
Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN) headlined an event on Friday for the North Dakota Republican Party, and lambasted President Obama for what she saw as his historically terrible handling of the nation's finances. The only problem, however, was that her pronouncements didn't bear much resemblance to reality.
Bachmann argued that "there is no moral equivalency" between the admitted over-spending of the Bush administration compared to the Obama presidency. "Because if you look at the debt level accumulated under George W. Bush, 400 some-odd billion dollars, President Obama in his first year in office accumulated $1.4 trillion, over four times more than that big spending George Bush -- and that was after 911 and the recessions and all that he had to deal with and the two wars. Over four times," said Bachmann.
"As a matter of fact, President Obama spent so much money that if you took all the debt that we accumulated from George Washington, every president up until Barack Obama, President Obama accumulated more debt in eight months than all previous presidents combined. Combined. That gives you context for the times we're living in."
Simply put, none of this is true or even bears much of a resemblance to the facts. When watching this speech, I knew it could not be true, so I checked with Concord Coalition policy director Joshua Gordon.
"The first part, the $400 billion, I can only surmise she is comparing the final year of the Bush administration with the first year of the Obama administration, just the single year deficit, not the debt," said said Gordon, looking for an explanation.
The problem with that hypothesis was that Bachmann referred to Bush having to deal with 9/11, recessions and two wars, and compared this to just the first year of Obama's administration. This seemed to mean that Bachmann was referring to the sum total of the Bush years, and alleging that Bush only built up $400 billion in debt during his whole administration. "Then that's wrong," Gordon replied.
So what were the actual numbers? And did Obama really build up more debt than all previous presidents combined? "The debt numbers that we normally use are debt held by the public, so that doesn't count the Social Security trust fund," said Gordon. "So if you look at the end of the year, end of calendar year 2000, which is pretty close to the beginning of the Bush term, the debt held by the public was $3.4 trillion. And then by the end of the year 2008, the debt was $5.8 trillion. And then by the end of the year 2009, it was $7.5 trillion. Now that's calendar year 2009, so that pretty much encompasses the first year of the Obama administration."
So the levels of publicly-held debt increased by $2.4 trillion during the Bush years, six times as much as Bachmann alleged. During the Obama Administration, which has included a lot of spending on the stimulus, bailouts, and two foreign wars, and less revenue coming from a bad economy, the number has so far gone up by $1.7 trillion -- obviously less than all previous presidents combined.
In other topics, Bachmann thoroughly rejected the idea of a social guarantee of health care, saying that the rights guaranteed in America's founding ideals affirm "your right to own property, not necessarily the right or a guarantee to a specific item, to a specific service, like health care, or a to a specific piece of land. Rather, the underlying principle and the ideal is that if we choose, when we choose, we can choose to strive for as little or as much as we want, and once we acquire that property, nobody can take it away from us. That's a radical idea, that what I provide belongs to me, not to the king, but it belongs to me. "
Bachmann also attacked the Obama administration's latest budget and it's trillion-plus deficit: "Our government is intentionally choosing failure, they're choosing failure and they're handing you the budget. How do you like them apples, and how are you going to pay for it? You have to give up up more of your private property, your pursuit of happiness, to pay for their failure. That's what they're doing to us."
An overriding theme was that the Obama administration is taking away the freedom of the American people, and reducing them to a subject population. "And the president also wants to raise your taxes to about 40 percent this year. When your taxes are raised to 40 percent, that means government is laying claim to owning 40 percent of you, of what you earn," said Bachmann. "Think of it that way, because that isn't just it, the federal income tax, you need to add to that Social Security tax, Medicare tax, state tax, county tax, city tax, township tax, school tax, metro authority tax, sales tax, gas tax. Pretty soon Uncle Sam owns more of you than you do. Is that America? And that's government depriving you of your God-given right to the pursuit of happiness. That's not what the Founders thought, they thought that should you should work for you, and you should work for your family, they weren't about to condemn you to a life of indentured servitude. That's not the great hope that they had for you, because they thought you were free. They respect you, they saw you as free people. And they knew that you could figure out your own future, you didn't need to have them for that."
Viva!America!
February 15, 2010 2:41 PM
This bitch needs to lose her seat.
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GTFOOH
February 15, 2010 3:23 PM in reply to Viva!America!
She's already lost her mind!
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lousgirl84
February 16, 2010 3:42 PM in reply to Viva!America!
I could not agree more. I would love to meet her outside in an alley. She'd wish she was never born.
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Marinus van der Lubbe
February 16, 2010 5:10 PM in reply to lousgirl84
LOL.....I need that (aim.com) laugh.....last laugh is best.
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lousgirl84
February 16, 2010 5:37 PM in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe
Okay something is wrong. All four clues together were rejected (what is aim.com).
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Marinus van der Lubbe
February 16, 2010 6:18 PM in reply to lousgirl84
first clue heredog54@aim.com
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AhTrini1
February 16, 2010 9:41 PM in reply to Viva!America!
The dumb bitches in MN will vote her back in, so save your energy.
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chimpale
February 15, 2010 2:50 PM
Lie much, Michelle?
Oh wait, I guess it's not lying if you're too stupid to know what you're saying. My bad.
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Michael A
February 15, 2010 2:56 PM
Problem is nobody calls her on the lies. Nobody. Not one media outlet has a huge story about every lie she spews. If nobody calls her on it, and just repeats the lie as gospel, she has zero incentive to stop lying. Same with all the repukes, they just lie constantly and never get called on it.
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mcrose68
February 15, 2010 5:29 PM in reply to Michael A
The problem is that people back her on her lies. Because it feeds their own narrative of them being victims.
Meanwhile, they're busy looting as fast as they can.
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davewtf
February 15, 2010 7:53 PM in reply to Michael A
And then the dumbasses that attend these events start spewing this filth as truth and tell others. This is why I prefer the British media. When they hear bullshit, they call politicians on it.
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IClaudia
February 16, 2010 2:18 PM in reply to davewtf
So, it seems to me that somewhere someone should post a Michele Bachmann List. Make it its own little web page. It will include any new announcements she makes and the actual facts of the issue. Just let it run. We have ample evidence that she does this a lot. It could get pretty long. Give the lazier elements of the MSM a place to start to look to check up on her and maybe it will have an effect.
Even if it doesn't, it would make a nice full-page print ad (just cut and paste) during her next run.
I would do it myself, but, alas, am not tech literate enough. Besides, I think the honor of getting it up and running belongs to someone from her home state and I live in PA. We have our own issues.
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chimpale
February 15, 2010 3:03 PM
Oh. So, we're guaranteed a right to own land, but not a right to stay alive?
Michelle, when we talk about health care, it encompasses a little more than just "staying healthy". It has to do with all medical procedures, including the life-saving kind. So, yeah, we do have a right to health care when it means the difference between living and dying. (See T. Jefferson, re: unalienable rights endowed by the Creator)
I can't believe we really have to explain this simple shit to a member of Congress.
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ottis
February 15, 2010 3:04 PM
I wonder if this lady is packing. I would be concerned to be close to her while thinking about that lady in Alabama last week.
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Schmed
February 15, 2010 3:14 PM in reply to ottis
I wonder if this lady is packing.
She's a Republican, a.k.a., a NRA shill. 'Course she's packing.
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chimpale
February 15, 2010 3:14 PM
Here's a suggestion, Michelle. Get yourself invited to the health care reform summit that the White House is holding with members of Congress next week. Then you can put your vast knowledge of citizens' rights and the U.S. economy and the state of health care in the U.S. today on display for everyone to see.
Maybe they'll even have a stool and dunce cap ready especially for you.
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VictorLH
February 15, 2010 3:16 PM
Another Republican Lying Alert!!
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Sailormarlowe
February 15, 2010 3:21 PM
Michele Bachmann, resplendent Representative from the great State of Minnesota. Her voice, her enchanting voice! "There is sweet music here, that softer falls than petals from blown roses on the grass..." And, she is right on the issues, strong in her principled convictions.
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Michael A
February 15, 2010 3:24 PM in reply to Sailormarlowe
LOL. Awesome sarcasm. Too funny.
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Marinus van der Lubbe
February 15, 2010 6:14 PM in reply to Michael A
Dumbass...he's serious!
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Michael A
February 15, 2010 6:23 PM in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe
Whoosh . . . sarcasm meter is off. I was being sarcastic.
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Marinus van der Lubbe
February 15, 2010 7:36 PM in reply to Michael A
Whoosh...give a fuck meter is off too...
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lousgirl84
February 16, 2010 3:47 PM in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe
LOL. I would love to get into a cat fight with this bitch. I would love to kick her ass. It would give me so much pleasure. Then I'd scrape the meat off her skinny bones (LOL) God it felt good to say that.
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Marinus van der Lubbe
February 16, 2010 4:08 PM in reply to lousgirl84
LOL...4 clues out, all done
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lousgirl84
February 16, 2010 4:13 PM in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe
Shoot. I only found one.
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lousgirl84
February 16, 2010 5:06 PM in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe
I found only two. I am getting dizzy trying to find the other two. I have a feeling they add up to an "address"
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Marinus van der Lubbe
February 16, 2010 5:09 PM in reply to lousgirl84
Yes.
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lousgirl84
February 16, 2010 5:29 PM in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe
I only have two pieces of the puzzle!!! Help!!!
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Schmed
February 15, 2010 3:37 PM in reply to Sailormarlowe
Speed kills, buddy.
Crack does too.
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Marinus van der Lubbe
February 15, 2010 6:13 PM in reply to Sailormarlowe
Meaningless Mudbrained Bitch Michelle has no clue as to what the fuck she is talking about sailorFELCHtongue.....
Take your sorry RACIST and HOMOPHOBIC ass back to whatever crawl space mommy lets you out of.
The only thing she is right about is collecting her $250,000.00 dollar farm subsidies ala her socialist tax sucking ass.
Oh, btw, love your new dress, bitch.
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JNagarya
February 15, 2010 7:00 PM in reply to Sailormarlowe
If you cared about your country, you wouldn't shill for incompetence. You don't care about your country.
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oskieoskie
February 15, 2010 3:22 PM
What has she done to earn so much attention from TPM?
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bluebell
February 15, 2010 3:29 PM in reply to oskieoskie
Yup, TPM has been especially active in promoting Michele over there in MN-6. You wouldn't even know we have a great liberal guy representing MN-5. Who needs FOX?
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chimpale
February 15, 2010 3:48 PM in reply to bluebell
In 2008, most people weren't even aware of her until her appearance on Hardball a couple of weeks before the election. After that, money poured in to her opponent's website from all over the country. But, there wasn't a lot he could do with it at that point to catch up.
I don't think that it's doing a Fox News-like service to show what a loon this bitch is. The greater the awareness, the earlier the contributions come in and the better her opponent's chances to beat her.
Just skip over the Bachmann articles if you don't like them. What's truly amazing is that this stuff doesn't get reported in the local papers in her district or in the Twin Cities.
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hey norm
February 15, 2010 3:25 PM
40%? If we take away her farm subsidies maybe we will be less socialistic an have lower taxes.
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mikedrevguy
February 15, 2010 3:31 PM
shall we expect to see this more frequently as a GOP talking point? You know - if you repeat something often enough, it becomes true.
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Michael A
February 15, 2010 3:35 PM in reply to mikedrevguy
Goebbels would be proud of today's repukes. They are taking his strategies and tactics to new levels.
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Silence
February 15, 2010 3:34 PM
$ 1 2 , 3 6 4 , 5 0 7 , 6 0 8 , 6 2 5 . 8 5
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Michael A
February 15, 2010 3:43 PM in reply to Silence
Wow, what a number.
In fact, deficit spending exploded under the b-movie actor and bush the elder, started to go down under the Clintons, and exploded again under the king. Hmmm, seems to me that 9/10ths of that huge number is attributable to repukes.
http://www.marktaw.com/culture_and_media/TheNationalDebt.html
Oh, but it's those nasty facts in the face of absurdity that just get in the way.
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Silence
February 15, 2010 4:05 PM in reply to Michael A
Ticktock.
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VictorLH
February 15, 2010 4:15 PM in reply to Silence
Troll
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Silence
February 15, 2010 4:33 PM in reply to VictorLH
Ticktock, ticktock.
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chimpale
February 15, 2010 4:38 PM in reply to Silence
Douchebag, douchebag.
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KeithL
February 15, 2010 4:44 PM in reply to Silence
Is that you, Tock? Are you looking for a chance at the rest of Captain Hook?
OMG! Is Michelle really Wendy? Almost grown up? Hmmm! Both of you certainly seem to live in a fervid fantasy for clueless kids.
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pv2k
February 15, 2010 4:59 PM
Debt rose under the G W Bush administration by $6.1 trillion. True a record in total dollars but that was only a 105% increase in debt. The record is 186% increase and that is held by the champion all time budget buster, Ronald Reagan.
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Michael A
February 15, 2010 5:09 PM in reply to pv2k
And the vast majority of that debt was incurred to feed the military industrial complex beast, and in turn repuke campaign contributors. The money was p*ssed away on weapons and weapon systems that will never be used or are a ridiculous waste of money like aircraft carriers. And when the repukes are out of power they whine about the deficit? WTF.
Why don't people wake the f*ck up?
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Silence
February 15, 2010 5:00 PM
$ 1 2 , 3 6 4 , 7 4 0 , 5 1 6 , 7 0 5 . 7 0
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jhill123
February 16, 2010 8:46 AM in reply to Silence
3.141592653589793238462643383
There's a number too, but of more value than made up ones like yours.
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jeffgee
February 15, 2010 5:35 PM
"Reagan proved that deficits don't matter, this is our due", Dick Cheney, 2003, after the GOP regained a 51 vote majority in the Senate. Note that number, Senate Democrats.
They don't matter only when the GOP is in charge.
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ottis
February 15, 2010 6:01 PM
Bachman-Bishop, sure look like twins. They have identical eyes.
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Liberal Jesus
February 15, 2010 6:58 PM
Republicans like Bachmann do not live in the world of reality. If they did they'd blow their brains out because reality is a bitch. I find it odd that sailor and all her supporters never ever answer this one question. Why didn't Bush fund the prescription b drug plan, why didn't Bush fund the tax breaks he gave the wealthy, why didn't Bush fund the 2 wars he started. Never in the time of these United States has a President ever gone to war and not increased taxes to pay for it. Republicans ran debts under Nixon, Reagan, and both Bush's, but at least Bush 1 raised taxes like it was needed. And do we need to talk about the surplus Clinton left. GW Bush and the republicans raided the Social Security fund to pay for tax cuts. Just one republican who posts here should step forward and explain the economics of those 3 programs that Bush never funded before you even talk about the mess you left President Obama to clean up. I'll bet you sailor and sidewinder never answers this simple question.
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Vincent F
February 15, 2010 7:05 PM
I heard Obama has spent more money than any other govt in the history of the world combined. Combined! That gives you some context. If you're gonna lie, Michelle, go big or Sarah, Tom Tacredo, or some other Tea Bagger is going to steal your seat of honor with the "Christians."
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Lestatdelc
February 15, 2010 8:08 PM in reply to Vincent F
And what you heard, if you bothered to found out that faqcts, is wrong.
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Capn Chucky
February 16, 2010 2:06 PM in reply to Lestatdelc
Did you read the second sentence above? I'm pretty sure Vincent's first sentence was ever so slightly sarcastic.
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Capn Chucky
February 16, 2010 2:08 PM in reply to Capn Chucky
Sorry. Fourth sentence.
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DP1
February 15, 2010 8:04 PM
I've got just one question....How do these a**holes think they get paid when they get elected? The money just grows on trees and deposits itself in the treasury? Our fracking taxes pay these ass holes, why are they still in office?
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Ann Arbor
February 15, 2010 8:04 PM
Dear Michele,
May you and your husband wind up unemployed in your 50s. Good luck getting health insurance.
Oh, heck, for good measure, let's throw in a pre-existing condition or two.
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Capn Chucky
February 16, 2010 2:10 PM in reply to Ann Arbor
Does her psychosis count as a pre-existing condition?
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jsdc007
February 15, 2010 8:08 PM
This woman is a bold-faced liar, but I bet that Fox News will never call her on her lies.
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danro
February 15, 2010 8:34 PM
are u sure she isnt gnarly titz in drag?
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danro
February 15, 2010 8:39 PM
are u sure she isnt gnarly t**z in drag?
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acf_ma
February 15, 2010 10:59 PM
Nobody is that uninformed. It has to be a case of deliberately lying to those who believe anything from her as gospel. This keeps the unthinking right suitably agitated but in line, and lets others remain above the fray to work on the marginal voters who turn elections. If we get too worked up about her, then we take our eyes off the ball, and let those marginal voters get turned. Refute the lies, but don't let her chew up news cycles with them.
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elle a
February 16, 2010 2:59 PM in reply to acf_ma
i believe she is uninformed.
she has no idea what she is talking about.
its a pity she holds elected office, but then you have to blame the people who voted her in.
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rmwarnick
February 15, 2010 11:54 PM
From Wikipedia...
National Debt, 2001 = $5.7699 trillion
National Debt, 2009 = $12.3114 trillion
Difference = $6.5415 trillion (not $400 billion)
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scottsoperson
February 16, 2010 1:21 AM
scott brown's daughter was on the joy behar show.
http://www.aylabrown.com/
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scottsoperson
February 16, 2010 1:23 AM
bachman's appearance is not relevant.
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pstamler
February 16, 2010 2:52 AM
This is excellent news!! For Sailorman!!!!
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nitpicker
February 16, 2010 3:27 AM
Listen, when the lies get this obvious, why can't Obama sue for libel?
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P White
February 16, 2010 6:45 AM
When Dems blow her and her ilk off as being ridiculous and not worth responding to, remember that it's highly unlikely any of those in her audience will ever hear or more importantly believe the corrections. Given 2 totally contradictory sets of fact, conservatives have no problem 'choosing' the ones that suit their purpose.
Dems have brushed off this nonsense ever since it began. Nobody took it seriously and look what's happened. If somebody doesn't figure out that this is a war, we might as well turn this country over to them right now and save ourselves the grief of elections.
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misterearle
February 16, 2010 11:57 AM
I'm not sure there actually is a right to own property. Not that there isn't, but the Founders' attitude is complicated. To the extent that the Declaration of Independence is a founding document, it clearly says "pursuit of happiness" rather than "property." The idea that the U.S.A. is from its inception based wholly on Lockean ideals never seems to be able to deal with this glitch in a way I find satisfying. So....anyway.....
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slb
February 16, 2010 4:11 PM in reply to misterearle
Seems to me a right to own property is implied in the Fifth Amendment: in the takings clause, which requires just compensation if private property is taken for public use, as well as in the general prohibition against depriving individuals of life, liberty, or property without due process of law.
I think there is also a nod to the notion of the sanctity of private property in the Fourth Amendment prohibition against unresonable search and seizure, and in the Third Amendment restrictions regarding quartering soldiers on private property without the owner's consent.
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slb
February 16, 2010 4:17 PM in reply to misterearle
I will also say that Jefferson's substitution of "pursuit of happiness" for "property" was an expansion of Locke's idea, not a replacement of it. I think his idea was that the acquisition of property was not the only goal for which people labored, and that they were free to do with the fruit of their labor whatever seemed to them the best way to pursue their life's ambitions.
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Selkirk
February 16, 2010 12:46 PM
I don't get the point of this article. Clearly, Bachmann got her facts wrong, and her comparison of the Obama budget with the Bush budgets were overstated, but once you read the facts as TPM puts it, I think her point resonates. In 8 years, the accumulation of federal deficits (which is a very fair calculation of the increase in federal debt) under the Bush administration was $2.4 trillion, and the deficit for one year of the Obama administration was $1.7 trillion. While it would be very fair to criticize President Bush for his spending habits (including the establishment of a massive unfunded entitlement), Obama's budget is utterly indefensible. Add the fact that his own (pie-in-the-sky) projections show those deficits to increase even more during his term, I really wonder how the author of this article proposes to defend the President's spending agenda.
Yes, Congresswoman Bachmann makes for an easy target when she comes to the debate with faulty data, but her conclusions are still sound.
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hollywood
February 16, 2010 2:01 PM in reply to Selkirk
Why are conservatives so dismissive of facts they do not like? The budget is not some god damned religion you can endlessly bullshit about until it suits your purposes. Bush gave huge tax breaks to the richest of the rich instead of paying for his fucking war in Iraq. Completely irresponsible deceptive bullshit. How does a conservative feel about 'tax cuts' to the rich that are actually BORROWED MONEY? Isn't that the stupidest budget possible? A political LIE that is a time bomb on all future budgets? Of coarse it is! Why start a war over oil without having a way to pay for it? Why not ask for tax increases to pay for the war? The responsible people wanted Bush to put his money where his mouth was but as Cheney explained and Reagan proved ..... deficits do not matter to Rethuglicans ..... except to lie about later for even more political advantage. The lying just astounds me. Bachman should be slapped in the face!
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Selkirk
February 16, 2010 2:30 PM in reply to hollywood
Hard to respond to a nonsensical post, but I'll give it a shot. I agree that Bush is hardly the gold standard when it comes to sound economic policy (as I mentioned in my first post), and your thought on the economics of the war are well taken. However, the economics of tax cuts are a different animal altogether, as tax cuts are demonstrably good for the economy. Feel free to denigrate them as tax cuts for the wealthy, but the fact remains that they create jobs, and that should be the focus of the current administration.
All that said, I continue to fail to understand why all the focus on Bush or Bachmann, when the focus should really be on the out-of-control spending of the current administration. Where has all that money gone, and why hasn't the economy improved even one iota as a result of all this spending?
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hollywood
February 16, 2010 3:10 PM in reply to Selkirk
Nonesense? You say Bachman is using sound logic but I am nonsensical? What the fuck?
Tax cuts for the wealthy do not create jobs period. They pad the bank accounts of rich people period. Middle Class purchasing power creates jobs. Take away income from the middle class, the vast majority of Americans and POOF jobs disappear. Raise the income and purchasing power of the vast majority of Americans and POOF jobs will reappear. You are either a willful fool or just a lying stooge on that one. As far as how the economy has 'improved' with the stimulus ..... how bad would it be without the stimulus? Just ask all the conservative republicans to give back the stimulus moneys spent in their districts and see. Asshole. Just ask all the state budget officials how many people would be without jobs if not for the infusion of federal dollars. Just ask! Your bullshit trickle down pissing on the VAST buying power of the VAST majority of Americans in favor of the tiny group of money hoarders just does not cut it anymore. Your theories shit the bed and will never be taken seriously again.
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lousgirl84
February 16, 2010 3:49 PM in reply to Selkirk
The economy is recovering. Just not as fast as most would like. This shit didn't happen overnight and it's not going to be fixed overnight and especially since your thug friends don't want any progress on Obama's watch.
You people really make me sick expecting a complete turnaround in a year when it took at least 8 years to get us here.
Get real asshole
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slb
February 16, 2010 4:24 PM in reply to Selkirk
Oh, please. The economy has improved, but as most supporters of the stimulus said, the amount of the stimulus was too small to have more than a very minimal impact. Paul Krugman said from the beginning that the inadequate size of the stimulus was going to mean only a slow and painful recovery, and he's been proven absolutely right. The problem is that since the Republicans decided to sit on their hands and moan rather than work to help find a solution, it's the best that could be gotten through Congress.
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lousgirl84
February 16, 2010 4:35 PM in reply to slb
Well its easy for Krugman to talk. Talk is cheap. You see how difficult it was getting this stimulus passed.
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hollywood
February 16, 2010 7:47 PM in reply to lousgirl84
The sad thing is the fascist rich people's party spent 8 years spending like there was no tomorrow and now they drag their heels on fixing the mess because they can blame the Dems for unemployment ..... how fucking greedy and cynical are these rich white guys anyway?
Remember when the price of oil went through the roof and gas hit 5$ a gallon here in California? Well the fascist rich people's party insisted it was just the perfect market perfecting itself and the oil companies were just honest businessmen and the oil futures market was just more honest commodity traders .... and we all just didn't understand how business works ..... except they all get filthy rich and we all get dirt poor .... same game over and over. Steal, Lie, Steal, Lie, Steal, Lie, etc.....Nobody ever punishes these assholes. They just take a breath and start a new scam. I am so disgusted with how America really works.
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lousgirl84
February 16, 2010 8:59 PM in reply to hollywood
I feel your pain and I live in Southern California (West LA) and I remember it all too well. I don't know what the answer is. In fact, after this Supreme Court;s recent ruling on corporations being people and can give as much money as they can to campaigns, I don't know why we will even bother to vote.
I think finding another country to live in is probably the solution. It's a dire one, but......
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hollywood
February 16, 2010 11:03 PM in reply to lousgirl84
Hey~ I am in West Hollywood~ I am also starting to think of another country to live my life in. As you say with the Supreme Court officially designating corporations as people I think that about finishes off whatever chance there was of steering this mess into a better future. Like some science fiction novel we just reached a tipping point of evolution to Soylent Green/The Matrix. My first choice would be Canada as the healthcare debate here just proved most Americans are too stupid to even realize we pay twice as much for our horrible corporate profit system and cannot even agree that everyone deserves to HAVE basic healthcare, much less go bankrupt and die anyway. America is just pigs and sheep .... corporate masters farming the masses for ever more obscene profits. 45,000 people die every year from preventable things due to lack of insurance and we as a nation cannot even agree that is outrageous. 3000 die on 911 and we spend a trillion dollars on a war with a country that had nothing to do with it at all. We are so pathetic.
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kenga
February 16, 2010 4:47 PM in reply to Selkirk
However, the economics of tax cuts are a different animal altogether, as tax cuts are demonstrably good for the economy.
So you are suggesting that our(US) economy has had no adverse events in recent years? Adverse events largely a result of choices made by people in the highest income brackets, who were the recipients of one of the largest tax cuts in human history? And whose rational economic decisions were evidently driven largely by the greed unleashed by being told they could keep even more of their ludicrous compensation?
Your bald assertion is in need of some qualifiers before it is capable of being a true statement.
Some tax cuts are demonstrably good for the economy. Payroll tax cuts, for instance, leave more money in the pockets of low wage earners*, which tends to get spent when needed and saved when not needed. (*by which I mean all us proles making less than 6 figures.)
Some are demonstrably bad - witness the impact of the tax cuts included in the AARP(which I myself have benefited from - my tax software says I am in a lower bracket, and AGI is lower for 2009 than 2008, even though my salary was higher.)
I, and the vast majority of the people who received those tax cuts, have not gone out and spent them - which would have been stimulative. Instead, we have largely saved the money, or used it to pay down debts to banks and other financial lending institutions which have promptly added the funds to their capital reserves, while tightening their lending requirements.
So we've got an additional $180 billion in debt to show for that particular tax cut - which was billed as stimulus.
ROI for tax cuts is sometimes positive, but for my example it is decidedly negative. As are most tax cuts.
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kenga
February 16, 2010 5:13 PM in reply to Selkirk
All that said, I continue to fail to understand why all the focus on Bush or Bachmann, when the focus should really be on the out-of-control spending of the current administration.
You could have saved yourself typing most of that, and left it as:
"I continue to fail"
I'm going to assume that you don't actually realize that garbage you just spouted is a gigantic red herring bred with a highly flammable straw man.
1. Just because you say that the current administration is out-of-control does not make it so.
2. The current administration is chained to the spending committed to by the Bush Administration, who, as we know, was grossly irresponsible in their spending habits. (That is an example of a demonstrable claim - exhibits A & B are the unfunded upper-class tax cut, and the unfunded Medicare Part D drug benefit. We'll leave Exhibit C, the Iraq debacle, for another day.)
3. Those who cannot remember history are doomed to repeat it - this is why we need to focus, to at least some extent, on the profligate wasteful spending of the Bush Administrations, so that we can avoid such mistakes in the future. Much of the current spending that is so deplored by "conservatives" is spending that, again - Bush committed his successors to and which they have no choice over.
4. Your "Look over there!" attempts really don't work on people who pay attention to these things.
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Sailormarlowe
February 16, 2010 2:32 PM
Mrs. Minnesota, pretty Rep. Michele Bachmann, she really got a knack for bringing the screamers & hysterics swishing out of the closet. They rant & fret for awhile, then give it up. Heh heh.
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lousgirl84
February 16, 2010 5:31 PM in reply to Sailormarlowe
She certainly brings the idiots out like you for sure. Does your-11-year old son know his dad jerks off in front of pictures of Bachmann and Palin. Or better yet, does his mother?
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texscubarat
February 16, 2010 3:53 PM
Let see MeeChele, if no-one paid taxes, where would the money come from to pay your salary (which I am positive you won't surrender in place of no taxes)? Or keep law enforcement working. Or firemen, VA Hospital for the people who fight for our freedom, etc...
I support smaller government and think we should start by you leaving - There instant smaller government. Not so hard.
Such a dumb-ass, and everyone see's it.
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Tosh
June 6, 2010 2:37 AM
In 2008, most people weren't even aware of her until her appearance on Hardball a couple of weeks before the election. After that, money poured in to her opponent's website from all over the country. But, there wasn't a lot he could do with it at that point to catch up.
I don't think that it's doing a Fox News-like service to show what a loon this bitch is. The greater the awareness, the earlier the contributions come in and the better her opponent's chances to beat her.
Just skip over the Bachmann articles if you don't like them. What's truly amazing is that this stuff doesn't get reported in the local papers in her district or in the Twin Cities.
m65 kamagra
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