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Barney Frank: 'If Scott Brown Wins, It'll Kill The Health Bill'
MA Senate candidate Scott Brown (R) and Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA)
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Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA) made a very blunt statement to reporters today, about just how serious the stakes are in the Massachusetts special Senate election between Democrat Martha Coakley and Republican Scott Brown.
Said Frank: "If Scott Brown wins, it'll kill the health bill."
If Brown is elected, he would be the 41st member of the Republican caucus, giving the minority party the power to block even a unanimous Democratic caucus of 59 members. Since no Republicans are working with the Obama administration on health care, that would shut down the process altogether.
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Walter Mitty
January 15, 2010 4:46 PM
Considering some wingnut progressives want to kill the bill, I think Frank is helping Scott Brown with these remarks. What he should say is "Brown winning means the Senate bill will have to be passed as written".
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FreeRider
January 15, 2010 4:59 PM in reply to Walter Mitty
This will make a lot of posters here very happy! I'm sure Jane Hamsher, Howard Dean, Ed Schultz and Ariana Huffington are jumping for joy because we can kill the bill and start all over again!!
The "starting over" will have to wait another 10-15 years but a public option that covers 6 million people and costs more than private insurance is worth it! Hooray!!
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KQuark
January 15, 2010 5:30 PM in reply to FreeRider
I love the hypocrisy of these idiots that say "where's the change?" And then when the biggest change comes along in decades they fight against it because it's not enough change. Well I hate to tell the late drinking progressive elitists that millions of working and middle class Americans will be helped with healthcare reform and don't care if it's not perfect as long as it improves their lives.
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wbgonne
January 15, 2010 5:32 PM in reply to KQuark
You and your ilk are the problem. Not those of us who will stand and fight for something.
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FreeRider
January 15, 2010 5:44 PM in reply to wbgonne
You stand and fight until you don't get everything you want and then you sit your fat, lazy ass at home and whine instead of voting.
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AhTrini1
January 15, 2010 7:07 PM in reply to wbgonne
You will pick (in our case fight for) and pick until you pick shyt.
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Buckeye Terrorist Fist Jab Nation
January 15, 2010 5:34 PM in reply to KQuark
You mean your ilk who stand and fight for something that will never happen because you need a perfect bill or nothing?
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wbgonne
January 15, 2010 5:43 PM in reply to Buckeye Terrorist Fist Jab Nation
You're goddamn right. The President gets out there and persuades and motivates people because THAT is how you move popular opinion. If you fail you try again. But you stand for something. And you wait, if you must, for the public to be convinced. You DON'T try to slip reform by hoping nobody will notice.
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DA in LA
January 15, 2010 6:15 PM in reply to KQuark
I'm amused. You guys were taunting us and making fun of us just a month ago because we were so upset about the Health Care bill and the many other examples of poor leadership.
Now you're angry.
Bummer.
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notthatstupid
January 15, 2010 7:04 PM in reply to DA in LA
See how funny this is when you get nothing you've wanted. See how funny it is when the progressive and liberal people like me don't support any of the other progressive and liberal causes because you allowed our agenda to be torched before it got started and the racist teabaggers to win. It will send a clear signal, and I don't think it's the one you are counting on either.
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DA in LA
January 15, 2010 10:14 PM in reply to notthatstupid
Yeah. Bummer.
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bluebell
January 15, 2010 7:22 PM in reply to KQuark
If you can't explain to them how it will improve their lives, don't blame me. I can't explain it either.
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bluebell
January 15, 2010 5:47 PM in reply to FreeRider
And me! Maybe if Democrats stood for something people wouldn't have such a hard time figuring out why they should bother to vote for them.
But carry on, back to taxing my health benefits...
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FreeRider
January 15, 2010 5:50 PM in reply to bluebell
And you go back to campaigning for Scott Brown so he can kill this bill and everything else on the Democratic agenda.
This is the happiest I've seen you Bluebell! Cheers!
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bluebell
January 15, 2010 5:52 PM in reply to FreeRider
Well, at least I liked his centerfold. That's more than I can say about Ben Nelson and Max Baucus.
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wbgonne
January 15, 2010 5:54 PM in reply to bluebell
Those guys were centerfolds, too? Yecch.
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FreeRider
January 15, 2010 6:00 PM in reply to bluebell
Supporting a guy because he looked good in a centerfold 25 years ago. Kinda like how you (an avowed liberal) wanted to vote for Sully (a conservative Republican) because landed a plane.
You're a silly little girl who doesn't have a clue about governing or legislating. You still believe in white knights on white horses. The fact that morons like you can vote is the best argument for dictatorship.
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wbgonne
January 15, 2010 6:04 PM in reply to FreeRider
Did you clear those comments with Rahm? I think you may have crossed the line there, Bubba.
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bluebell
January 15, 2010 6:09 PM in reply to FreeRider
Considering that you seem to be one of the chief adherents around here of a cult of personality I'd think you'd appreciate my evaluation of the candidate.
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FreeRider
January 15, 2010 6:21 PM in reply to bluebell
You caucused for Obama. You voted for Obama. But you stop liking Obama as soon as he was sworn in because he didn't show up at your door with a glass slipper and fix the economy in a week.
The mark of someone who is only interested in the package and loses interest once the hard work starts. Somebody should have told you that fairy tales are just that -- tales.
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notthatstupid
January 15, 2010 7:00 PM in reply to FreeRider
I'm with you. The president is not a magician, and these American Idol worshipers have been like screaming little children...I won't support you until I get my way..I won't, I won't, I won't!!!
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DA in LA
January 15, 2010 8:05 PM in reply to notthatstupid
Or, I won't support you until I get something important I want. Just one thing.
But, I do like the argument you've made. In a Democracy, you should support someone you who doesn't represent you.
Impressive.
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JorgeOrwell
January 15, 2010 5:02 PM in reply to Walter Mitty
By "wingnut", do you mean Liberals?
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3star2nr
January 15, 2010 7:16 PM in reply to Walter Mitty
Wingnut progressive? Are you a freaking idiot?
How is supporting the public option something that more than 60% of the population supports, and being against being forced to buy health insurance from private corporations with NO cost controls a wing nut stance to take?
This bill is a train wreck and they need to kill it
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JorgeOrwell
January 15, 2010 8:17 PM in reply to 3star2nr
Old Walter represents exactly what is wrong with the Democrap party. They have Republican envy. Always trying to out conservative the "conservatives".
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JorgeOrwell
January 15, 2010 8:09 PM in reply to Walter Mitty
By "wingnuts", did you mean Liberals?
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cah89
January 15, 2010 4:55 PM
If Scott Brown does win, then the Senate Democrats should force the Republicans to make good on their filibuster threats. They've taken weeks to get this far anyway, so let's see who has more endurance.
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ericf
January 15, 2010 5:00 PM in reply to cah89
Not the health care bill. There are loads of other bills for them to filibuster. The Democrats should pick something undeniably popular. Make the Republicans filibuster something called a "jobs" bill, if they dare.
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gizmo
January 15, 2010 4:59 PM
I still think there is a silver lining in a Brown win. It will make it crystal clear to Obama and Reid that their entire legislative agenda is at risk, and force them to start governing like they are actually in the majority.
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FreeRider
January 15, 2010 5:10 PM in reply to gizmo
It will also make crystal clear to the left wing nutjobs that there's more to life than the public option as they watch any chance of passing anything they want will disappear.
I guess that's OK since there's no difference between the Dems and Republicans.
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DA in LA
January 15, 2010 5:13 PM in reply to FreeRider
No, there's a difference.
It's just not large enough for us to care anymore.
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FreeRider
January 15, 2010 5:21 PM in reply to DA in LA
That's what they said about Bush and Gore. That proved to be sooooo right, didn't it.
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DA in LA
January 15, 2010 6:14 PM in reply to FreeRider
Bummer. I guess Dems shouldn't have made the exact same mistakes they did in 1997-1999.
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bluebell
January 15, 2010 6:21 PM in reply to FreeRider
The would be the same Gore who believed putting Joe Lieberman a heart beat away would motivate the base?
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FreeRider
January 15, 2010 6:24 PM in reply to bluebell
That's the same Gore you spent the last 8 years praising and bemoaning that he didn't become president.
Of course, had he become president, you would have hated him to. Because he would have had to govern and not fly around sprinkling fairy dust on your wee head.
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DA in LA
January 15, 2010 6:26 PM in reply to FreeRider
I actually think Gore would have been a good leader. Obama has no idea how to lead. He's a coward and a corporate whore. His campaign promises/lies and his health care bill are certain to make him on one termer.
Suck it up, big boy. We picked a loser.
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FreeRider
January 15, 2010 6:28 PM in reply to DA in LA
Of course you think that . . . Because Gore lost. If he had won, you would have turned on him in the first six months, too.
Suck on it big boy! Obama is president and he doesn't need turds like you.
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DA in LA
January 15, 2010 6:36 PM in reply to FreeRider
Keep believing what you need to in order to keep your head in the sand.
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bluebell
January 15, 2010 6:41 PM in reply to FreeRider
Gore would have won if he hadn't bought the center-right campaign strategy. If the Republicans win in MA, it will be the same brain dead thinking that loses that seat for them. You have to get your voters to the polls first. You can worry about the other guy's base after you've motivated your own.
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MASON
January 17, 2010 7:33 PM in reply to DA in LA
As far as I can tell, there's no difference between the liberals and conservatives.
Both stand in the way of progress.
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Just me again
January 15, 2010 5:14 PM in reply to FreeRider
well said
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bluebell
January 15, 2010 5:51 PM in reply to FreeRider
Remind me what the party has done that I want?
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FreeRider
January 15, 2010 5:55 PM in reply to bluebell
You used to want funding for stem cell research--until the Dems made that possible.
You used to want torture outlawed--until the President did it.
You used to want SCHIP expanded--until the president signed the bill.
Once you got them, they suddenly became worthless. That's how it is with you assholes who only want something when you believe you can't have it.
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DA in LA
January 15, 2010 6:17 PM in reply to FreeRider
So angry.
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FreeRider
January 15, 2010 6:25 PM in reply to DA in LA
So worthless.
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notthatstupid
January 15, 2010 6:56 PM in reply to gizmo
They won't have a majority then. Damn it I wish people would know what the hell they are talking about. Brown would be the 41st vote, and nothing will get done because it is an election year. Stupid ass wingers don't even realize how that will hurt them. But if it does happen, I hope Obama opens up the Justice Department on the Bush criminals and a can of whup ass on them. We won't get healthcare, jobs or anything else...but their sorry asses will be before the bar of justice!
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barbara63
January 15, 2010 5:08 PM
Couldn't the House pass the bill as is and then make changes to it in the next month or so? Perhaps attach them to a basket of middle class tax cuts that the Republicans would have a hard time filibustering.
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Maritza
January 15, 2010 5:12 PM in reply to barbara63
They could just pass the Senate bill and then can make changes via reconciliation with 2011 budget.
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ilovebacon
January 15, 2010 5:09 PM
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/1/15/825522/-MA-Sen:-Why-did-Scott-Brown-vote-against-aid-to-9-11-recovery-workers
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Maritza
January 15, 2010 5:10 PM
Actually Brown can't just come to the Senate ready to be sworn in the next day if he wins. The MA law is such that an election can't be certifide until 10 days after an election while waiting all the absentee ballots. And then it will take another 5 days to certify the election. Then the State Secretary will give the paper to the U.S. Senate after the Governor signs it and then the winner can be sworn in.
It will take a couple of weeks to be sworn in actually.
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barbara63
January 15, 2010 5:12 PM in reply to Maritza
You make a very good point.
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navamske
January 15, 2010 5:32 PM in reply to Maritza
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FreeRider
January 15, 2010 5:51 PM in reply to navamske
Who gives a shit what the teabaggers believe????!!!!
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navamske
January 15, 2010 6:34 PM in reply to FreeRider
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FreeRider
January 15, 2010 7:02 PM in reply to navamske
>>And you know the tea-baggers will believe every word of it.>>
Why would what the teabaggers believe even factor into your thinking? The day the Democrats start planning strategy based on how the teabaggers will react is the day we should fold our tent.
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cjop
January 16, 2010 2:05 PM in reply to FreeRider
I've read your rants and I really think you are getting more childish as they progress. However one of your statements struck me as being completely asinine or your memory has been shortened by your all out effort to defend the Democrats. "The day the Democrats start planning strategy based on how the teabaggers will react is the day we should fold our tent." Are you kidding me? Where have you been for the last 8 years under Bush and early "debates" of HCR? The Democrats have been buckling under pressure from the Republicans (teabaggers) for at least the last 9 years. Think about it and then call me something real grownup like f@#kwad or whatever. Otherwise you should "fold your tent" now.
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FreeRider
January 16, 2010 3:24 PM in reply to cjop
Boring.
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agio
January 15, 2010 7:22 PM in reply to Maritza
Plus if this is anywhere close, you can expect litigation.
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Indie Pro
January 15, 2010 5:12 PM
What is amazing is the democratic party seems to be peddling little more than fear as a means to winning the election.
Must they ape GOP conservatives at everything?
Is there no positive message besides attack ads and fear?
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DA in LA
January 15, 2010 5:15 PM in reply to Indie Pro
That's all anyone is peddling.
"Do you want Republicans back in charge" isn't really working on people like me anymore after watching the Democratic Congress and Pres at work.
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FreeRider
January 15, 2010 5:23 PM in reply to DA in LA
Good. The door is that way ----------> Don't let it hit you on the way out.
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wbgonne
January 15, 2010 5:29 PM in reply to FreeRider
You are quite the Democratic vote-getter, huh? Obama is lucky to have you on his side (or up his ass).
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Indie Pro
January 15, 2010 5:46 PM in reply to wbgonne
he's my favorite voice of the current democratic leadership. He knows how to win votes and inspire particapation.
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wbgonne
January 15, 2010 5:48 PM in reply to Indie Pro
Yes, I wonder if that Whale is Rahm's sock puppet.
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FreeRider
January 15, 2010 5:48 PM in reply to wbgonne
Yes. He sure is. I don't faint and abandon everything that matters at the first sign of trouble. I don't forget what 8 years under Bush was like because this president doesn't give me a pony.
See, I'm not a whining crybaby and disloyal pussy like you.
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wbgonne
January 15, 2010 5:51 PM in reply to FreeRider
And I bet he sure appreciates you attacking his political base and driving away his voters. You're doing a bang-up job. Ask for a raise.
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FreeRider
January 15, 2010 6:03 PM in reply to wbgonne
YOU are NOT his base! You abandoned him a long time ago and it had nothing to do with anything you saw posted on a blog. The president will survive without cornholers like you. So fuck off and go help Scott Brown kill the bill!!
The thought of ever being on the same side of anything with limp dicks like you makes me puke!
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wbgonne
January 15, 2010 6:06 PM in reply to FreeRider
Do you live in a cabin in the woods? Sooo-weeeeee!
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FreeRider
January 15, 2010 6:27 PM in reply to wbgonne
Why? You wanna come out for a poke? Sorry. You're not my type. I prefer the Walking Upright variety.
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wbgonne
January 15, 2010 6:33 PM in reply to FreeRider
Yuk. You are foul. Please go away.
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FreeRider
January 15, 2010 7:04 PM in reply to wbgonne
Make me.
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DA in LA
January 15, 2010 6:20 PM in reply to FreeRider
Thanks. I'm not anyone important. I flew from California to Vegas three times during the last election to walk precincts for Obama. I gave him the maximum. I drove Dems who have a hard time getting out to the polls.
Nope, not important.
No worries. I took myself off the Obama list.
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FreeRider
January 15, 2010 6:31 PM in reply to DA in LA
You're right. You're nobody important. *IF* you did what you claimed, then you were just one of a million. Big deal.
Right now, you're a nobody loser and I'm thrilled to know I won't be on the same side of anything with a pussy like you. Take a few more with you when you leave.
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DA in LA
January 15, 2010 6:38 PM in reply to FreeRider
You are hilarious. I can't stop laughing at how completely angry you are.
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FreeRider
January 15, 2010 7:06 PM in reply to DA in LA
OK. Now if you will please get your laughing ass outta here.
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ilovebacon
January 15, 2010 5:16 PM in reply to Indie Pro
yeah, repubs never used fear to win elections.
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Indie Pro
January 15, 2010 5:18 PM in reply to ilovebacon
Must they ape GOP conservatives at everything?
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ilovebacon
January 15, 2010 5:21 PM in reply to Indie Pro
only the parts that work.
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Viva!America!
January 15, 2010 5:24 PM in reply to Indie Pro
and when they don't, they are called spineless by their own "supporters".
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FreeRider
January 15, 2010 5:26 PM in reply to Viva!America!
The same turds who complain that Democrats act like Republicans complain because Democrats aren't enough like Republicans.
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bluebell
January 15, 2010 6:00 PM in reply to FreeRider
As far as I can tell, the main difference between Republicans and Democrats these days is that Republicans can tell you what they are for, e.g., lower taxes. Democrats have spent a year on healthcare and can't explain the bill to the American people. Fortunately for the Republicans, they will explain that it raises taxes on the middleclass.
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FreeRider
January 15, 2010 6:06 PM in reply to bluebell
As far as you can tell, the Easter Bunny brings you flowers every Saturday morning.
Have you left the Democratic party yet? You promised to do that a year ago. The sooner the better. You're stinking up the joint.
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cjop
January 17, 2010 5:34 PM in reply to bluebell
Yup. At least the republicans will look you in the face while screwing you. The Dems prefer turning you over so they don't have to.
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Just me again
January 15, 2010 5:21 PM in reply to Indie Pro
we're all Republicans now
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wbgonne
January 15, 2010 5:28 PM in reply to Just me again
Sad but true.
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Viva!America!
January 15, 2010 5:23 PM in reply to Indie Pro
There's a bit of a difference between the GOP telling its supporters that America is being ruined by Obama's radical leftist agenda and the Dems saying HCR will die. And Progressives are not above using fear.
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Tanjaoui
January 15, 2010 5:15 PM
Barney Frank: 'If Scott Brown Wins, It'll Kill The Health Bill'...so what's the downside?
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Just me again
January 16, 2010 11:18 AM in reply to Tanjaoui
I think barney is trying to motivate us to vote for Brown.
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Sailormarlowe
January 15, 2010 5:17 PM
Does Barney Frank deserve that face?
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Alexander
January 15, 2010 5:17 PM
Plan B? Here's the democrat's plan B (C and D). This bill is going to be passed hell or high water. Obama will pass it, have no doubt.
Plan B: Pass the current bill through the house verbatim. Make tax amendments for unions through senate reconciliation later on.
Plan C: Use the nuclear option to get rid of the filibuster altogether and pass healthcare reform (and take Ben Nelson's outrageous grabs for Nevada out...and maybe actually get to some insurance reform).
Plan D: Pass the renegotiated bill through the senate as is without CBO scoring. If the CBO doesn't score it well, return to plan B.
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Maritza
January 15, 2010 5:27 PM in reply to Alexander
Those are all great plans.
I think that Barney Frank who is from MA said what he said to make it clear to Democrats in his home state at what is at state here.
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barbara63
January 15, 2010 6:05 PM in reply to Alexander
Great ideas, Alexander.
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ilovebacon
January 15, 2010 5:19 PM
If Dems had put in half this effort in NJ, Corzine would have won.
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FreeRider
January 15, 2010 5:25 PM in reply to ilovebacon
Not true. Corzine was very unpopular. He was the problem in NJ. Turnout is the problem in MA.
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wbgonne
January 15, 2010 5:27 PM in reply to FreeRider
Everything is the problem except Obama and the DLC-Dems who are running the country.
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Viva!America!
January 15, 2010 5:27 PM in reply to ilovebacon
eh, I don't think so. NJ was pretty unhappy.
I can't wait to see what Christie pulls out of his _______ to fix the state.
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wbgonne
January 15, 2010 5:25 PM
The fact that Coakley isn't saying this tells you just how crappy the bill is. Health care reform that isn't even popular in MA. That is incredible. Incredible.
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Tanjaoui
January 15, 2010 5:40 PM in reply to wbgonne
Yes, well they're experiencing a (comparatively) benign form of this particular regulatory capture and it isn't keeping prices down. I believe there is a provision in this bill which would actually make it possible for insurers to circumvent MA State insurance regs by setting up shop someplace like Alabama, where there's very little consumer protection, and offer 'national' plans in MA. I could be wrong about that...it's hard to imagine Kerry getting behind this bill if that's the case. But I do remember reading that that was part of this bill in one of its iterations. Maybe they removed it. If it's still there, it might explain Coakley's unwillingness to make that a talking point.
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wbgonne
January 15, 2010 5:46 PM in reply to Tanjaoui
It might. Except that Obama and the Dems have spent ONE ENTIRE YEAR working on HCR. Yet they can't even get mileage is MA? That is epic failure.
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Tanjaoui
January 15, 2010 7:18 PM in reply to wbgonne
Agreed. It's more Clintonian stupidity. Eventually someone bright is going to figure out people want results, not more of the same of what they've been getting since Reagan. I predict the unemployment rate is going nowhere. We're in for long-term, 10% unemployment as a norm, due, in part, to NAFTA - another great Clinton/Rubin idea. People will start thinking in more populist terms about what they need to survive without a job (such as health care).
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RDT
January 15, 2010 5:33 PM
The trouble is, HCR won't make much difference for MA. If it passes its fairly similar to what they have now, and it the elect Brown and it doesn't, they'll still have it.
It's a little bit like the over-65 crowd and Medicare...
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SolonBiker
January 15, 2010 6:17 PM
I'm so depressed about this entire sad affair. I could really use some of the subsidy assistance that this bill would include. Early on, I sent emails out to all the concerned parties at the White House and Senator Brown of Ohio telling them it had to be public option or nothing. And then I thought the Medicare buy in would be the be all and end all. A chance to get out of the worst decade of insurance expenses, or at least to get a more fair value where you might actually be able to afford to see a doctor or have an x-ray after you're done choking on the insurance premiums. And then I ran the Kaiser program that showed the subsidy levels, and what a big help that would be in the out years when you're too young for Medicare but too old for affordable insurance. I really don't know why these numbers weren't advertised more broadly. Were the politicians afraid that it would turn off those who were above those income levels, or were they just tone deaf about the very real burden the insurance premiums are for those on their own. If this thing all falls apart because of the MA Senate race, this has got to go down as one of the most epic fails in the history of politics. And it's going to hurt and wipe out so many people who deserved better.
When are we ever going to see Democrats play hardball and be willing to run thru any wall to get something like this done for the people of this country. And if it all falls apart now, how many decades do we have to wait for the next try?
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DA in LA
January 15, 2010 6:23 PM in reply to SolonBiker
You're problem is that you believe they want the public option. The majority in the Senate don't. The president doesn't.
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willia451
January 15, 2010 6:33 PM
What Frank said is simply not true.
The Senate passed a bill. If Brown wins, then the House would just swallow the Senate Bill whole. Then the Senate would not have to vote again.
It would then go to President Obama's desk to sign.
Now, if what he is saying is, without changes, the Senate Bill can never pass the House, then THAT is another matter.
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DA in LA
January 15, 2010 6:39 PM in reply to willia451
I've believe Barney is saying the latter. He's not exactly an idiot.
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willia451
January 15, 2010 6:46 PM in reply to DA in LA
I can't speak to whether or not Frank is an idiot.
But, I think it is important that we all be clear at this point.
ALL of us.
Say what you mean. And your meaning needs to be true.
NOT doing that, is what has gotten us where we are.
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notthatstupid
January 15, 2010 6:52 PM
If this winger/teabagger wins, screw Hamsher, Huffington, Schultz and all of these other narrow minded idiots that brought us to this point. How shameful and short sided to think that they are teaching the president and the elected Democrats a lesson. How selfish to deny so many people who will benefit from this plan and put them at risk. They ruin this presidency at their peril...I know too many people who have suffered and keep suffering under the republican criminality. We take this step back now, and we won't move forward for a very long time. People will be devastated and I guarantee that people of color will feel that you didn't give him a chance, and see how the progressive agenda moves forward then.
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AhTrini1
January 15, 2010 7:08 PM in reply to notthatstupid
Here, here!
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SolonBiker
January 15, 2010 7:16 PM in reply to notthatstupid
If the winger/teabagger wins, I'd prefer to screw the Democrats who want to run away and hide instead of pursuing the still-available measures to get some form of this passed. There will be an immediate cry to retreat, and run, led by the ConservaDems. If you can't hold MA, you can't hold my district in NC or OH or KY. I think President Obama will have his biggest leadership test at that point, and must not allow them to slither into the background. Force the issue, force either a vote of the Senate bill or reconciliation of the best elements of the compromise bill, and make them oppose it out in public with the clear message that the party will be out for their, um, seats, from here.
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bluebell
January 15, 2010 7:34 PM in reply to notthatstupid
If Ed and Jane can cost Democrats Teddy's seat then maybe that guy in the White House ought to spend a little more time on fireside chats. I don't know what's going on in the race but it sounds like Coakley is coming off as just the kind of disconnected, wonky, above it all, Democrat that has driven so many of us to despair for the party. People are angry. Even FreeRider is angry even if he's only angry at the people who are angry. People want someone who can feel their pain. At least Bill Clinton could fake that.
Meanwhile, back to taxing middle class health benefits...
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willia451
January 15, 2010 7:48 PM in reply to notthatstupid
What is your argument?
That free speech is wrong? That everyone should support the President no matter what?
That's what we all hated about Bush.
Let's be clear. If you do not support a Democratic or Republican initiative, then that is what it is.
If you do support it, then that is what it is as well.
But to suggest, that we can't be free to support or not support proposed government policies, regardless, is just wrong.
You KNOW that.
Get a grip.
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DA in LA
January 15, 2010 8:09 PM in reply to notthatstupid
Yeah, um, many of us don't think we're teaching Democrats a lesson. We're just not going to support them because they don't represent what we believe in.
It's not rocket science. It's democracy. And you're getting angry at people for not voting against the interests.
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JohnMcCSF
January 15, 2010 9:03 PM in reply to DA in LA
No I just wonder why anyone should give a rat's ass what people like you think????
You couldn't elect a dog catcher, why should we care?
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DA in LA
January 15, 2010 9:16 PM in reply to JohnMcCSF
Weird. Because I flew from California 3 times to walk precincts for Obama. I have the maximum and I drove older Dems to the polls all day on election day.
I'm exaclty the kind of guy you don't want to lose.
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JohnMcCSF
January 15, 2010 9:48 PM in reply to DA in LA
Well I guess you taught ME a lesson.
Its not rocket science its simple physics
Don't let the door hit you on the way out because are exactly the kind of butts we don't need to kiss
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DA in LA
January 15, 2010 10:16 PM in reply to JohnMcCSF
Uh huh. But you'll be screaming like a baby at us when you lose.
Shame that.
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cjop
January 17, 2010 5:46 PM in reply to JohnMcCSF
Is that you FreeRider?
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Tom
January 15, 2010 9:58 PM
Do you really think that if Obama had the votes in the house and the senate we would even be talking about public option or any of this? He'd dump the insurance companies and sign a single payer plan. This isn't the health care bill the administration wants, but it's much better than we have now, and it's the best we can get.
Folks! He doesn't have the votes to get the bill we all want. How in hell do you expect him to sign a bill that doesn't have the votes? The guy's a good speaker but he's not a svengali. Deal with reality, please! This is for real! There are real people going bankrupt! There are real people who are dying from this crazy heartless system we have.
This bill is so much better than what we have now.
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DA in LA
January 15, 2010 10:18 PM in reply to Tom
He didn't lead, he didn't try, so we'll never know. But quite pretending like it's one bill, one act that has turned us. It was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
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Tom
January 15, 2010 10:50 PM in reply to DA in LA
He's not magic. You've got to pick your fights. The fights worth fighting are the ones you think you can win. Don Quixote type fights might make for good reading and can be inspiring, but this isn't a novel or a movie. This is the real thing.
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DA in LA
January 15, 2010 10:52 PM in reply to Tom
Oh, you're mistaking me for someone who's an idiot. I don't think he's magic and I actually comprehend politics.
I also don't think he knows how to lead.
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Tom
January 16, 2010 12:14 AM in reply to DA in LA
>>Oh, you're mistaking me for someone who's an idiot. I don't think he's magic and I actually comprehend politics.
Then please stop saying things that mislead me.
>>I also don't think he knows how to lead.
How could anyone possibly lead this particular group of senators and congressmen to a more progressive health care overhaul? He'd have to be able to do Jedi mind tricks.
Seriously, give me a realistic glimpse of the kind of leadership you are looking for. I honestly can't imagine what you are envisioning.
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DA in LA
January 16, 2010 3:58 PM in reply to Tom
He didn't lead on health care. In any way, shape or form.
The fact that you even have to ask for an example just shows you've got your head up the Democrats ass.
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Tom
January 16, 2010 4:55 PM in reply to DA in LA
> He didn't lead, he didn't try
> I also don't think he knows how to lead.
> He didn't lead on health care
You keep saying he didn't lead. I'm asking you for specifics on what you would have wanted him to do that would have even a tiny chance of changing the way this particular crop of members of congress would vote toward a more progressive form of reform that you AND I would have liked to have seen.
I'm not talking about grandstanding on principles with no chance of success which would likely just kill the whole thing.
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DA in LA
January 16, 2010 7:21 PM in reply to Tom
If you don't know what "lead" means, maybe you should bow out of this conversation.
I don't plan on explaining why the sun comes up to you, either.
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Tom
January 16, 2010 11:18 PM in reply to DA in LA
There are many many ways to lead--don't act like what you are talking about is patently obvious. I honestly can't imagine how any type of leading from Obama could have brought about a single payer system or a public option.
C'mon. Tell us what Obama could have done.
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DA in LA
January 17, 2010 2:30 AM in reply to Tom
It's been explained over and over on many blogs and message boards, so let's not pretend like you've never heard a thing.
Act like a grown up.
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Tom
January 17, 2010 11:19 AM in reply to DA in LA
I guess Obama was supposed to stare down the pharmaceutical industry, the health care industry, other parts of the current medical establishment, 1/3 (?) of the democratic house members and senators, the unions, etc and they would all blink.
His charisma would rally the people to force all these organizations to do the right thing and give up all their advantages. All this would happen despite the barrage of lies and distortions funded by these very wealthy and desperate organizations. Despite all this, the people would stick together and keep their eyes on the prize because of Obama's incredible leadership.
Doesn't seem likely to me.
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again
January 17, 2010 11:43 AM in reply to Tom
By leading, they think he should have regularly and coherently explained what the public option was, and how much support for it there was in the country. HR3200 itself is long and confusing. It needed the bully pulpit to survive.
The public option was the compromise position, but it would have introduced real competition for the insurance industry.
The problem is that Obama never wanted the public option. His "compromise" position was just a diversion.
The base wasted an enormous amount of time and energy supporting something that Obama never intended to support. And he made that clear by not communicating the message.
I was in San Francisco when he spoke to a $15,000 a plate fundraiser in the fall. In front of an extremely "progressive/liberal" (I think they should be called "believers in traditional Democratic values") audience that supported the PO and/or SP, he couldn't be moved to mention "public option" once.
The early deals with pharma/insurance didn't work. That's also not a good example of leadership.
Obama was handed a SIGNIFICANT mandate in 08. And he wasted it.
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Tom
January 17, 2010 2:01 PM in reply to again
Thanks for that specific list. I really appreciate it. Of course, I disagree, though. I think if it were possible, Obama would have wanted a single payer system. But that was clearly a non starter and talking about it would have poisoned the well from the state. I think he wanted a public option but realized this was not possible. Again, talking about it would have spoiled the debate, even though it left us on the left feeling out in the cold.
I think good leadership is knowing what to focus on and knowing when to fight and when to give.
He's a smart guy surrounded by smart people, and I suspect he is playing this perfectly given what he has to work with.
That's the piece I wish those on the left would keep in mind. There's what we want and there's what's realistic. Keep your idealism for motivation but work in the real world.
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again
January 17, 2010 2:43 PM in reply to Tom
(This was supposed to be in reply to Tom, but it was sent to the end of the posts instead.
Trying again to reply to Tom.)
"I think he wanted a public option but realized this was not possible."
In part, because he'd already cut deals with pharma and insurers.
"Again, talking about it would have spoiled the debate..."
Spoiled the debate? Tell it to FDR and Truman. You're not kidding anyone.
"I think good leadership is knowing what to focus on and knowing when to fight and when to give."
The guy has neither focused nor fought. Except to get into office.
"He's a smart guy surrounded by smart people, and I suspect he is playing this perfectly given what he has to work with."
Your suspicions don't amount to a hill of beans next to the evidence.
"That's the piece I wish those on the left would keep in mind. There's what we want and there's what's realistic. Keep your idealism for motivation but work in the real world."
i.e., continue to allow gross regulatory capture to proceed, because Obama is one of ours, a blue stater, not a red. No thanks.
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social nature
January 15, 2010 10:58 PM
If the Democrats lose Ted Kennedy's seat, it's their own sorry fault. It's not the evil machinations of the left, but the total failure of the Democrats to put together a real reform package.
The Democrats have big majorities in both houses and the presidency: they have no excuses.
You might be able to argue that this bill does some good things, but what it mostly does is hand over hundreds of billions of dollars to an entirely failed industry. In that sense it's like the massive Wall Street subvention that's been great for the rich few and terrible for everyone else.
Instead of lambasting critics from the left, Democrats should begin to pay attention to anger brewing across the political spectrum as the middle class is destroyed. You would think that even the prospect of losing Ted Kennedy's seat would be just that wake up call.
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Tom
January 16, 2010 12:16 AM in reply to social nature
Let's see...
"Status quo"
or
"Some good things"
"Status quo"
"Some good things"
Hmmm, I'll take "Some good things" for 1000, Alex.
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social nature
January 16, 2010 3:02 PM in reply to Tom
Hmmm, allow a completely failed system to linger on miserably or enact real reform?
Hmmm, that's a hard one Alex. Nah, just kidding, enact real reform.
Ahh sorry, that's the wrong answer for the type of Democrats currently in office.
See, they don't want to upset their corporate funding and they've never met a principle they couldn't run away from, so the real answer is pro-corporate legislation with some pathetic populist window dressing.
Damn Alex, I should have known.
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Evan Waters
January 16, 2010 4:09 PM in reply to social nature
And the chances of real reform getting done if this bill dies and the Republicans have at least 41 votes in the Senate?
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social nature
January 16, 2010 4:20 PM in reply to Evan Waters
Please, were the Democrats ever actually interested in real reform. Does anything in the record support the idea that they were?
Putting Max Baucus, Mr. Insurance Industry Sweetheart, in charge of the bill and they're interested in real reform?
You can't be serious.
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Tom
January 16, 2010 5:03 PM in reply to social nature
I have to say you just aren't dealing with reality. You have to work with the congress you have not the one you want. You either take what you can get or gather up your toys and go home. This is too serious to too many people--anyone who might get very sick--to go home and pout.
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social nature
January 16, 2010 5:39 PM in reply to Tom
The reality is that the White House made secret deals with Big Pharma. Closed door deals that screw consumers and patients alike. Do you know who Billy Tauzin is? Why is he even in the loop when it comes to national health care policy?
The reality is that Pres. Obama put bipartisanship, chimera of chimeras, before actual reform. Convenient that.
The reality is that the insurance industry owns enough of the party of write its own legislation.
The reality is that I'm a 28-year HIV survivor and I know more about how broken our insurance, drug, and medical industries are than a roomful of well-lobbied congresspeople. I know that I need real reform, not this massive subvention of a totally failed industry. The Senate bill is a sham, a farce, a disaster and still leaves millions uninsured while doing far too little to control costs. The House bill is somewhat better, especially in its funding mechanisms, but the WH begs to differ. Long story short, HCR has been a fiasco of epic proportions and the Dems have no one to blame but themselves.
Yours is the sort of post a person writes when they want something but can't really argue well for it on its own merits. You make idiotic claims about reality, pouting, and toys as if they meant something. You ignore the obvious fatal flaws of the legislation. Talk about not dealing with reality.
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Evan Waters
January 16, 2010 7:14 PM in reply to social nature
I need to be able to buy insurance, which I can't because of my pre-existing condition. This bill would, at the very least, you have to concede, outlaw that. The GOP have no plans to end this practice. I'll take "imperfect" over "go die", thank you.
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DA in LA
January 16, 2010 7:23 PM in reply to Evan Waters
"I'll take "imperfect" over "go die", thank you."
And there lies the problem
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social nature
January 16, 2010 10:09 PM in reply to Evan Waters
It'll outlaw exclusion, but won't necessarily provide affordable premiums. You may be required to pay from 2-4 times the standard premium. Then there's the matter of deductibles and co-pays.
Then there's drug and hospital costs, largely uncontrolled.
There's simply no way to have both a huge industry dedicated to making billions on health care and providing low-cost, high quality health care universally.
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again
January 17, 2010 11:48 AM in reply to Tom
As an uninsured American who worked long hours in urban emergency rooms, and who worked very hard supporting the public option, I disagree with you that this reform package, in its current state, constitutes anything but regulatory capture.
It is the opposite of reform, and THAT is why people are not supporting it.
Claiming that it IS reform is not going to change our minds.
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Tom
January 16, 2010 5:00 PM in reply to social nature
>> Hmmm, allow a completely failed system to linger on miserably or enact real reform?
Me: Wow! I'll take real reform, Alex!
Mr Trebek: I'm sorry, Real Reform is not on the board. You can either take "a failed system lingering on with bankruptcy when you get sick and insurance companies dropping people when they feel like it etc" or "a failed system lingering with controls on what these companies do and some safety net for millions of people." Those are your only options...and the melody is almost over....
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social nature
January 16, 2010 5:17 PM in reply to Tom
These are the choices and the Democrats wonder why they're about to lose in MA?
Or, to put it another way, the Democrats are running against the Party of No and managing to lose because HCR is so damn half-assed, pro-corporate, and has no real means of reining in costs.
Or, to put it another way, the Democrats are on the verge of losing Ted Kennedy's seat because they've produced baldly pro-corporate non-reform. Blaming the idiotic, corrupt Republicans or the angry, demoralized left might be convenient for some, but Democrats need to figure out what they stand for and who they represent.
Right now, they look like kinder, gentler corporate goons and that's going to lose them a lot more elections.
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again
January 17, 2010 11:52 AM in reply to Tom
That is hysterical. I didn't realize it was penned by Tom
Because it sounds like a sarcastic screed by someone who can't support the garbage that this HCR now looks to be.
But yes, given those choices, I don't think we should be surprised that the Democratic Party is flailing.
It's like saying, would you like to be raped, or raped and then allowed the opportunity to lightly smack your considerably larger opponent with a feather?
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Tom
January 18, 2010 3:22 PM in reply to again
I think it would be better characterized as stopping the rape while still having the mugging but with controls about how much they can take you for. It IS a real improvement, and if I will go with the improvement. If you reject the improvement, you are accepting the much worse status quo.
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robertearlove
January 16, 2010 3:16 PM
After the recent ARG poll today, we are just going to have to admit that we've lost this one. Brown will win.
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again
January 17, 2010 2:06 PM
"I think he wanted a public option but realized this was not possible."
In part, because he'd already cut deals with pharma and insurers.
"Again, talking about it would have spoiled the debate..."
Spoiled the debate? Tell it to FDR and Truman. You're not kidding anyone.
"I think good leadership is knowing what to focus on and knowing when to fight and when to give."
The guy has neither focused nor fought. Except to get into office.
"He's a smart guy surrounded by smart people, and I suspect he is playing this perfectly given what he has to work with."
Your suspicions don't amount to a hill of beans next to the evidence.
"That's the piece I wish those on the left would keep in mind. There's what we want and there's what's realistic. Keep your idealism for motivation but work in the real world."
i.e., continue to allow gross regulatory capture to proceed, because Obama is one of ours, a blue stater, not a red. No thanks.
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Tom
January 17, 2010 6:36 PM in reply to again
>>>"I think he wanted a public option but realized this was not possible."
>>In part, because he'd already cut deals with pharma and insurers.
Not sure I agree with this completely, but why do you think he cut deals with these industries? Because they felt this was the only way to get this through. See my previous response about the impossibility of staring down these large, powerful sectors.
>>>"I think good leadership is knowing what to focus on and knowing when to fight and when to give."
>>The guy has neither focused nor fought. Except to get into office.
He hasn't focused and fought?!!! One of the reasons he's freaking out the right is because he's done so much in such a short time. Just dealing with healthcare reform at all is focusing and fighting. I really don't know what you expect him to do.
>>>"That's the piece I wish those on the left would keep in mind. There's what we want and there's what's realistic. Keep your idealism for motivation but work in the real world."
>>i.e., continue to allow gross regulatory capture to proceed, because Obama is one of ours, a blue stater, not a red. No thanks.
To paraphrase Josh, you are "tending to your purity in a protected zone of utter irrelevance."
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again
January 18, 2010 12:15 AM in reply to Tom
This isn't a matter of purity - rather, a matter of fact:
The rate of regulatory capture has only accelerated during Obama's first year in the following industries:
1) military contractors
2) banks
3) insurers
4) pharma
That is not an irrelevant matter in the least.
What is irrelevant is insisting that Obama has fought when he hasn't. (The "he IS standing up!" defense.)
As Chico Marx put it, "Who are you going to believe - me or your own lying eyes?"
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Tom
January 18, 2010 3:25 PM in reply to again
When I said "irrelevance," I mean because you are insisting on idealistic perfection that you never can enact any change. Letting "the perfect be the enemy of the good."
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hologram5
January 18, 2010 9:29 AM
Barney Frank is a tool that should be in jail along with every other bastard that was involved with the financial meltdown. Geithner, the CEO of AIG, Bush, Cheney, ANYONE THAT WAS INVOLVED!
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