TPMDC

Dems: Memo On Medicare Changes Isn't Ours -- It's A GOP 'Hoax'


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Democrats today are accusing Republicans of circulating a fraudulent memo that claims to be sent to "Democratic health and communications staff" and which suggests the majority party leadership wants to make big changes to Medicare next year after health care passes.

A senior Democratic leadership aide told TPMDC in an interview the memo, obtained and printed by Politico and leading the Drudge Report this afternoon a few days ahead of the health care vote Sunday, is "a hoax."

[READ THE MEMO HERE]

"We have checked with every Democratic office, no one has ever seen it. It did not come out of a Democratic office," the aide said, adding that media outlets printing the memo have not checked with leadership offices if the memo is authentic. A second Democratic leadership aide confirmed the memo was not sent by the Democrats. A third Democratic aide also said the memo is fake, citing the "draft" stamp and saying no one uses such things.

"If this were a Democratic communications person who wrote this, they should be fired, because this looks like Republican talking points," the third Democratic aide told TPMDC.

The memo alleging the changes commonly known as a "doc fix" would be politically damaging to Democrats, who already are holding together a fragile coalition to get the needed 216 votes Sunday.

The Politico items quotes from the memo as saying, "We cannot emphasize this enough: do not allow yourself (or your boss) to get into a discussion of the details of CBO scores and textual narrative. Instead, focus only on the deficit reduction and number of Americans covered."

"This is an unethical underhanded dirty trick by Republicans to try and distract from important debate on health care reform," the senior Democratic leadership aide said.

No sources interviewed for this story could positively assure that there were no plans to do a doc fix, though the senior aide told me that "It hasn't even been discussed."


Late Update: I asked House Minority Leader John Boehner's spokesman Michael Steel, who sent reporters the memo this afternoon after the Politico item was posted, about the accusation. Here's his response: "The underlying fact is the Democratic leadership is going to move a doc fix, they are going to spend another $300 billion. If not, why did AMA endorse the bill?"

Politico published this note this afternoon, removing the memo after we first posted this piece:

An earlier post in this spot detailed what was purported by Republicans to be an internal Democratic memo regarding the upcoming health reform vote Sunday. Democratic leadership has challenged the authenticity of the memo. POLITICO has removed the memo and the details about it until we can absolutely verify the document's origin.


Later Update: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi was asked why the "doc fix" wasn't included in the legislation at her weekly press conference this morning.

Her response:

Well, we have been including it in legislation for a long time, because it's not about a doctor fix, it's about our seniors or anyone who relies upon Medicare to have access to physicians, that they be in their region and in their program.

So this is again, you call it the doctor fix, but it is really about access to health care for Americans. It's not in this bill, but we will have it soon. And we have made a commitment to do this. This is very important.

A reporter followed up with a question about the cost and adding to the deficit.

Well, we will see how we advance the bill.  But last year, when we did our budget, we had a number of issues that were not part of pay as you go.  They were a CR, the sustainable growth rate, which is what you are referencing; they were middle class tax cuts; and the AMT.  And that is what we are, that's what we have addressed.  As we go forward, and it will be soon, we will address that, because it is necessary mostly for our seniors, but anyone who has access to Medicare services.

Third Update: Stephanie Lundberg, spokeswoman for House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer says the memo is not credible. "It's not a Democratic leadership memo and it didn't come from the committee and it is certainly being presented that way," she tells TPMDC.

And, indeed, the memo reads as guidance to rank and file members--and those sorts of talking points tend to come from leadership.

"No House or communications staff has seen it," Lundberg said.

The memo was blasted out to reporters after it first appeared on Politico by Republican leadership aides.


Fourth Update: GOP leaders were asked about our story and said the memo isn't important in a press conference this afternoon.


Fifth Update: Leadership lodges an official complaint in a statement we posted here.


Final Update: Let's take a step back and evaluate what we know. Here's TPMDC's tick-tock.


Additional reporting by Brian Beutler

Comments (141) | Join the Conversation!

Recommend Recommend (3)

March 19, 2010 2:45 PM   

I wonder how much my blood pressure would drop if I stopped reading political blogs.

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March 19, 2010 2:51 PM    in reply to cambridgeMR

I stopped watching cable news in 2000 for that very reason, and I haven't missed it for a day.

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March 19, 2010 3:20 PM    in reply to LarsThorwald

Too me.

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March 19, 2010 3:39 PM    in reply to Brownbagger

ditto.

And that's even with having a crush-that-can-never-be on Ms. Maddow.

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March 19, 2010 4:27 PM    in reply to zonk

Gave 'em all up until 2012 on January 21, 2008. I'm planning on avoiding all news on Election night 2010 until the next day. No use ruining that night's sleep.

You know, unless the polls change drastically and it looks like there'll be some high-five time in them.

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March 19, 2010 4:22 PM    in reply to LarsThorwald

The repubs blackmailed a senator in 1993 with his son---when he voted against them--$100,000 was the sum --his name was Scmith or Smith...This is nothing new for them.
They have lied about everything else--why not try to distort with more BS..Ugly, bloodless and a scourge on their souls!

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March 19, 2010 8:32 PM    in reply to Docb

That was during Bush's term when they were voting for the Medicaid Drug rip off. It was Nick Smith and they (DeLay & Boehner) threatened to cut off campaign funds fro his son.

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March 20, 2010 9:56 AM    in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe

I am shocked SHOCKED to hear about Rethugs using dirty tricks!

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March 20, 2010 1:00 PM    in reply to CityGuy

City....what's new?

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March 20, 2010 1:31 PM    in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe

Nothing new here or in DC. ...Oh you did see where Pelosi told Stupak to choke on the separate vote that he wanted? Guess madam Speaker figures she has the votes necessary without "Stupid" or his fellow nervous nellies.

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March 19, 2010 4:47 PM    in reply to LarsThorwald

Me too. Patrick Kennedy's rant the other day reflected my same sentiments about the media. In case you missed it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q-VGZiEbrs

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March 19, 2010 3:57 PM    in reply to cambridgeMR

No longer watch CNN. Gave Sanchez/Velshi a shot for about a week....it was awful, and they're probably the best CNN has. Watch KO and RM, and Ratigan once in a while, but cable news is a waste of time.

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March 19, 2010 4:16 PM    in reply to Max Thrax

CNN is trying to catch up with FUX for the nutwing right crowd.

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March 19, 2010 2:51 PM   

a lot. no more lipitore.

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March 19, 2010 2:53 PM   

What would make a really good story for Politico is if they were able to find out where the memo actually came from. A little investigative journalism might be required. But hey, what a scoop that would be, huh?

And here's a heads up for Politico: Republicans really will stoop that low, and between now and Sunday afternoon will probably go much lower, too.

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March 19, 2010 3:03 PM    in reply to chimpale

"A little investigative journalism might be required."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Thanks. I needed a good laugh.

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March 19, 2010 3:10 PM    in reply to mans_best_friend

I'm laughing with you at that one....

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March 19, 2010 3:15 PM    in reply to mans_best_friend

heeheehee

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March 19, 2010 3:16 PM    in reply to mans_best_friend

Hint: See document properties.

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March 19, 2010 3:19 PM    in reply to AlphaLiberal

What about them?

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slb

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March 19, 2010 3:32 PM    in reply to JanglerNPL

If it's written in Microsoft Word, for example, the document properties can tell you who wrote the original document (or at least whose name was on the software license) and when, and what UserID last saved it and when. It will even tell you what template was used to create it. But that requires having a copy of the computer file.

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March 19, 2010 3:39 PM    in reply to JanglerNPL

It can tell you where the doc originated. I'm pretty sure a good forger would altered them, though.

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slb

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March 19, 2010 3:58 PM    in reply to henk

You are assuming Republican dirty tricks operatives would be good forgers.

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March 19, 2010 4:09 PM    in reply to slb

It's a scanned document from an analog copy. There are no Word properties.

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March 19, 2010 2:56 PM   

Politico is not a serious news organization. It's not quite Fox, but it stinks.

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slb

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March 19, 2010 3:33 PM    in reply to Swift63

Amen. They should have authenticated something like that before publishing it.

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March 19, 2010 2:56 PM   

Fun times. I haven't read wingnut blogs in a few months, but I stopped by the Corner this morning to savor the loathing and teeth gnashing. K-Lo and crew did not disappoint.

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March 19, 2010 3:27 PM    in reply to pinson

Yea. I went over to check this out, and they took down the memo, but left up all their readers' comments. Based on the 100-to-1 anti-American screed factor, I recalled why I never go there.

Will Murdoch buy Politico, or run it out of business for competing with FOX for ad dollars?

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March 19, 2010 3:00 PM   

Was the memo signed by Dr. E.F. Lavender?

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March 19, 2010 3:03 PM   

Holy Batshit Wingnut CrazyDays,

It's absolutely crazy how the wingers are out in force on all the comments sections of any news site you can think of frothing at the mouth trying to ease into that second stage of grief knowing HCR is going to pass and that there's nothing they can do about it!

It's so damn satisfying. And this memo makes plain as day how desperate they truly are. I love reacting smugly to them, it's really quite gratifying to see how it tees them off even more.

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March 19, 2010 4:21 PM    in reply to arias

Ha.....scared arent they....it is a lovely sight.

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March 19, 2010 3:05 PM   

This health care plan is the most serious effort at long term deficit reduction in at least a dozen years. It insures 30 million Americans and ends the practice of canceling insurance policies when the patient gets sick. It's a terrific bill.

Now the stuff that's *not* in the bill-- death panels, Medicare cancellation, flying attack monkeys -- that stuff is scary.

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March 19, 2010 4:16 PM    in reply to Measure for Measure

M for M, I've read your posts for a while on TPM and generally think they are thoughtful even when I disagree.

But in this case, your claim that the bill "insures 30 million Americans" is incorrect. The bill may force 30 million people to buy insurance and it may help some of those people pay for some or part of that insurance, but that is not the same thing.

Clearly the bill does other things too, and we can debate their merits, but in no fashion can it be argued that the bill does what you suggest.

I hope you'll agree and retract that false assertion.

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AJM

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March 19, 2010 6:06 PM    in reply to truth > spin

How about if we say insures that 30 million Americans don't go uninsured and stick the rest of us with the tabs for their illnesses?

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March 19, 2010 8:21 PM    in reply to AJM

That's certainly more accurate that the line used in the post, but not entirely true either. It's main flaw is that it is absolute on two levels.

First, some people will choose to go uninsured post HCR bill and pay the penalty - in fact the CBO score counts on $17 billion being raised from that penalty, which means it expect a not insignificant number to choose this path.

Second, that someone doesn't have insurance is not a guarantee that everyone else gets stuck with the tab for their care. Some people are very happy to pay of pocket for their own care. Some who are uninsured have zero in care costs. Some who are uninsured are provided care through the charity of specific organizations and individuals. While in this last case it is true that someone else is paying for their care, but that someone isn't you or I or the public in general (except perhaps though the non-profit tax exemption on the organization, but that a rather tertiary connection).

How about simply: "the bill requires up to 30 million Americans to obtain insurance and provides premium support for those most in need." Seems fair and isn't using loaded language either way.

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AJM

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March 19, 2010 8:48 PM    in reply to truth > spin

Not fair because it does not deal with the effects of the various choices to remain uninsured. For those who can truly self-insure -- maintain the several millions dollars necessary care for themselves should they meet with an accident which leaves them paraplegic -- the fine represents a contribution to the care of their fellow Americans and a de minimus burden on them. The rest who choose to remain uninsured are putting their fellow Americans at risk of having to meet the costs of medical care for their illnesses. By experience, we do this grudgingly and poorly -- whether done through the government or thru charity. My personal opinion of private charity is that it is a neat trick for arranging to tax only the good people.

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March 19, 2010 9:35 PM    in reply to AJM

Be all that as it may be, the fact is that some portion of the 30 million will still go without insurance and some portion of those who do will never end up costing the public a dime for their care.

Do you have an objection to my descriptive line? It truly seems fair to me.

One massive complaint I have about this entire debate has been how it has been presented and defended/attacks from each side. Although the zero-sum nature of our politics makes this language attractive, the public is always lesser for it because invariably the promises made are not met and the worst fears are never realized. Instead, the screechy rhetoric just turns increasing numbers of the public away from paying attention.

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March 19, 2010 10:05 PM    in reply to AJM

Got news for you.

We pay over $100 billion dollars a year to hospitals as bonuses for serving uninsured people in emergency rooms. That is to say, we already pay for it. And we do so in the most inefficient way imaginable.

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March 19, 2010 3:06 PM   

The Republicans have reached the end when this is what they are left with.

The coming meltdown and depression on the right once health care passes is not being discussed enough. The loonies are throwing out members of their party who can actually win. Democrats could pick up Senate seats in Florida and Kentucky that we have no real reason to win, solely because the Right is completely taking over.

The last few moderates in their party are going to stay home and some may finally switch.

The Republicans have been energized by their perceived victory and momentum in stopping Democratic initiatives. Now those initiatives are going to pass, and more will follow health care.

Passage of this bill could well flip the script on voter turnout this November.

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March 19, 2010 3:17 PM    in reply to Frank Pentangeli

Which is why the increasingly outrageous behavior from the GOP. As for who wrote the 'memo' - during Watergate I was young and naive, I would say, "Even Nixon wouldn't do that." but he did, every time. I learned: there is nothing, repeat nothing, so low, vile, underhanded and illegal that a Republican won't do it.

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slb

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March 19, 2010 3:38 PM    in reply to Powkat

Indeed. Who would have thought they'd have stooped to jamming the telephones for a Senate election in New Hampshire? But they did.

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March 19, 2010 3:06 PM   

Someone needs to be publicly arrested and convicted for perpetrating fraud against the people and the government

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March 19, 2010 3:12 PM   

OK, so this is a fake memo. But what about the facts in it, are they true or false??

If they are true, "it's a hoax!!" reaction seems a little panicky.

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March 19, 2010 3:16 PM    in reply to Lalo35adm

Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?

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March 19, 2010 3:21 PM    in reply to AlphaLiberal

No I don't. Josh Marshall, of all people, is "not ready to call it a hoax". Maybe we have a rebuttal of the facts in the memo?

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wyt

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March 19, 2010 3:31 PM    in reply to Lalo35adm

You must be kidding. Can you rebut the "facts in the memo," where the memo is one I just wrote about your plans to rape your child after killing your grandparents? The "facts" in this memo are allegations of what might be done in the future. You might deny that you have any such intent. But maybe you're not Freudian enough to realize what your unconscious is up to. I'd advise your child and grandparents to look out!

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March 19, 2010 3:37 PM    in reply to wyt

This is politics, kid. It's up to Dems to clarify whether or not they plan to implement any of this in the future.

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March 19, 2010 3:44 PM    in reply to Lalo35adm

Just like it's up to you to refute whether you plan to keep diddling toddlers.

So do you or not?

I'll concede - the memo detailing that you plan to diddle toddlers might be fake - but it's still up to answer the question.

Will you stop diddling toddlers?

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March 19, 2010 3:45 PM    in reply to zonk

Yes, all toddlers - except you.

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March 19, 2010 3:48 PM    in reply to Lalo35adm

I suppose that's a start - going from Foley level malfeasance to Craig level silliness is the essence of conservative evolution.

Now... let's talk about a plea deal for the toddlers you diddled up to the point you promised to stop.

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March 19, 2010 4:17 PM    in reply to zonk

See also:

"Show us the birthcert!" ... quickly followed by...

"Ok, now show us the longform birthcert!" ... followed by...

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March 19, 2010 3:48 PM    in reply to Lalo35adm

Actually, it's not.

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March 19, 2010 4:37 PM    in reply to Lalo35adm

Actually, it's not.

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AJM

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March 19, 2010 6:19 PM    in reply to Lalo35adm

No, first, it is up to the Republicans to explain why they resorted to lying.

Or, on the basis of current evidence, to explain how it is that they are congenital liars.

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AJM

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March 19, 2010 9:11 PM    in reply to Lalo35adm

The panic was shown in the Rethuglicans decision to resort to lying yet again. How did that work out for you in the last Presidential election?

Doesn't the Bible make some little claim about bearing false witness?

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March 19, 2010 3:35 PM    in reply to Lalo35adm

I refuse to play defense. It's up to the Republicans to acknowledge who wrote it because it's evident that no Democrat or Democratic staffer wrote it. Burden of proof on the GOP.

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March 19, 2010 3:36 PM    in reply to Lalo35adm

I know there are idiots that defend you on this blog because your blind hatred of the president matches their own, but anyone with a lick of sense knows you are simply a rightwing troll and always have been.

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March 19, 2010 4:15 PM    in reply to brewmn61

Whatever. Your blind worship of this empty suit, in complete denial of reality, means we'll never be on the same page. You might want to skip my comments in the future (unless you can afford your meds).

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March 19, 2010 4:26 PM    in reply to Lalo35adm

Short bus alert

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March 20, 2010 7:15 PM    in reply to Lalo35adm

And what did your boy have stuffed in his suit? Mission accomplished must have meant something else. There's denial of reality for you.

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AJM

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March 19, 2010 6:11 PM    in reply to Lalo35adm

That dog won't hunt: we'll circulate some of the vanished Yoo emails and demand that you defend his plans to gut the Constitution.

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March 19, 2010 3:20 PM    in reply to Lalo35adm

That was Boehner's response when confronted with questions about the bona fides of the memo: "Look, we all know it's true". Well, the question is whether the memo is the product of the Dems, or not.

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slb

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March 19, 2010 3:41 PM    in reply to George C

Yeah, just like they all "know" that the bill institutes death panels.

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March 19, 2010 3:24 PM    in reply to Lalo35adm

I think you should stare into a mirror and read that out loud to yourself. Keep reading it until you laugh at your own idiocy or get a headache.

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March 19, 2010 4:01 PM    in reply to Lalo35adm

Actually, the issue is fraud. If the Republicans, or someone trying to help them, circulated this memo under the pretense that it came from the Democrats in Congress, that's fraud.

If the Republicans really believe that's what the Dems plan to do, they can just say so publicly--as themselves, rather than trying to make everyone believe that the Dems said it.

But, the GOP is so committed to total dishonesty, complete and utter fabrication, to achieve their ends, that this is really nothing out of the ordinary for them.

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March 19, 2010 4:33 PM    in reply to chimpale

C'mon...this is nothing for them... IRAQ ...

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March 19, 2010 4:48 PM    in reply to Lalo35adm

While we're on the topic, it's irrelevant who wrote that letter on Muskie Campaign stationary. What's important is the question of whether or not he's ever used the word "Canuck."

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March 19, 2010 5:55 PM    in reply to Lalo35adm

Three words: "Yellow cake uranium"

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March 19, 2010 3:31 PM   

Question now is: WHICH *media outlets exactly printed it, so that it can be appropriately removed/addressed with the TRUTH that it's a lie?

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March 19, 2010 3:31 PM   

I lead a very sheltered life by avoiding television news, But I had to see this Beck character and I was amazed. The only place I've ever seen people make those kind of brilliant connections was at a major medical teaching hospital. In the locked psychiatric unit.

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March 19, 2010 3:33 PM   

If the mission statement of the right is; Short term goals & exposing themselves as complete lunatics, they're right on track. If not, I guess it just looks that way & they're really still focused on the "trickle down" theory.

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March 19, 2010 3:38 PM   

Notwithstanding the memo's provenance, the doc fix is the ticking time bomb.

If we don't let those payment reductions go into effect - never mind the additional $400 billion in cuts envisioned by this bill, then the CBO score is meaninglessness.

If we do, well it will be the first time since the 1997 BBA which set them in motion AND it will result in more doctors leaving the Medicare program.

Neither party has any credibility on the doc fix, so this is in no way any kind of positive for the GOP. They have arguably been worse since they had spending control for the first 10 years of the let-it-ride calculation.

Money out the door for health care is THE problem, not insurance. Spending more can't be the answer and rearranging the administrative deck chairs at this point is useless. And the days of false promises to make the tough decisions at a later date are coming to an end.

Eli is coming.

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AJM

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March 19, 2010 6:17 PM    in reply to truth > spin

Stop spinning. Your education has been neglected: A Stitch in Time Saves Nine. Spending money upfront to deal with health issues before they become medical disasters will indeed save money.

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March 19, 2010 8:10 PM    in reply to AJM

Were that the the old "spend money to save it argument" were true. If that were the case, the federal budget would be rolling in it.

Seriously, any meeting I took that included this assertion while I was a Capitol Hill staffer immediately put itself in a deep credibility hole.

Such logic almost never translates into reality.

I have no idea what the first line of your reply means, so I'll click ignore.

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AJM

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March 19, 2010 9:08 PM    in reply to truth > spin

There is a lot of truth in old saws sometimes. Spending for proper body armor saves a lifetime of caring for soldiers who have unnecessarily suffered disabling injuries. Spending for flu shots saves a lot of money in spending for pneumonia care. It depends on the specifics. And yes the claim would often be abused in lobbying but in health care the truth is patent because other countries which spend for the preventive care spend much less of medical care than we do and have much better results.

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March 19, 2010 9:47 PM    in reply to AJM

Without question there are examples of it being true. But I am not sure if that is the case in health care.

I also don't think it is because other nation's spend more on prevention that their per patient costs are less. Even among insured Americans, who often have wellness portions of their plans that are far more prevention-focused than any of the plans of other nations, our costs are still higher.

Other nations generally cap payments to doctors and other providers, which we only do in Medicare. And we are queasy about that (see doc fix). Health insurance organizations have their hands tied to the point where they only way they can control costs per patient is to dump the high cost people or set up rules that say basically if you really need their product, they don't want you to have it. It sucks all around.

But here we are thinking we are fixing something, yet none of the debate has focused on the 90% of the dollars in our entire care system that goes to pay the doctors, hospitals, drug companies, clinics and other providers. Instead we've focused on who pays the doctors.

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AJM

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March 20, 2010 12:19 AM    in reply to truth > spin

Part of the cost paid to the doctors and other providers is for their overhead in dealing with insurance companies. I'd like to see a breakout for how much is due to this as opposed to their actual services.

Given that we have yet to figure out a way to tackle what these various providers get paid and keep our allegiance to market forces, I doubt that this aspect will be fixed anytime soon. So within this context, the next available opportunity for cost reduction is to move to prevention from treatment. A stitch in time ect. which is where I believe I came in.

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March 19, 2010 3:44 PM   

The "from" line clearly says "Steny Hoyer." Did anyone check with him?

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March 19, 2010 3:45 PM    in reply to Eric Spiegelman

Or not. By "clearly" I meant "sorta unless you look closely."

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March 19, 2010 3:46 PM    in reply to Eric Spiegelman

I believe they did. I have no doubt this is a republican dirty trick. None.

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March 19, 2010 3:46 PM    in reply to Eric Spiegelman

That's what I thought at first too, but there's a dip for the 'y' in "Steny" but not in Hoyer. It certainly looked that way though. Still might be. Who blacked that part out, I wonder? The source? Politico? TPM?

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slb

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March 19, 2010 4:03 PM    in reply to Eric Spiegelman

Yeah, and I could type a memo that had Jesus Christ in the "From:" line. The "From:" line is meaningless for identifying the actual source of the document.

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March 19, 2010 3:44 PM   

Has Karl Rove been in the vicinity? this kind of thing is exactly his style.

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March 19, 2010 3:52 PM   

This argument is so ridiculous anyway. If the doc fix is inevitable, it's inevitable even if this bill doesn't pass. This is like saying HCR isn't deficit neutral because they don't count all the money we'll spend in Afghanistan this year. I'm sure someone else can explain it better but I'm rather peeved right now.

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March 19, 2010 4:29 PM    in reply to JanglerNPL

I understand your point and although I agree that money is fungible.

I would argue the concern about the doc fix is valid in that under current law we were supposed to have reduced payments to doctors (and other providers) by 21% by this point.

Background:It wasn't suppose to all come at once, but since passage as part of the 1997 BBA, it was suppose to step down over time - but both parties have caved to the pressure from the AMA to grant a "temporary" forbearance from the payment reductions. And they've done it every year, so now we are at the point where we need a 21% cut to get back on track.

Besides the argument that the current HCR bill was supposed to be comprehensive and not based on gimmicks, which in itself makes leaving the doc fix for later a scam, there is the issue that the budget numbers are (and must be) based off current law. Meaning they suppose that the 21% cuts will be in place starting in October and then on top of that we'll have the $400 billion in payment reductions made as a result of this bill. If they didn't assume that, this bill would score negatively (and thus lose many votes).

But worse, is that the health outcomes and coverage assessments are based on assuming the doc fix will be in place. So they use whichever numbers are most advantages even though they can't both be true at the same time.

So there you go. Will it matter? Not at all. What it really means is that those members who have said they needed a good score from CBO are having other palpitations about the bill.

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March 19, 2010 4:41 PM    in reply to JanglerNPL

Allow me to address it this way too.

From Josh's fp post:

Democrats have made no secret of the fact that they want to permanently repeal the law -- which is little more than making the current reality official. And pretty reasonably they say that it doesn't have anything to do with the Health Care Reform legislation since it's not like something that makes this bill cost more.

I'll agree with Josh that the doc fix has nothing to do with the HCR bill per se and it doesn't make the bill cost more per se, but it does mean that we will be actually spending that much more.

If we currently say we are going to spend X (the law under the BBA.)
And then really spend Y (the reality under the year after year doc fix).

Then how much are we really spending after the bill passes?

The honest answer is Y + the amount of the bill. When we talk about health outcomes or efficiency or even making decisions about what care we can and can't afford, we need to be using real numbers and not what we wished they were.

Otherwise, let's simply pass a bill saying every has free care, free ponies and shall live forever and then just delay implantation every year. That would be the bestest reform ever!

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March 19, 2010 4:42 PM    in reply to JanglerNPL

Allow me to address it this way too.

From Josh's fp post:

Democrats have made no secret of the fact that they want to permanently repeal the law -- which is little more than making the current reality official. And pretty reasonably they say that it doesn't have anything to do with the Health Care Reform legislation since it's not like something that makes this bill cost more.

I'll agree with Josh that the doc fix has nothing to do with the HCR bill per se and it doesn't make the bill cost more per se, but it does mean that we will be actually spending that much more.

If we currently say we are going to spend X (the law under the BBA.)
And then really spend Y (the reality under the year after year doc fix).

Then how much are we really spending after the bill passes?

The honest answer is Y + the amount of the bill. When we talk about health outcomes or efficiency or even making decisions about what care we can and can't afford, we need to be using real numbers and not what we wished they were.

Otherwise, let's simply pass a bill saying everyone has free care, free ponies and shall live forever and then just delay implantation every year. That would be the bestest reform ever!

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March 19, 2010 4:42 PM    in reply to truth > spin

Damn double post. Sorry about that. :(

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March 19, 2010 7:02 PM    in reply to truth > spin

You should apologize for your fake righteousness and passive aggressive nonsense.
At least we're actually making an effort, kiddo...

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March 19, 2010 8:03 PM    in reply to cinesimon

And let's applaud the porters rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic too.

Well done, sirs!

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March 19, 2010 4:02 PM   

Bildo will be all over that fake memo tonite like white on rice . .

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March 19, 2010 4:17 PM    in reply to boycottfaux

like stu on pid

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March 19, 2010 4:03 PM   

So since this is all a hoax then in truth, all Democrats everywhere are being actively encouraged to pursue any and all opportunities to discuss as many details as possible, correct?

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kth

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March 19, 2010 4:59 PM    in reply to Rich Mason

See "Excluded middle, fallacy of"

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March 19, 2010 4:04 PM   

Josh Marshall: "A fraudulent memo leaked to the press sounds like something more out of a movie than anything that really happens in DC politics."
I don't know, Josh. Color me cynical, but the Reps are so blood-curdlingly desperate at this point...you really think something like this is beneath them? I don't.

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March 19, 2010 4:07 PM    in reply to JimmyBobby

Me neither!!

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March 19, 2010 5:19 PM    in reply to JimmyBobby

I didn't say we thought it was beneath anyone. I'm saying that in recent years this particular gambit hasn't happened. Other things have happened that I'd say are far worse. So it's not a matter of it being worse than you'd expect just not a common MO.

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March 20, 2010 3:39 PM    in reply to Josh Marshall

It's basically a variant on the faked memo scam they used to neutralize the "AWOL Bush" issue, which not only got rid of a potentially VERY harmful set of facts, but also had the fringe bennie of taking Dan Rather out of play and discouraging any other remaining reporters from getting off GOP talking points....

I'd say it's entirely in keeping with recent policy movements. Lies-too-big-to-fail have become the GOP-fellow-travellers' preferred methodology in the last few years.

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March 19, 2010 4:08 PM   

I manage a copy shop and I can tell you that this document smells to high heaven. Look at the quality: it's skewed, it has smudges and there are three lines on the right side. This all means that the scanned document is a copy (not a printout) from an aging, analog copier. The original had been stamped "draft," written on and then copied to produce what we see here.

Now ask yourself: why would someone drafting a memo make a copy of a document they have saved on their computer? If they were bringing it to a meeting to discuss, it would be a printout and not a copy. If someone in the meeting left their printout somewhere why would the person who found it make a copy and then scan the copy? It simply doesn't make sense for this to have been copied at any point.

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March 19, 2010 4:09 PM   

Could someone please list any inaccurate statements about the health care bill that are mentioned in this memo?

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March 19, 2010 4:26 PM    in reply to Rich Mason

That doesn't matter if it's a fake. It could be the most benign and accurate statement of a Democratic position, and it would still be wrong for Republicans to fake the memo. It was also a huge error for Politico to post it without confirming it. Did they learn nothing from CBS making the same mistake with the Bush national guard memos? Guess not.

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March 19, 2010 5:14 PM    in reply to ericf

Where's Dan Rather when you need him...

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March 19, 2010 10:02 PM    in reply to Rich Mason

Could someone please list any inaccurate statements about the health care bill that are mentioned in this memo?

Real simple. Since the document is falsely claimed to have come from the Democratic party, the entire thing is invalid. Nothing in it merits discussion unless the author wants to identify the correct source.

Now, I have a document here from one of your neighbors that says you plan to molest some of the kids in your neighborhood. When are you going to address that? Why haven't you offered any proof that you won't molest them?

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March 19, 2010 4:35 PM   

"The underlying fact is the Democratic leadership is going to move a doc fix, they are going to spend another $300 billion. If not, why did AMA endorse the bill?"

Can someone say "non-denial denial?" This is damn near an admission that it's fake, they faked it and they sent it out.

Might as well have said "okay, we faked it but it's true in the sense that it comports with what what we want people to believe, so, really, the question of whether or not it's fake is not relevant because it's 100% true in the only sense that matters."

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March 19, 2010 5:05 PM    in reply to The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve

Whatever you do, don't say that out loud. Your head will explode.

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March 19, 2010 4:40 PM   

Of course it's a drastic understatement to say the GOP learned nothing from Watergate, but evidently the GOP learned nothing from Watergate.

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March 19, 2010 4:52 PM   

What Dem staffer would use the phrase: "Some Republicans who are against reform..." (see on the last bullet of page 2)?

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March 19, 2010 4:54 PM   

ericF, We get that and thanks for the ethics lesson, they're always welcome BUT-I take it we can put you down for "no inaccuracies in the memo?" No problem admitting that seein' as how it "doesn't matter" and all...(wink)Also would you characterize the Dems as being forthcoming and eager to talk about the details of the healthcare bill? Just askin'

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March 19, 2010 5:11 PM    in reply to Rich Mason

You're right - there are no inaccuracies. But one still can't blame the HCR bill for something that isn't a part of the HCR bill. It's a red herring.

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March 19, 2010 5:15 PM    in reply to Rich Mason

You can read the bill on the intertubes.

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March 19, 2010 10:34 PM    in reply to Rich Mason

If the Republicans are so sure that they're lodging valid charges against the Democrats, why do they need to hide behind a fabricated memo?

I'll tell you why. Because they're slimy cowards. And so is anyone who defends them.

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AOW

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March 19, 2010 5:11 PM   

come on saying the memo doesn't matter is pretty much an admission of guilt. where's the "we wouldn't do that!"??

I smell something - too bad today's "journalists" are too lazy and stupid to acutally do some investigative reporting

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March 19, 2010 5:26 PM   

Oh don't worry, if the memo is a fake you'll see Abs, Cbs, Nbs,
CNNbs and MSNBCbs SPRING TO LIFE LIKE NOBODY'S BUSINESS!

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March 19, 2010 7:00 PM    in reply to Rich Mason

Grow up you sad child.

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March 19, 2010 7:47 PM    in reply to cinesimon

Been reading all this trash and from what I can see, he may be sad but He's the smartest guy pounding away on a keyboard here. Im with you Rich, I dont care if 47 monkeys got together and managed to produce this memo, it looks to me like the questions no Liberal will talk about. And yea, lots of trickery going on in DC these days but please dont sell those Liberals short, they are as tricky as anyone, however mostly they dont even try to hide it, thats arrogance for you, They just cant believe everyone wont suck in every word as if it were the absolute truth. Never has been and never will be. OH and seems the Libs havent managed to get their shoes on yet, and that was funny.

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March 19, 2010 10:56 PM    in reply to HawkCW4

That's it, Rich Mason. You stick up for your buddy Rich Mason. If anyone's going to push Rich Mason around, he'll have to go through Rich Mason first.

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March 20, 2010 7:46 PM    in reply to HawkCW4

Which Mason are you? I got news for you, the world ain't flat & Jesus didn't bring the dinosaur bones. You may want everybody to re-investigate & re-prove but there's no point. Just because some, unnamed source, cooks up a false document against their gov't, that doesn't mean it has to be disproved. Health care is passing & will keep getting better, no matter how many monkeys try to distract the focus. For the record, do you now or will you be receiving SS & Medicare? Your shooting yourself in the foot.

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March 19, 2010 5:28 PM   

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." -Mark Twain

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March 19, 2010 6:33 PM   

So where did the memo come from? Politico got it from somebody. Whats that Acorn frat-boy republican pimp up been up to lately?

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March 19, 2010 6:47 PM   

when Cons had their press conference, Cantor, Ryan and I forgot the other, well anyway, reporter asked them about the memo. they sloughed it off, I could tell by their responses they knew something about it, dirty dogs.

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March 19, 2010 7:22 PM   

How low will they go? Evidently down with the snakes belly for repuglicans. The party who calls themselves "Christian" and "God-fearing" and "moral majority" and all the rest of that BS and they are the cheatingest, lyingest, dirty trickiest bunch of turds in the country. What a bunch. Who elects these people?

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March 19, 2010 11:23 PM   

Hey chimpale, I don't know HawkCW but of course I appreciate the support. You could check our profiles to see I signed up TODAY. But that would be fact checking and why do that when you can make jokes. I linked here from Powerlineblog. which was quick to mention the reports that the memo was fake. We don't know that yet and all you've got on this silly site is your hopes wishes and dreams. Fake memo or not, the Dem strategy of obfuscation is real. They don't want to talk about details--AND YOU don't want to admit it. You can believe in free Doctor-in-a-box, all you want, everyone develops intellectually at their own pace and far be it from me to judge BUT-you SHOULD have the decency to be ashamed of the company you're keeping. My respect is for the naive but well meaning people who sincerely believe the government can deliver superior health care but are very uneasy about the lies the deceit and tricks being turned by the likes of Senator Ben "love you long time" Nelson and Mary "hey sailor" Landrieu. It's not so bad that you don't HAVE a clothespin for your nose, what's bad is that you don't need one.

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March 20, 2010 1:41 AM    in reply to Rich Mason

The government is not "delivering" health care. Joe Biden is not going to be sticking a tongue depressor down your throat. The bill regulates health insurance providers and service providers and provides funding for currently uninsured individuals to obtain insurance.

If, in your eyes, that means the government is delivering health care, then they've been delivering it for a long time by funding public universities that train the doctors and nurses.

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March 20, 2010 5:41 PM    in reply to Orlando

Hey Orlando, First off, I take it you agree there are no inaccuracies in this memo. The strategy is in fact to avoid discussing the details RIGHT? Are you concerned about some of the out and out bribery going on to pass this Bill. Do the kickbacks to Nebraska Florida, Louisiana Connecticut and God knows where else disturb you? I hope so. You're right about regulation. Government will be poised to take credit for anything that does NOT go wrong by pointing to their "regulation" but will be quick to dodge any responsibility for anything that DOES go wrong--THAT will be the fault of the evil doctors hospitals and insurance companies... You've been told that the real estate market is in meltdown because of evil greedy mortgage brokers and bankers right? Have you ever asked yourself why none of these evil bankers or mortgage brokers are in jail, under indictment or have had their licenses suspended or revoked? The reason they are still in business is that they jumped through every single hoop your precious regulators put them through. Did all the things they were supposed to do and didn't do all the things they were not supposed to do. AMAZING! How we STILL melted down with all the guidance and leadership from your wonderful regulators! But don't worry they'll "fix" everything (again) with some more regulation.
The nice man in the car with the free bag of candy is beckoning to you, I can't stop you from getting into the car but I'd sure like it if you didn't force me to get into the car with you. I know better and would like to have the privilege of benefiting from my experience.

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March 21, 2010 7:41 AM    in reply to Rich Mason

Wow you are kind of patronizing. Are you like that with everybody or just liberals? Bet your kids love it.

Yeah, I have thought about how regulations governing the financial industry were gutted over the past twenty years to get us into the mess we saw last year, thanks for asking. Jackass.

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March 21, 2010 12:19 PM    in reply to Orlando

Hey Orlando, Thanks for being the first to resort to name calling. The grown ups know what that means! If you don't like being patronized you might try getting your hand out of my pocket. As for the regulations being "gutted", over the last twenty years, it's kinda hard to understand how that could be since the same people who are bringing you Obamacare have been in charge during at least some of those years. But don't worry, the man in the car with the free candy has promised you there won't be any "gutting" of Obamacare regulations. A really good way for you to punish this "jackass" and all the other "jackasses" like me who don't want Obamacare is to just cut us out of all the free candy. Yeah! That'll fix us! Don't let us pay for it and don't let us have it. Keep all that free candy to yourselves! Some day(hopefully) you will mature enough to look yourself in the mirror and confront just exactly why you want(really need) to force us jackasses into the car with you--and why you need to call us "jackasses" and worse--you have to demonize us because YOU ARE GOING TO STEAL FROM US, and if we are "jackasses" then that makes your thieving, mooching parasitic ways OK. Tell me Orlando, does your elbow ever get sore from sticking your hand out all day?

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March 20, 2010 5:21 AM   

At the height of the Cold War, the propaganda from the old Soviet Union about the United States was pretty funny to listen to. Soviet broadcasts to Iron Curtain countries depicted the US as nothing but decaying cities filled with staving people dying in the streets.
The purpose of this was not hard to figure out - Soviet style Communism could not compete with America's prosperity, so they had to lie to their citizens, least they want what those in the West had.
What has been so shocking about the American health care "debate", is that Conservatives have been lying about universal health care in other countries in an outrageous fashion that would have made the old Soviet propaganda ministers proud.
Why resort to lies, and not just debate the facts? For basically the same reasons. Powerful commercial interests don't want the average citizen of the united States to see what others enjoy and demand it for themselves.
This is just more lies from the GOP.

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March 20, 2010 1:41 PM   

I saw that...he is marginalized, and not only because of his 'stand' on the the abortion language when the Nuns Union, or whatever it is and the other Catholic organizations have said the language has the Hyde Amendment intact, it is also the taint of C Street and all the dirty laundry fall-out from that. Now the question of who is subsidizing the rest of the rent for the politicians that write teeny-weeny checks for rent there is looming as well, and I think Stupak is viewed as damaged goods. Combined with his stubborness and his already caught in lies about his role at C Street (Classic Sgt.Shultz, "I know nothing!)He should be primaried against hard. I know Micheal Moore who lives in his district will bankroll a candidate. "Stupak lacks a uterus and a brain" (Moore). If the CBO has scored it well, and the other pro-life Dems, most, have climbed on board, he may as well be Gilligan and stay on his little island.

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March 20, 2010 3:55 PM    in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe

Wow, glad I scrolled down here.... lol Yeah Stupak IS being primaried, as they say. I believe that Sultanstall is her name. All good Dems should bankroll his opponent, and work to send him back home, where he can worry about non-existent threats to the unborn unfettered by public responsibilities.

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March 20, 2010 4:28 PM    in reply to CityGuy

Its just posturing on his side..his view to running for governor, to the right of anyone else, and his botched attempts at having any realistic discourse with the Leadership and the WH as he pretty much is a C Street stooge, follows their talking points, and as more of that comes out, look for ads in the summer primaries that paint him as one. he's never had any dealings in good faith and as more and more of the pro-life dems peel off of him, he looks really silly and acting like, dare I say, petulant and sour-pussed W.
Hey, did you see on HuffPost where Octomom may be kicked out of her house!!!! oops....sorry.

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March 20, 2010 6:29 PM   

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March 20, 2010 8:49 PM    in reply to Rich Mason

Hi Rich, glad to have you on board. But you do know that this is a left-of-center blog? You have to make a hard turn to the right to get to Redstate.

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March 20, 2010 8:54 PM    in reply to CityGuy

left of center? more like left of left.

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March 20, 2010 9:36 PM    in reply to jjdjjd

Well the left-of-leftists here are the ones who believe that Obama has "sold out" merely by talking to (or trying to reach agreement with some) Republicans. The left-of-centers such as myself believe that Obama is working a grand strategy that seeks permanent change for the better in America. Probably why he was elected by a solid majority to be our president.

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March 21, 2010 4:38 AM    in reply to CityGuy

it is that type of thinking that has gotten obama in trouble. his 'victory' was not about him, it was about bush. he has no chance for re-election unless, like clinton, he corrects his course after 2010 mid-term elections, which will be a disaster for his democrats. unlike clinton, he does not have the ability to change.he will be remembered like jimmy carter, we will spit out his name like it was poison.

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March 21, 2010 1:40 PM    in reply to jjdjjd

I will respectfully disagree with you on just about every point. Obama won because, yes he did represent change from the Shrub. I honestly do believe that most people who voted for Obama expected him to get our combat troops out of Iraq quickly. This was the wrong war in the wrong place. So yeah he wasn't Bush in that regard. Remember too, Obama campaigned for almost 2 years on a platform of Health Care Reform. He did. The HCR bill(s) is his attempt to keep a campaign promise. BTW: These Tea Partiers are just GOP types (Hello Dick Armey?) who didn't vote for Obama anyway, and would never vote for him. They are sore losers, most of whom cannot/will not believe that an African-American is our president.

America was indeed ready for someone-and something-different than Bush. Arguably, Obama has shown his centrist hand too early, explaining his loss of support from the left-of-left. Most reliable polls show him to still be popular among the moderate independents and center-left Democrats who have always made up his base of support. Time will tell, but I do NOT expect the 2010 elections to bear much resemblance to those of 1994. Newt and the Contract with America at least stood FOR something. The current GOP has been successfully portrayed as just the Party of No. And there's no Brady Bill to turn out the vote for the GOP this time around.

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March 21, 2010 12:39 AM   

Hi City Guy! Thanks for the welcome. I happen to live in "Western Massachusetts" otherwise known as the Portland Oregon area. So if you know anything about our politics you'll understand I'm quite used to the climate. I used to visit here when Josh was cutting his teeth on the Bush administration and thought I'd stop by. I also stopped in because I'd heard about the memo possibly being fake and I wanted to see if you guys had anything substantive. All you'all have here is your prejudices and since I've already got plenty of my own, I'm thinkin' I won't be around too much. I love debating on the internet because no one can interrupt you or distort what you or they have said because we got cut and paste and the archives right here, but, it became an addiction of mine and I'm tryin' to "quit". Besides, I've found that unfolding events are far more persuasive than my words and people need to be "ready" to change their minds anyway. "Persuasion" is way overrated (sadly) Anyway, thanks again for the friendly welcome and if ya haven't gotten over there, ya might try powerlineblog once in a while. Peace friend.

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March 21, 2010 1:49 PM    in reply to Rich Mason

Well I respect your opinions Rich, and do hope you stick around here. MOST people on this blog try to stay civil, with notable exceptions. You are point-on with the comment that "unfolding events are far more persuasive..." than mere words. (Mine or yours!) Keep it thoughtful, real and lively and I'll have your back Rich when it comes to expressing yourself on this forum!

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May 9, 2010 4:34 AM   

I like this articles very mush thank you for sharing. thermal imaging training

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June 5, 2010 11:02 PM   

Just like it's up to you to refute whether you plan to keep diddling toddlers.

So do you or not?

I'll concede - the memo detailing that you plan to diddle toddlers might be fake - but it's still up to answer the question.

Will you stop diddling toddlers?

m65 kamagra

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August 22, 2010 11:27 AM   

Thank you for the mp3 dinle information your provide.mp3 indir

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