Poll conducted Dec. 3-7 shows two- thirds of Americans favor taxing the rich to reduce the deficit."
2. Republicans unanimously voted against the new financial regulations passed today which the public overwhelmingly wants.
3. A majority of Americans support a Public Option.
The GOP has dealt the Democrats a great hand to play if they get the messaging right. The party of no progress. Can we convince voters not to mindlessly change parties because they are frustrated with the economy but to instead chase obstructionists out of office? Yes, with good voter turnout.
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CT Voter
December 12, 2009 12:25 PM in reply to sirclown
if they get the messaging right
Which, if history is any indication, they won't. Or they won't want to. How else do you explain the fact that 99% of Americans are unaffected by the estate tax issue, yet Republicans were able to use it against Democrats?
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cube3u
December 11, 2009 8:54 PM
This is certainly what the GOP is going to try and accomplish. Midterm elections (without a Prez on the ticket) have much lower turnout than those elections where a Prez is on the ticket. If a state is able to include issues on the ballot, either the GOP base or the Democratic Party base can be energized to turn out and vote. Miscalculations are still possible.
Take the Missouri 2006 election for US Senate--an incumbent was "unelected" and McCaskill went to Washington. On the ballot was the ending of stem cell research--something the GOP thought would energize their base. It certainly did that. But it also energized the educational and medical folks--including some well-known state Republicans to gasp in horror. The Democrats and independents did turn out and McCaskill was elected.
I believe that the addition of an "opt out of federal health care" on the ballot would energize both sides. So I believe Missouri is safe--we'll have folks working the election and turning out to vote because healthcare is a real problem.
All of this is erased if the Congressional Democrats stumble and fall on healthcare or tie up our government processes in any way. But Rove and his ability to turn out and to depress various voting groups is still in play. The "left" struggles now with declining unions (who can certainly turn out their members to work on campaigns and to turn out voters) and their impact on elections--especially midterm elections.
Bottom line? I do view those carping on the "left" to take the issue picture to heart and not the election result picture. We are still in danger of tying up Congress. The danger is not in the House, but in the Senate.
Just sayin'.
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ilovebacon
December 12, 2009 1:59 PM in reply to cube3u
Right. The House will stay Dem. But the Senate will not have 60+, which is what we need.
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human
December 12, 2009 7:52 PM in reply to ilovebacon
yeah, cuz having 60 now has made such a difference, not.
although we really only have 58, at best, but I doubt it would even matter much if there were 62 or 63, because there are still going to be at least 5-10 corporate whores in our own party to derail anything meaningful.
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cube3u
December 13, 2009 10:07 AM in reply to human
"...derail anything meaningful." This is BS. It takes time to unwind things that have been in the making since the 1970's. War is very hard to unwind--unless we are a completely amoral people and just love to go in, smash things and people, and leave the place in a shambles. Etc., etc., etc. If you're unhappy at the pace of change, RUN FOR OFFICE.
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nova voter
December 11, 2009 11:04 PM
u.s. voters never learn. they elect republicans. the republicans fuck the country up in every conceivable way. voters get pissed. so they elect democrats. democrats fix most of the republicans' fuck ups, in the face of vociferous attempts by the republicans to keep their fuck ups in place. voters say to themselves, "well, it's all fixed now. let's give the republicans another chance." they elect the republicans, who once again fuck everything up beyond recognition. shocker, the voters get pissed and elect the adults to once again come in and fix everything.
it's like the electorate suffers from battered wife syndrome or something.
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acf_ma
December 12, 2009 12:13 AM
Sure it could happen again, but I don't see the conditions as being the same. Yes, the health reform issue is back, but there are several major differences. First, in '94, the Democrats were at the worn out end of some 40 years as the majority party, and had already suffered through a couple of weak election cycles. Add to that the checkgate congressional banking scandal, and you have a majority ripe for the picking. The Republicans were new by comparison, and the Democrats couldn't escape responsibility for the economy after so many years in control. Fast forward to today, and we have a still very new Democratic majority led by a president barely a year into his term. There is no worn out group there. Also, as an alternative, the Republicans are a scant couple of years out of majority control, and just off 8 years of the Bush presidency. They can't escape responsibility for today's state of economic affairs, and are so briefly out of majority control that they can't possibly offer themselves as an alternative solution to things especially when the solutions they keep proposing are the same ones that put us in this hole in the first place. There's a word for someone who keeps doing the same thing over and over when it fails each time, and intelligent isn't it.
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Hidden Oak
December 12, 2009 3:57 AM
It's not going to happen. With what demographic are the GOP weakest? Young voters. My kids HATE these assholes, and they are engaged and will vote.
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acf_ma
December 12, 2009 11:07 AM in reply to Hidden Oak
Hidden Oak:
While I agree with you about Republicans, especially those who operate on the national level, you have to remember where you live. In your state (I don't know where that is), public sentiment may support you, but there are many places where youth or not, Republicans have strong support.
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Silence
December 12, 2009 9:57 AM
Funny. The repubs = the party of no, no, no.
The Dems, on the other hand, are the party of go, go, go. The problem with go, go, go, is that without a coherent plan, it often leads to a nasty collision with a wall.
Just a thought.
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NobleCommentDecider
December 12, 2009 12:06 PM in reply to Silence
The Republicans were the party of "go, go, go" invade Iraq and the Democrats "no, no, no" on the worst foreign policy catastrophe in decades.
The Bush/Cheney October 2002 pre-mid-term political jujitsu Iraq Use of Force Resolution failed by a big margin among Democrats while almost every Republican voted to pass it and to give Bush a "go, go, go" blank check to invade Iraq.
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Jason Miller
December 12, 2009 2:29 PM in reply to NobleCommentDecider
More than half the democratic party in the house and a similar margin in the senate voted to go to war. Revisionist history might feel better than the truth, but we need to learn from the past in order not to repeat it.
The idea that our current wars are the beginning of bi-partisan support for huge and growing "defense" budgets is simply laughable and is again not keeping with the historical record.
The American Empire has worn both red and blue boots in the years since World War II ended.
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cube3u
December 12, 2009 3:39 PM in reply to Jason Miller
Wrong. The Iraq War Resolution was opposed by the majority of Congressional Democrats--with votes, not rhetoric. In the House a majority of Democrats, led by Nancy Pelosi, opposed the resolution. In the Senate a majority of Democrats voted for the resolution. Overall, though, the majority of Congressional Democrats voted "nay" on this resolution.
Were you referring to something else here?
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Jason Miller
December 12, 2009 4:26 PM in reply to cube3u
Did you go to the actual votes I linked to? Enough democrats voted for the resolution that it passed handily. Revisionist history does none of us any favors.
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cube3u
December 12, 2009 11:53 PM in reply to Jason Miller
You said, "More than half the democratic party in the house..." And your link has 81 yea and 126 nay. That matches exactly what I said--a majority of Democrats in the House voted nay. What's your beef?
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Jason Miller
December 13, 2009 8:40 AM in reply to cube3u
Apologies for getting the percentages wrong, but the point remains that a huge number of democrats in the senate and house voted for this war.
Further, they voted to fund the wars every single year for the last seven. Congress long-ago abdictated its role in sending the nation to war and bringing it home again.
The fact remains the Obama is doubling-down on Afghanistan. What is your beef? Are unable to hold your party accountable for the part they play in our on-going national tragedies?
As long as we remain partisans at the grassroots, our country will continue to devolve until there is nothing left.
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cube3u
December 13, 2009 10:20 AM in reply to Jason Miller
Let me make the point again. "Huge" numbers of Democrats still comes out a minority of the party--significant, yes, but still a minotiry.
Your huge accusation really belongs to the GOP--only SIX in the House voted against the Iraq War. Six. Now, that's huge.
I prefer going after the worst problem in terms of percentages before tackling the lesser problem. Just my take on things.
If you want to start a discussion on the War, then start a blog in the Cafe and I'll be happy to wade into the weeds.
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Jason Miller
December 13, 2009 11:14 AM in reply to cube3u
80 out of 200 is not an insignificant percentage. I think 40% is actually much more than a "minority" opinion if the argument is that the democratic party is firmly anti-war. The historical record shows that clearly isn't the case.
I never said a word about the GOP because their support indicates they lost their mind as well. But the notion that the wars we are waging belong to any one party rather than the country as whole is ludicrous. Maybe when we decided to vote in bigger numbers than these, the blame can be foisted off on someone else.
Your perception of reality doesn't appear to include 7 years of war and three years of democratic control of Congress, the body charged with conducting the nation's wars. If the democratic party didn't support the war all these years, it would have already ended.
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cube3u
December 13, 2009 10:47 PM in reply to Jason Miller
Short answer? The majority of Congressional Democrats were against the colossally stupid war with Iraq. Again, we don't break the place and then leave abruptly...just not done.
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Signalman
December 12, 2009 2:45 PM in reply to Silence
"Just a thought."
Objection! There's no supporting evidence for your claim.
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BeyondKen
December 12, 2009 10:21 AM
The NY23 midterm congressional election ought to let us know how things might go next year.
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ilovebacon
December 12, 2009 10:35 AM
GOP is hellbent on nominating Teabagger approved candidates. Candidates the lunatic fringe love, but the center doesn't. They are making the mistake that enraged out-parties always make: they nominate rabid foamy-lipped polemics, then lose.
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Signalman
December 12, 2009 3:38 PM in reply to ilovebacon
+1
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theone718
December 12, 2009 10:41 AM
I don't care what anyone says. It's all about the economy baby. END.OF.STORY. If the economy FEELS like it is improving, unemployment can still be at 8-9 percent but if things FEEL like they are getting better, things will be alright. If they don't....well it will get ugly.
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Mooser
December 12, 2009 11:07 AM
"The GOP reminds me of that middle-aged guy with long hair still driving the camaro and listening to classic rock who thinks he's still in high school."
It's not a Camaro, you idiot, it's a Firebird, and all the chicks dig it.
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sean
December 12, 2009 12:23 PM
Aarrgh!!!
My eyes are still burning from the Michael Steele/intern slideshow when I'm presented with Shelly Winters and Mitch McConnell atarring in 'Posideon Adventure 4, Another New Ship!'...Wake me when they're crawling across the ceiling.
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ilovebacon
December 12, 2009 1:57 PM in reply to sean
Haha. Michael Steele = Steve Urkel.
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metetzky
December 12, 2009 12:32 PM
Even if R's got 51 Senate seats, it wouldn't matter, because in today's Senate you need 60 votes to pass anything. Or am I wrong, in that they would simply start screaming "Up or down vote!" as they did with Alito & Roberts, and D's would quickly cave?
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wbgonne
December 12, 2009 1:12 PM in reply to metetzky
I think you are wrong. In today's Senate the DEMOCRATS need 60 (at least) to get anything done. The Republicans can get things done with far fewer because there will be ConservaDem defections on everything meaningful. Where the Democrats are failing most of all is in changing the discussion in the country from base-line conservative to base-line progressive.
Want to know why the Dems are failing to shift the debate, Lous Girl, Nova, NCSteve, etc.?
Obama is not taking the lead on domestic issues. We only have one president and when he has the skills Obama does, it is sinful to waste that resource.
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conniptionfit
December 12, 2009 1:36 PM
Betcher ass it could happen again! Only, it won't be a rethuglican revolution because anyone thinks the 'thugs could do a better job. It'll be because the Democratic leadership has so betrayed their voters that no one will be bothered to go out and vote for the. Why bother to vote if you already have ample demonstration that the agenda that you worked so hard for is nothing but a minor distraction to the politicians money-grubbing and lobbyist ass liking? Why bother if the actual legislative agenda you get is in essence the same whether you voted for Dems or 'thugs?
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dnegri
December 12, 2009 4:02 PM in reply to conniptionfit
Obama has 3 years remaining. He'll be even less likely to fulfill the agenda if your take on things becomes contagious and costs us a lot of seats. And while it's always nice to have the majority,
getting things passed in the House will be even more problematic if Progressives are among the victims.
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wbgonne
December 12, 2009 4:29 PM in reply to dnegri
Progressives need not and should not be the victims. The Conservadems should be replaced by Progressives. But if Obama truly wants that to happen he MUST start changing the debate in the country.
Between the stimulus bill and the Wall Street bailout (Part 2), Obama played into the hands of his political opponents who were trying to cast him as a vain elitist. Politically-speaking, the Republicans have played an abysmal hand quite well. Building on Hillary Clinton's nomination strategy the Republicans have relentlessly hammered away at Obama's strengths -- his oratory, his intelligence, the enthusiasm he engendered -- and they pretty much succeeded in neutralizing those advantages, if not turning them into liabilities. But it shouldn't be that way. As president Obama has enormous power to change the dynamic but so far he has only been let loose in foreign affairs. Obama has been invisible on health care. He left the stimulus to Congress, too. In my opinion, this is a serious mistake. These days more than ever, the one who succeeds in American politics is the one who frames the debate.
Obama has wonderful gifts and could, in my view, move the country even now. He could frame our domestic debates in new ways. Progressive ways. Obama can still do that, I believe. But he must try. And he must start very soon.
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cube3u
December 12, 2009 4:13 PM in reply to conniptionfit
You're part of the problem, my friend. Voting MATTERS. A failure to show up to vote allows the loonies to take charge. It over-inflates the power of the 27% looney-fringe.
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lapdogs
December 12, 2009 1:52 PM
With the way the Democrats, especially those who are from the DLC screw things up, there is a very good chance we could be seeing another 1994.
Independents are getting frustrated just like Democrats and they would be more likely to go the way of the Republican or another Independent on the ticket.
When the Democrats start acting and working LIKE DEMOCRATS, they will have the votes to get things done and bring the Independent voters back.
The worst thing people hate to see is inaction. Granted, the Republicans are throwing every roadblock up that they can find, but the Democrats have no excuses with a majority in every branch of The White House, The House of Reps and The Senate in not getting things passed.
Its the party's DINO Members who are screwing up the works.
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dnegri
December 12, 2009 3:59 PM in reply to lapdogs
I agree. But it's our RESPONSIBILITY to point that out to Dem voters. Not to punish the whole party, or their congessperson, because about 15% of Dems in Congress are mucking things up.
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ilovebacon
December 12, 2009 1:56 PM
I'd be worried if the GOP actually had good candidates and a coherent positive message. They don't. They also don't have money. Amazingly, Dems have raised significantly more than Repubs. This will be more like 2002, when we thought we Dems would take over. That went well, didn't it.
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cube3u
December 12, 2009 4:16 PM in reply to ilovebacon
Good candidates matter. Positions matter. Advertising matters. But the Democrats also have to get their supporters to the polls so they will vote. A good ground game ensures that. Nothing pushes one out the door more than a commitment to the guy/gal who lives two streets over. It works and these folks get out and vote.
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dnegri
December 12, 2009 3:58 PM
We'll be OK in the House IF the base turns out in those districts where the Repubs may have a chance. There's one near me and I intend to do what I can, in terms of money and driving a short distance, to help the incumbent (McNerney) with registration and especially GOTV.
Who know where independents will come down because they aren't a homogenous group by any means. But underscoring the paucity of ideas of the GOP, reminding voters that the people that run the party are the same ones that ran it under Bush, and letting the extremist label be applied should help us there.
But it does come down to the base. And that's less a question of "firing them up" than in getting them out and telling why it's important to them.
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Silence
December 12, 2009 4:04 PM
The could easily lose the mid-terms. The typical Dem supporter does not understand anything about our govt. Obama is a wealthy king or sorts. He's already in the White House. So, why vote?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ojd13kZlCA
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cube3u
December 12, 2009 4:20 PM in reply to Silence
Democrats don't plan on losing the midterms, silly one.
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dnegri
December 12, 2009 4:08 PM
This might be the case with Black and young first time voters in 2008. But the Dem seats that are in play aren't necessarily those in heavy Black districts. It's the base elsewhere. Meaning people who came out in 2006 and 2008 for starters.
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cube3u
December 12, 2009 4:24 PM in reply to dnegri
Perhaps true for some of the House races--but still get the voeters there. It's too late when one reads the election results the next day and the turnout was 12% and the Democrat lost by 200 votes.
Any of the Senate races will demand Democrats to turn out and vote. The metro areas in particular will need to vote.
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Signalman
December 12, 2009 4:20 PM
Nobody advocated giving Wall Street a free hand, and nobody claimed that you advocated it. But here's where *you're* the one being a useful idiot.
Even *without* a public-private partnership of some sort, the perpetrators of the economic meltdown are already going without legal consequences and penalties. The investment bankers, bond-rating agencies, mortgage-writers and eager-beaver traders who built a financial house of cards have largely gotten away with it. So what, exactly, is the imperative for them to partner with the government for anything? They got their profits and they got away with it. No need to get in bed with the government, unless perhaps more TARP money is forthcoming. And you saw how fast they gave it back once the pay caps were announced. Business is perfectly happy to take government assistance or to dictate government policy, but not interested at all in helping support government or to go along with governmental policies that help individuals more than they help business. And who, exactly, is it that votes?
Furthermore, though you may not realize it, public-private partnership is, more often than not, code for 'business dictating to government what it will and will not stand for.' The only significant instance of industry approaching government and *asking* to be regulated in the last century happened in the 1920s. Bonus points if you can name and describe it, and more bonus points if you can come up with another instance, which I don't believe you will.
In short, when you talk about government and business working together, I don't have the least bit of faith that it will work as you describe, or even as you hope. History quite simply proves otherwise.
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Signalman
December 12, 2009 4:25 PM in reply to Signalman
Above post is a reply to Silence that didn't nest properly in-thread.
Anyone who wants to take a stab at the 1920s event to which I refer is welcome to try. I'm pretty sure Silence won't have a clue.
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Silence
December 12, 2009 4:49 PM in reply to Signalman
The Dems are in charge. Why haven't they prosecuted "the perpetrators"?
Interesting, isn't it?
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Signalman
December 12, 2009 5:01 PM in reply to Silence
What's even more interesting is your implicit admission that prosecutions should be politically motivated. It is quite clear to me that the rule of law means little or nothing to you.
In addition, your failure to either note the 1920s event to which I referred -- or to present a similar event of your own discovery -- has been noted. You quite simply don't know what you're talking about.
You fail. As does your 'argument."
Next troll, please, I'm done carving this one up.
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Silence
December 12, 2009 5:49 PM in reply to Signalman
"Even *without* a public-private partnership of some sort, the perpetrators of the economic meltdown are already going without legal consequences and penalties."
These are your words - are they not? "Going without legal consequences and penalties".
Three navy seals are facing down a court martial for allegedly bloodying the delicate lip of a callous, murdering terrorist. Yet, the architects, "the perpetrators", of one of the worst financial meltdowns in American history face no legal action at all.
Why haven't the Dems pinned their hides to the side of a barn? Instead, they voted to award these perpetrators, these criminals, money to their keep operation functioning. Odd, very odd. Don't ya think?
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Signalman
December 12, 2009 6:02 PM in reply to Silence
You're an ignorant nitwit.
You can't answer the questions I've put to you, you don't know what you're talking about, and you misleadingly try to cast Democrats as enablers of Wall Street miscreants, when the Bush White House and Congressional Republicans had *sixteen months* to call for and/or bring prosecutions against them once the market collapsed -- all *before* President Obama took office. And what did they do in that time?
Nothing.
As far as your political angle goes, it's a total wash when it comes to Republicans vs. Democrats. That's hardly a compelling reason for anyone to go running over to the GOP side of the fence.
"These are your words - are they not? "Going without legal consequences and penalties".
Absolutely. And I stand by them. Bring on your best, Dudley.
"Three navy seals are facing down a court martial for allegedly bloodying the delicate lip of a callous, murdering terrorist. Yet, the architects, "the perpetrators", of one of the worst financial meltdowns in American history face no legal action at all."
What an irrelevant load of crap. Navy SEALS and terrorists have nothing whatsoever to do with Wall Street. Not only are you ignorant and misinformed, you can't even stay on topic. Tell me, foolish troll -- to what governmental action do I refer when I say that the only significant case of industry *asking* for government regulation in the last hundred years happened in the 1920s? Which one was it? And can you name any others?
"Why haven't the Dems pinned their hides to the side of a barn? Instead, they voted to award these perpetrators, these criminals, money to their keep operation functioning. Odd, very odd."
Just as odd as the GOP letting the meltdown happen on their watch, letting 16 months pass without calling for prosecutions while their boy was in the White House and just as odd as them not calling for prosecutions *now,* either. The fact that the Democrats are falling down on that particular job does not obviate the fact that the GOP has fallen down on ut just as badly. If you weren't so blindly partisan, you'd be able to see that.
"Don't ya think?"
I do think. And I am certain that you do not think. However, it has yet to be seen whether or not you are *capable* of thinking. Perhaps you may yet display some actual evidence of it. However, I do not hold out much hope for you.
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Silence
December 12, 2009 6:06 PM in reply to Signalman
So, you agree that both parties are essentially the same. See? We agree. That was easy, wasn't it?
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Signalman
December 12, 2009 6:27 PM in reply to Silence
"So, you agree that both parties are essentially the same."
I neither said nor thought any such thing, you reprehensible liar. I clearly said:
The fact that the Democrats are falling down on that particular job does not obviate the fact that the GOP has fallen down on ut just as badly. If you weren't so blindly partisan, you'd be able to see that.
Nothing in there about both parties being "essentially the same," you lying sack.
How about that 1920s thing, loser? Ready to admit your ignorance yet?
"See? We agree."
Not in the least. If you ever want to win my vote back for the GOP, you're going about it all wrong. And given my background and history, I'm in one of your key demographics. The GOP must really suck if it can't hold onto a disabled Army veteran who was raised in and still lives in the Deep South, and who voted for both Reagan and Bush the Elder.
"That was easy, wasn't it?"
Easy to take your dishonest self down, yes, absolutely. If you hadn't noticed, you have been owned, troll.
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Silence
December 12, 2009 7:00 PM in reply to Signalman
"The fact that the Democrats are falling down on that particular job does not obviate the fact that the GOP has fallen down on ut just as badly. If you weren't so blindly partisan, you'd be able to see that."
No need to keep repeating what most people already know. Both parties are equally corrupt and should be removed from office. I fully understand your point. The question is, do you understand your point?
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Signalman
December 12, 2009 7:18 PM in reply to Silence
"No need to keep repeating what most people already know."
There's absolutely a need for me to keep repeating what you dishonestly try to misrepresent. Stop trying to put words in my mouth, and I'll stop repeating myself, you dishonest dirtbag.
"Both parties are equally corrupt and should be removed from office."
There you go again, dishonestly putting words in my mouth. I neither said nor thought any such thing. I clearly said:
As far as your political angle goes, it's a total wash when it comes to Republicans vs. Democrats. That's hardly a compelling reason for anyone to go running over to the GOP side of the fence.
On this *particular point,* I have clearly indicated that there's no significant difference between how the two major American political parties have handled this matter. It's a long, long road from there to your mendacious construction of "(b)oth parties are equally corrupt and should be removed from office." I neither said nor thought any such thing, and your continued dishonesty has again been noted.
"I fully understand your point."
I doubt it, though it is quite clear that you will assiduously try to misrepresent it in your repeated and futile attempts to score points. That's really all you have, since you otherwise don't know what you're talking about with respect to economics, corporate regulation and Wall Street.
1920s event. You know what it was? It's okay to admit that you don't. I am well-informed and will gladly educate you.
"The question is, do you understand your point?"
Absolutely. And I also understand that you're an uninformed, ignorant, reprehensible liar.
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Silence
December 12, 2009 7:48 PM in reply to Signalman
"Even *without* a public-private partnership of some sort, the perpetrators of the economic meltdown are already going without legal consequences and penalties."
"The fact that the Democrats are falling down on that particular job does not obviate the fact that the GOP has fallen down on ut just as badly. If you weren't so blindly partisan, you'd be able to see that."
These are your words. Are they not? You pointed to behavior worthy of "legal consequences and penalties". You then explained that both parties have fallen down on their duties in dealing with the behavior. Correct?
Now, you're claiming that only the GOP is guilty of dereliction of duty, the party no longer in power, and anyone who says otherwise is dishonest and partisan. Is this correct?
Keep digging.
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Signalman
December 12, 2009 8:19 PM in reply to Silence
"These are your words. Are they not? You pointed to behavior worthy of "legal consequences and penalties". You then explained that both parties have fallen down on their duties in dealing with the behavior. Correct?"
Incorrect. You are conflating my objection to the lack of consequences and penalties for the members of the financial community whose mismanagement, malfeasance and ethical lapses triggered the market meltdown to my complaint that neither party has done anything about it. Those are two *different* and *distinct* objections of mine -- not one, as you apparently believe. You have either misunderstood me or else you are once again trying to misrepresent my position. Either way, you're wrong.
I have clearly called for consequences to devolve to the corporate architects of the economic meltdown, not to the Congressional enablers, as you so dishonestly imply. Clearly, for all your cut-and-paste, you're not very thorough. Reread:
The investment bankers, bond-rating agencies, mortgage-writers and eager-beaver traders who built a financial house of cards have largely gotten away with it. So what, exactly, is the imperative for them to partner with the government for anything? They got their profits and they got away with it.
Please try harder to read my posts; you overlook much. If the words I'm using are too big for you, feel free to ask me to break things down into smaller, more digestible chunks for you.
"Now, you're claiming that only the GOP is guilty of dereliction of duty"
Two errors on your part.
1) I have neither said nor implied "dereliction of duty" on the part of either party. That would be you dishonestly trying to put words in my mouth again.
2) I have repeatedly and *clearly* stated that *both* the Democrats and Republicans have done a poor job of investigating and prosecuting any of the individuals and organizations whose mismanagement and ethical lapses contributed to the economic meltdown. Any attempt on your part to claim that I have *exclusively* blamed one party or the other is quite simply a lie. In short, *you* are lying again.
It used to be the case that conservatives were truthful, honest, and fiercely proud of it. Those days are gone, and consequently I'm no longer part of the Republican Party.
"the party no longer in power"
But which *was* in power for sixteen months during the market meltdown. And which presided over a net contraction in the job market -- job creation under President Bush didn't even keep up with *population growth,* let alone replace all the jobs lost in the economic wake of 9/11.
"and anyone who says otherwise is dishonest and partisan. Is this correct?"
It is not. Posters (like you) who misrepresent the words of others are dishonest. Posters (like you) who claim that other posters have said things that they haven't are dishonest. Posters (like you) who blame one party for something that both parties are doing are partisan. Posters (like you) who implyt that ethical lapses on the past of both major parties are really only a problem for one party are partisan.
"Keep digging."
(laughing) I *own* you, troll. And you will return to provide me with further amusement.
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Signalman
December 12, 2009 7:33 PM in reply to Silence
Let's get you back on topic, cowboy. And you can refrain from making this a political rant; I fully recognize that both the Democrats and Republicans are doing a poor job of addressing the financial malfeasance that brought on the economic collapse. Act like an adult and respond directly to the points I'm making here, instead of to the points you wish I would make. Otherwise, just shove off, because you pretty clearly have a reason to pull the discussion off topic with BS distractions like terrorists, Navy SEALs and your partisan complaints about Democrats (while simultaneously overlooking the exact same failures on the part of Republicans). I'm pretty sure your reason is that you're uninformed and ignorant, and you're afraid of being exposed.
In other words, get on topic and stay on topic. Or else put your tail between your legs and slink away.
***
Nobody advocated giving Wall Street a free hand, and nobody claimed that you advocated it. But here's where *you're* the one being a useful idiot.
Even *without* a public-private partnership of some sort, the perpetrators of the economic meltdown are already going without legal consequences and penalties. The investment bankers, bond-rating agencies, mortgage-writers and eager-beaver traders who built a financial house of cards have largely gotten away with it. So what, exactly, is the imperative for them to partner with the government for anything? They got their profits and they got away with it. No need to get in bed with the government, unless perhaps more TARP money is forthcoming. And you saw how fast they gave it back once the pay caps were announced. Business is perfectly happy to take government assistance or to dictate government policy, but not interested at all in helping support government or to go along with governmental policies that help individuals more than they help business. And who, exactly, is it that votes?
Furthermore, though you may not realize it, public-private partnership is, more often than not, code for 'business dictating to government what it will and will not stand for.' The only significant instance of industry approaching government and *asking* to be regulated in the last century happened in the 1920s. Bonus points if you can name and describe it, and more bonus points if you can come up with another instance, which I don't believe you will.
In short, when you talk about government and business working together, I don't have the least bit of faith that it will work as you describe, or even as you hope. History quite simply proves otherwise.
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human
December 12, 2009 8:10 PM in reply to Signalman
excellent takedown of this ignorant teabagger troll, Signalman.
you have far more patience than most of us here. He's under the delusion that the teabagger movement represents some sort of novel third party, as opposed to just being the loud, obnoxious ignorant extreme of the GOP. I also find it extremely amusing that he actually thinks they represent small business, as opposed to an all-white, racist, ignorant, fat bunch of disability recipients who want to "keep the government out of my Social Security and Medicare!"
You had a couple of them who were actually saved by government medical workers after they collapsed with heart attacks at their most recent Capitol Hill protest.
Irony, thy name is Teabagger.
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Signalman
December 12, 2009 8:35 PM in reply to human
I note that on another thread that he makes unsupported and unverifiable claims about receiving government payments and about being rich. It is certainly true that the internet is full of BS artists; I feel relatively sure that this fellow, who makes a fine internet chew-toy, is just another one of those.
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Silence
December 12, 2009 8:15 PM in reply to Signalman
"Business is perfectly happy to take government assistance or to dictate government policy, but not interested at all in helping support government or to go along with governmental policies that help individuals more than they help business."
Tens of thousands of voters called and protested against the govt bailouts. The bailouts happened anyway. What does that tell you about our govt and it's policies?
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=h2008-101
http://www.opencongress.org/vote/2008/s/213
Come on. You can do it.
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Signalman
December 12, 2009 8:32 PM in reply to Silence
"Tens of thousands of voters called and protested against the govt bailouts. The bailouts happened anyway. What does that tell you about our govt and it's policies?"
*Exactly,* you stupid chimpanzee. Business called the tune for government to dance to, and so business got what it wanted. What do you not understand about this? This is *exactly* what I was telling you in the post to which you were responding, nitwit.
"Come on. You can do it."
I'm not following any link you post unless and until you can answer the question I've been asking you all evening.
The last significant time industry approached the US government and *asked* to be regulated was in the 1920s. As part of that regulation, a new government agency was created which still exists and still does the job for which it was created.
There are *two* Federal agencies that meet this definition (two different industries approached the government during the 1920s seeking to be regulated). Identify either one.
And then explain to me why it's been ~80 years since industry *asked* for government regulation instead of *dictating* how government would treat it.
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Silence
December 12, 2009 8:41 PM in reply to Signalman
Can't bear to see the truth - your beloved Dems dancing to the tune of Wall street.
This was of my personal favorite:
AIG subsidiary parties in style in OC, two weeks after bailout
http://taxdollars.freedomblogging.com/2008/10/02/after-federal-bailout-aig-fetes-in-style-in-oc/
Have a pleasant evening.
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Signalman
December 12, 2009 8:49 PM in reply to Silence
"Can't bear to see the truth - your beloved Dems dancing to the tune of Wall street."
(laughing) :D
You ignorant tool, I've been *stipulating* to the fact that they're doing it ever since I started taking you down on this thread. Can you not read?
"This was of my personal favorite:
AIG subsidiary parties in style in OC, two weeks after bailout"
Yeah, I was already aware of that. I *work* in the financial industry.
"Have a pleasant evening."
I will, having beaten you down.
Don't forget to check the integrity of your plastic sheets. You wouldn't want to wake up with a pee-sodden mattress.
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Silence
December 12, 2009 9:17 PM in reply to Signalman
Oops! This just popped up on my news tracker. I thought you might some encouragement in this article after your lengthy diatribe about business never asking the govt to regulate it.
Shahien Nasiripour
shahien@huffingtonpost.com | HuffPost Reporting
Bank-Friendly Dems Extract Big Win For Wall Street
.......snip......
Working on behalf of the big banks, the New Dems were able to extract a compromise that will allow federal regulations to preempt state laws on a case-by-case basis.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/10/new-dems-extract-big-win_n_386787.html
Good night.
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Signalman
December 12, 2009 10:10 PM in reply to Silence
"Oops! This just popped up on my news tracker. I thought you might some encouragement in this article after your lengthy diatribe about business never asking the govt to regulate it.
I never said any such thing. In fact, I've been *challenging* you all evening to tell me about one or two specific instances that you simply can't name. That's because you're ignorant and uninformed.
Furthermore, do you even *read* the stuff you post? The headline itself disagrees with you.
"Bank-Friendly Dems Extract Big Win For Wall Street"
Yeah. That's not business *asking* for regulation. That's business *dictating to* government. You can't actually read, can you?
" . . . compromise that will allow federal regulations to preempt state laws on a case-by-case basis."
And if there was a single fragment of evidence in that story that banks had gone to Congress and had *asked* for additional regulation, you'd have posted it. But there's not, you didn't, and you fail again. Fool.
"Good night."
Do you mean it this time, or are you just lying again?
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dnegri
December 12, 2009 10:47 PM in reply to Silence
Dems may be at the dance but it's still the Republicans who are conducting the orchestra and selecting the music.
And while it's a minority of Dems (the NDC) who are at the heart of this, it's not most Dems.,
And the fact that every Repub voted against the Bill demonstrates that they thought that it went "too far" (I know, I followed all three days of debate).
So, we may have only gotten a half or two-thirds filled glass, but with Republicans there wouldn't even be a glass.
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Jason Miller
December 14, 2009 9:50 AM in reply to Signalman
Guess you missed this vote last October. The democratic Congress enabled the bailout and then doubled down within a few months of Obama taking office. Both parties are corrupt and beholden to special interests. These facts are part of the public record and are indisputable.
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Signalman
December 14, 2009 10:30 AM in reply to Jason Miller
"Guess you missed this vote last October."
I missed nothing. And I'm about to educate you, pal.
"The democratic Congress enabled the bailout and then doubled down within a few months of Obama taking office."
With the acquiescence of Congressional GOP party members. It's kind of like how some Democrats voted for the AUMF in Iraq; it's essentially stinky dog poop that you can't wipe off your shoes, no matter how much you try. The first round of bailouts wouldn't have happened without the votes of the GOP. Do you need a list of Republicans who voted for it?
And what *you* missed is that President Reagan did the exact same thing early in his first term. Reagan's "Prime the Pump" was exactly the same as Bush's "Bailout." You probably aren't old enough to remember that. And your memory probably isn't long enough to recall that VP Cheney said "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." So if you have anything negative to say about the bailout, you can either show me where you denounced either Reagan or Cheney during the aforementioned events, or else you can pucker up and kiss my nether regions. Heavy deficit spending is a Republican invention. Don't get all upset now that the Democrats are doing it, too. Find something else to snivel and whine about.
"Both parties are corrupt and beholden to special interests."
I'm sure that's true to varying degrees. But I'm also sure that it doesn't constitute a good reason to switch parties.
"These facts are part of the public record and are indisputable."
Your personal value judgment is of no consequence to me. But your misinformed attempt to bring up historical matters in an attempt to score points is quite entertaining. I do hope you'll do it again.
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Jason Miller
December 14, 2009 10:36 AM in reply to Signalman
Some voted for it? 40% voting for the war is a little bit more than some, but I like your overly aggressive "debating" style. Must go-over huge at parties.
"But, but, but..." the other guy did it first is no sort of defense for these sorts of policies. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss, right?
Pathetic.
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Signalman
December 14, 2009 11:18 AM in reply to Jason Miller
"Some voted for it? 40% voting for the war is a little bit more than some,"
Your concession and agreement has been noted. Next?
"but I like your overly aggressive "debating" style. Must go-over huge at parties."
I give what I get, and if you're going to come at me with a "guess you missed" gambit, I'm going to dish it right back at you, hard. If you want politeness from me, then bring it. OTOH, if you want to come out fighting, I'll give that right back to you, as well.
I've been following your comments for quite some time, and I well recall your whiny threat-to-leave blog post from earlier this fall about how you feel the level of discourse in here has fallen off. Well, if you think it sucks so much, then either try raising it, or else shove off like you said you might. For someone who's whining about the level of discourse here, I don't see you doing anything to increase it. In fact, your first reply to me was quite rude and intemperate for someone who ostensibly has such delicate sensibilities.
"But, but, but..." the other guy did it first is no sort of defense for these sorts of policies."
Who offered a defense? Conservatives pretty much *invented* deficit spending (see Reagan) and spent most of the first decade of this century engaging in it and defending it (see Bush, Cheney), and only now are they getting upset about it. I haven't offered the least bit of a defense for it -- I'm pointing out the hypocrisy inherent in conservative attacks *against* it.
In times of economic downturn, government is the investor and spender of last resort. That was true during Reagan's first term, and it's true right now in Obama's first term. The mistake the Republicans (and Clinton) made was in pursuing deficit spending as permanent economic policy, *even during economic expansion.* Surely you can see that.
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss, right?"
Didn't say it, didn't think it. Please stop putting words in my mouth.
"Pathetic."
You certainly are.
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Jason Miller
December 16, 2009 8:03 AM in reply to Signalman
Word.
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Signalman
December 22, 2009 9:19 PM in reply to Jason Miller
Your follow-up concession is noted and appreciated.
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dnegri
December 12, 2009 4:25 PM
About Independents: except those (maybe a third of the group) who are outright fiscal conservatives, and who left the GOP, my hope is that they'll be the ones to stay home in districts where neither candidate excites them.
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ilovebacon
December 12, 2009 8:00 PM
A year ago from today the GOP was "dead." Today the Dems are "dead." Who the hell knows what it will be a year from now. Americans' political tastes are swinging like a pendulum on amphetamines.
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jadeba
December 12, 2009 8:42 PM
Don't come here often, mostly on HuffPo but the anger really got to me. A contributing factor to a repub take over may be the progressives who keep threatening to vote every, and I mean every incumbent, instead of the Blue Dogs or the ones who clearly should be sent packing.
Honestly, they sound like Teabaggers. They're so pissed off, they're willing to "cut off your nose to spite your face". I'm a progressive, but if this catches on - it's the end of the progressive movement. I may take a lot of heat for this here but aren't we a bit smarter than that?
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dnegri
December 12, 2009 10:43 PM in reply to jadeba
This is why over on HP I've challenged people who threaten it to provide their district and reps names. I'm willing to bet there are a lot of people saying this from either red districts or good safe Prog districts. In other words, easy to make those threats when you know it won't be biting you directly.
But the larger issue with Progs is that they need to take a page from the Cons playbook. The Cons are extremely patient. They tend to take what they can get at election time, and if rebuffed just regroup and try again. And they don't bail and go off and sulk when they feel the people they elect don't live up to their total expectations (though I will qualify this by saying that the tea party movement might change this dynamic). Anyway, Progs seem to have this "all or nothing" approach to an election and its aftermath.
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Mauimom
December 12, 2009 10:47 PM
"Worn out"?? Hell, the "base" is PISSED! Hop on over to DailyKos or FireDogLake and read what folks are saying about Obama and Democrats. In particular, check out their reactions to the lame "begging for money" e-mails sent out by the DNC, OFA et al. at the same time Obama is throwing progressives under the bus.
This is not "cutting off one's nose to spite one's face." This is anger at being taken for granted, hoodwinked and lied to for so long, with the belief by Rahm & Obama of "well where else can they go?"
No, smart progressives won't be voting for teabaggers or Republicans, but they won't be openig their wallets/checkbooks, heading down to the phone bank, canvasing GOTV or all the other things Dems have relied on us for.
That "oh, but think how awful the alternative would be" rings pretty hollow when Obama continues Bush's policies.
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dnegri
December 12, 2009 10:53 PM in reply to Mauimom
You need to get a bit of a grip on reality. First, Obama is not continuing Bush policies. If you're
surprised that Obama is staying in Afghanistan then you weren't following what he was saying on the campaign trail. If you're upset because Obama is still using TARP funds, he was in favor of TARP, as was McCain.
And if you reject in block the "alternative" scenario, ie. Speaker John Boehner....then reload that pistol because you can shoot yourself in the other foot in 2012 too and complete the
political suicide. Not to mention that for all the shortcomings, there have been some decent pieces of legislation coming out of the House....NONE OF WHICH would be the case were the Repubs in charge.
Anyway, setting all that quibbling aside. The issue for Progs is whether they're going to punish all Dems for the actions of about 15% of them. Since this is not a presidential election, instead of hunkering down, find a Prog (or even a semi-Prog) who's in a tough race and donate to him/her.
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johnnydoughey
December 13, 2009 2:27 AM
Let's see... The Republicans AND the Democrats have pretty much destroyed our nation, along with trampling on the patriots who have given their lives for this great country these past couple of centuries.
Of COURSE we will vote one of the mobs back in next time... considering we are sheep and MUST follow our leaders... even if it IS off the cliff...
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Silence
December 13, 2009 9:08 AM
Both parties are made up of Wall street whores and Obama is the long-legged mack daddy. Wake up and smell the corruption.
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Tim
December 13, 2009 9:13 AM
Every time the Republicans get into office the katrina the nation.
It's just a matter of how badly they katrina it.
Reagan had black friday. Nixon gave us watergate. Eisenhower the military industrial complex. Hoover/Coolidge gave us the great depression, paving the way for the rise of Hitler, WWII and the holocaust.
Bush Jr gave us 9/11, Katrina, and an economic melt down so severe it nearly destroyed global civilization, he left lower Manhattan, New Orleans and Detroit all lying in ruins.
To vote them back into office is to invite another Katrina. Who will it be this time? The northwest? The south? California? The economy (again)? The middle class? The entire country? The entire world?
Why trust these people? They turned Katrina from a proper noun into a verb.
We need a conservative opposition party, but we need one that doesn't specialize in destroying things.
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Silence
December 13, 2009 9:58 AM in reply to Tim
The Tea party is cleaning out the GOP. I suggest you folks do the same with your party.
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Signalman
December 13, 2009 10:06 AM in reply to Silence
"The Tea party is cleaning out the GOP."
Exactly like they did in NY-23. With a track record like that, I wouldn't be bragging about it if I were you.
I look forward to the Teabaggers splitting the conservative vote in 2010 and 2012.
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cube3u
December 13, 2009 10:21 AM in reply to Silence
No thanks. I'll continue helping the GOP clean out its ranks. See ya in 2010.
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Silence
December 13, 2009 10:49 AM in reply to cube3u
Yes. I understand that if you must dine with a big steaming pile of shit on your table, you would prefer that it was your own big, steaming pile of shit.
However, have you ever considered dining on clean table, without any big, steaming pile of shit?
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cube3u
December 13, 2009 10:37 PM in reply to Silence
The piles aren't even close to being equal. Heck, the Republican table is bowed in the middle. The Dem table has large clean spaces with placemats and napkins. Now that independent table is full of Leiberman.
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Signalman
December 13, 2009 11:01 AM
"Yes. I understand that if you must dine with a big steaming pile of shit on your table, you would prefer that it was your own big, steaming pile of shit."
And this is why the Republicans don't want to sitting down at the table. They have much shit to eat, and none of it is theirs.
"However, have you ever considered dining on clean table, without any big, steaming pile of shit?"
No need, since the table *belongs* to the Democrats. Now sit down, shut up and eat your whipped shit sandwich.
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Silence
December 13, 2009 11:24 AM in reply to Signalman
I won't be eating the shit sandwich. You will. BTW, I need a new set of gold clubs. Head on over to Home Depot and buy some Obama weather stuff with that tax rebate that will come from your own bank account.
Oh, and you could sure help me out by purchasing some over-priced, inefficient solar panels.
Thank you. Come again.
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Signalman
December 13, 2009 11:35 AM in reply to Silence
"I won't be eating the shit sandwich."
You will, and you are right now. Your breath smells like a sewer and your lips are brown. Remember to chew thorougly before swallowing.
"You will."
Just like we did in NY-23. (laughing) You teabagger trolls are so stupid, you don't even know how to count.
"BTW, I need a new set of gold clubs. Head on over to Home Depot and buy some Obama weather stuff with that tax rebate that will come from your own bank account."
And yours. All your money are belong to us. Your income will be taxed at an increased rate and parceled out to welfare recipients and sick jobless people. You will hate it, you will rage against it, and you will post impotently on the internet, but you will do as I have said. You will have no choice. I have spoken.
"Oh, and you could sure help me out by purchasing some over-priced, inefficient solar panels."
If one knows how to shop, over-pricing and inefficiency can easily be overcome. Then again, anyone with a lick of sense could just cut out the middleman in a purchase like that and buy directly from the manufacturer or a wholesaler. No need to include Home Depot in that equation at all.
Man, you're stupid.
"Thank you. Come again."
Yes, I shall continue to post and to own you. Now tell me the 1920s event I've been asking you about for nearly a day, ignorant teabagger troll. Tell me or else admit your ignorance and folly.
You will return, and you will post. I have spoken.
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Silence
December 13, 2009 12:02 PM in reply to Signalman
Tax free bonds and a tax free state. Mozy on up, little debtor, and pay me.
I don't make the rules. I play the game. Would I prefer a decent, honorable, competitive game of 8 ball? Sure. Real competition is what gets me off. I love eating the big dog's lunch.
However, when the only game in town is turd-ball, turd-ball is what I'll play.
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Signalman
December 13, 2009 12:22 PM in reply to Silence
"Tax free bonds and a tax free state. Mozy on up, little debtor, and pay me."
You clearly have me confused with someone else. The only debt I owe is on a house (and if you're buying CDO shares, you really *are* an idiot) and about $600 in credit card debt. Furthermore, the county in which I reside has one of the best credit ratings in the US and rarely issues bonds. We don't need to because we save wisely, we invest intelligently and we spend frugally. Once again, you've just made something up, hoping it will stick to me. Fail.
You're an ignorant liar. No wonder you're hanging out with the teabaggers. Birds of a feather *do* flock together, you know.
"I don't make the rules. I play the game. Would I prefer a decent, honorable, competitive game of 8 ball? Sure."
Most conservatives don't want anything to do with decency, honor or real competition any longer. It's a big part of the reason I'm not in the GOP any more. If you're proud of being indecent, dishonorable and anti-competitive, I see no reason to take anything you say at face value.
"Real competition is what gets me off."
Of course it doesn't. You've already admitted that you're just fine with being indecent, dishonorable and anti-competitive. Stop lying.
"I love eating the big dog's lunch."
Just like you enjoy it every time you beat Tiger Woods in nine holes, every time you fly your own 707 like John Travolta and every time you bang your wife, Elle MacPherson. You're such a transparent liar.
"However, when the only game in town is turd-ball, turd-ball is what I'll play."
Which begs the question of why you're here on TPM, bragging about your imaginary big, throbbing bank account in front of the proles. If you really *were* all that and a bag of chips, you wouldn't have time for this.
Once again, you're a dishonorable, transparent liar. And you still can't name the event of the 1920s I've been asking you about for nearly a day. That makes you ignorant and uninformed, too.
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Silence
December 13, 2009 12:33 PM in reply to Signalman
Libertarians don't need no stinkin' tissues.
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Signalman
December 13, 2009 12:44 PM in reply to Silence
Then whip out your purse and start swinging.
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Silence
December 13, 2009 12:40 PM in reply to Signalman
Best of luck to ya, debtor.
Better clean out that DC sty, real soon, before the pigs kick poo in your face.
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Signalman
December 13, 2009 12:46 PM in reply to Silence
"Best of luck to ya, debtor."
Just more serial fabulism from the king of lies. Truth and facts clearly don't matter much to you.
"Better clean out that DC sty, real soon, before the pigs kick poo in your face."
No need; you'll just end up eating any poo that gets kicked.
Just like you are right now.
Wipe your mouth, poop-eater.
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warbaby
December 13, 2009 11:17 AM
1994 was very different and it seems like nobody paid attention then and still hasn't got it.
There was a huge convergence on the parapolitical right (non-elective political actions outside the parties.) These included a surge in anti-abortion violence (murders and clinic attacks), an explosion in organizing by the so-called "Christian Patriots" (aka Militia Movement), an absolute paroxysm by the anti-environmentalist "Wise Use Movement" accompanied by county secession movements throughout the West, and a huge increase in activity by anti-gun control groups.
One indicator of the size of this movement was the militia organizing meetings that in some cases drew several thousand people to a single event. Ignored by the media and Democratic party operatives, but politically very significant.
The triggers were the FBI-created disaster at Waco, the passage of the Brady Bill, the link-up between white supremacists, anti-abortion terrorists and Posse Comitatus "common law / constitutionalist / tax resisters" and the passage at in several western states of environmental laws.
There was a huge right-wing backlash that started in 1993 and drew a large number of new voter registrations, nearly all of which were coming from people who previously had sat out elections as the non-voting extreme right. This was when the Republican "big tent" started gathering in some of the most extreme elements out on the fringe.
Most of this activity went under the radar and was not reported in the mainstream media. For instance, the militia organizing drive of 1993-1994 went completely unreported until late 1994 and then it was presented as mostly a joke. All this got rewritten after the Oklahoma City bombing, but the fact is the media did not report the surge in activity that peaked around August-September 1994. There were a series of attacks on the White House including a suicide plane crash, an armed attack by a fence jumper and a shooting incident with no suspect and no arrest.
This was strongly reflected in many local elections in 1993 going over to extreme right-wing candidates. In Washington State, House Majority leader Tom Foley was defeated by mostly soft-money anti-gun control groups.
Leaders of the far right, including Council for National Policy members were interviewed several times and flatly stated there was going to be a push from outside the Republican party.
All of this was ignored and continues to be disregarded as a factor in the 1994 elections. The fact is there was a huge convergence on the far right; it mobilized a large number of people who would not have voted otherwise and the widespread violence and agitation depressed Democratic turnouts. It was under the radar, but that only means they were able to make great gains without significant opposition.
I don't see the same sort of things happening now (at least not to that extent, though the extremist base is definitely upset), but the "structural" argument being put forward (lots of open seats) doesn't explain why the 1994 election swung so far to the right.
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patmcgrowen
December 13, 2009 12:05 PM
Another major difference apparently too many people are forgetting, is that Republicans had full control of the government for a better part of the decade. In that time they managed to run the country off a cliff. We are in this economic debacle today because of Republican policies. This is exactly what deregulation and tax cuts for the wealthy gets you. The state our country is currently in is a direct result of Republican policy.
Here is how the DCCC needs to begin to paint the 2010 picture. This country has seen a "lost decade". The median income increased 14% under Clinton and decreased 4.2% after eight years of Republican rule. The national debt DOUBLED with Republican policies. Poverty increased by 20% and the uninsured increased by 20%. Let's not forget they gave us the The Great Recession of 2007 while telling us that it was just a "mental recession" and balking at anyone who suggested otherwise. Republicans are clueless on domestic and foreign policy. They have absolutely nothing to offer the average citizen. They continue to be the enablers of the greedy and wealthy. So if you liked the last decade so much then go ahead and give the country back to them.
Note: it wasn't just Bush who destroyed the country it was all of his rubber stamp party members that created the legislation he signed. So lets shift the blame Bush meme to blame Republicans. Voters should ask themselves "can we trust republicans to do what's best for our country?" their track record proves the answer to be a resounding NO.
I feel this is a good counter-attack and let's remind people that if you're not having strong pro-dem feelings, just make sure we remain anti-republican. Republicans have done NOTHING to prove they are capable of helping middle America, so their place should be in the minority. Voters need to send them the strong message of "Just get out of the way!"
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Silence
December 13, 2009 12:18 PM in reply to patmcgrowen
Still going with the ole' blame the republicans strategy? It won't work. It makes your party look weak and pathetic.
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Signalman
December 13, 2009 12:24 PM in reply to Silence
Truth hurts. Need a tissue to dab your eyes, or would you rather just hit someone with your purse?
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patmcgrowen
December 13, 2009 3:58 PM in reply to Silence
What the Republicans did with their decade of power is undeniable. There is history to prove how dangerously incompetent Republican power is. I must not have been zapped with bright light from Men in Black to erase my memory like you have. When the Republican party pays back the $5 trillion they have stolen from the American people, I may begin to listen to what they have to say. Until then, they are all just con-men.
It's funny you call it the ole' blame the republicans strategy, when that is the only strategy repubs have against Obama. Blame everything on Obama. They have ODS: Obama-derangement-syndrome.
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Decodenny
December 13, 2009 12:18 PM
2010 is going to make 1994 look like a walk in the park for the Democrats. When my next door neighbor, who is about as politically inclined as an apple tree says to me, "Did you see what the Democrats are trying to do to our health insurance?" Then Armageddon is truly on the horizon.
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G3
December 13, 2009 12:43 PM
It starts for me with restoring integrity to our financial system. Justice for what amounts to Biblical Fraud. No guillotines, just Clawback.
From this perspective, 2006 and 2008 might just have well been 1994. No progressive movement on a single substantial issue whatsoever. Most important of these, Wall Street.
There they stood, CEOs with pants at their respective ankles, ripe to be sanctioned by a surging Democratic Majority working at long last to fulfill its historical mission to protect the Working and Middle Class against the predatory and cheating ways of Big Business.
But instead of Sanction we got Surrender. A once in a generation moment to restore faith in goverment as a partner and protector of hard work is lost. A chance to bury Reaganism and its unbalanced reliance of deregulation is ignored.
Worse still, non-progressive corporate policies are labeled as Socialism, Nazism, and Communism by rabid, anti-lectual Randians who make GWB look like Fidel Castro. The DLC is now the new Left. Progressives aren't even on the spectrum anymore.
So, what does it matter to me if Chris Dodd loses to a Republican? Shouldn't I just take my Corporatism pure and without the "base alloy of hypocrisy"?
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In Palin We Trust
December 13, 2009 3:37 PM
Uncovered: Soros Using His Ill-Gotten Gains to Tilt the 2012 Election
http://inpalinwetrust.wordpress.com/2009/12/13/soros-tilting-2012-election/
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MyMy
December 13, 2009 6:10 PM
I'm not sure that 'back to the Republicans' is ANY answer to corporate domination of government. What is needed is to take the Democratic seats away from conservadems in the primaries.
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pd
December 13, 2009 6:35 PM
If we could corner the men's hairspray market, these guys would be out of business. For good measure we might also want to corner the fluorescent tie market too - with no hairspray and no shiny loud ties, they would not come out in public anymore. Problem solved.
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Hidden Oak
December 18, 2009 11:42 AM
Oh yeah, let's get right back in the car with the driver's who put us in the ditch.
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jsdc007
December 18, 2009 12:05 PM
Today's GOP is not the party of Bush. It's the party of Limbaugh, Beck, DeMint, Kyl and Brownback, far, far worse than the party of Bush ever was. If the Dems think that bringing up Bush in 2010 is going to bring them votes, they're nuts. They need to show that the GOP is nothing more than a party of power-greedy wingnuts who have no interest in governing, and who have voted TWICE against funding for the military just because they didn't want healthcare or a hate crimes bill to pass. But in the end, its the economy, stupid. If the economy improves, healthcare is passed (and marketed by the Dems in their districts), the GOP is toast. If not, chanting Bush 1000 times won't cut it.
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