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Poll: Independents Spread Blame For Post-Reform Violence


President Barack Obama

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A new USA Today/Gallup poll out this morning shows that more Americans blame the Democrats more than any other group when it comes to the inciting the violence and vandalism that have spread across the country in the week since health care reform became law. Fifty percent said passing the bill was a "bad thing," while 47% said it was a good thing.*

When asked about the violence, 49% of the 1,009 adults surveyed over the weekend said the "Democratic tactics" are a "major reason" for the violent incidents. Forty-six percent said conservative media was responsible, and 43% blamed the attacks on the rhetoric of Republican political leaders.

The poll suggests that Americans are warming to the Republican view of the bill and the way it was passed in the days since President Obama signed the historic legislation.

While a widely-cited USA Today/Gallup poll taken the day after the House vote on the bill showed more Americans favored the legislation than opposed it, the poll released today shows that number has flipped back to its pre-passage split.

Americans also criticize the legislative tactics Democrats used to get the bill passed. In the new poll, 53% called passage "an abuse of power" by the majority Democrats, while just 40% said the legislative measures used were "appropriate."

The poll also features more of the confusing numbers that suggest that overall, Americans don't know what's in the health care bill or how it works. Majorities said say it will raise costs and hurt the federal budget, but majorities also said it will improve health coverage and the overall health of the nation.

And though 65% said the bill "will expand the government's role too much" into the health care system, 51% said "it doesn't go far enough in regulating the health care industry" and 58% said it should have included a public option.

The contradictory numbers suggest that Democrats can still win over opponents of the bill with strong messaging. But the results blaming the post-passage violence on Democrats and criticizing the legislative tactics used to pass the law suggest that for now, Republicans are winning the message war.

Late Update
: Gallup released the full poll data on responsibility for post-reform violence this afternoon. Inside the data, which the USA Today just touched on in its larger story on the poll this morning, is evidence that the public is largely split on who's to blame. Republicans, by huge majorities, say Democratic legislative tactics incited the anti-reform vandalism and threats. Democrats, by equally large numbers, say either Republicans or conservative commentators are to blame.

Independents think that the answer is a bit more nuanced. Fifty percent say Democratic tactics are the "major factor" behind the violence, while forty percent say the major factor is either the Republicans in Washington or the conservative media.

On the issue of whether Democrats abused their power by using legislative tactics like reconciliation to pass reform, Independents come down on the side come down on the side of Republican respondents, who overwhelmingly say the Democrats went too far. Fifty-eight percent of independents said the Democratic tactics were an "abuse of power" while just 36% said the methods used by the Democratic majority were "appropriate."

Comments (112) | Join the Conversation!

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March 30, 2010 9:41 AM   

Americans only get what they need in spite of themselves. We are spoiled, vicious children.

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March 30, 2010 5:18 PM    in reply to Skybolt

The average American is a dubm ass! I used to be one of them, but thankfully I have wised up. Education and knowledge is a wonderful thing.

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March 30, 2010 9:46 AM   

It's good to know that 46% of Americans see how poisonous the conservative media can be.

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March 30, 2010 9:58 AM   

I am so sick of these polls. It makes one's head spin.......

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March 30, 2010 10:05 AM    in reply to lousgirl84

That's because they make no sense whatsoever. They prove that most Americans are total idiots and don't understand what's going on.

A few days ago, I was complaining about my Congressman for voting against the HCR bill and a friend said "I'm not going to vote for Kissel or Sue Myrick." I said "you can't vote for Kissel because he's not your Congressman." She said "he represents NC."

Mind you, this is someone who has been voting for ever and doesn't even know the difference between a Rep and a Senator and has no idea who's her congressman. Oy vey!

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March 30, 2010 10:22 AM    in reply to FreeRider

True words...... I meet up with similar idiots on a day to day basis, unfortunately some are in my own family....

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March 30, 2010 12:57 PM    in reply to lousgirl84

We all have a few. Thanksgiving is a hoot. Funny thing, our nearly 90 patriarch voted for Obama. Said McCain was too old and Palin was a joke.

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March 30, 2010 3:04 PM    in reply to Brownbagger

You wouldn't find that in my family. my sister in law told when I asked her if she was a birther - she said I don't care where he was born but I wonder why he was pal'n around with those terrorists and what's he going to do to my health care. I said well if you are getting your information from Faux News, you will never know the truth. I wanted to explain some basic facts but she wanted no part of it.

They don't want to know the truth. They just want to believe

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March 30, 2010 3:20 PM    in reply to lousgirl84

Family Values. How sweet.

Meanwhile, I just popped into Home Depot, pulling my truck next to monster truck with homemade Puck Felosi cardboard on tailgate, NRA sticker on back window, Nobama sticker on one side of the back bumber, and the obligatory Rebel flag on the other. Girth-challenged redneck drops out of the cab wearing, what else, fatigues and a frown. America America la la la la la la.

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March 30, 2010 5:20 PM    in reply to lousgirl84

Here, here

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March 30, 2010 1:26 PM    in reply to lousgirl84

polls are for the devout...the rest of us have to work! This is a push poll so the pollsters can keep their jobs!

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March 30, 2010 3:09 PM    in reply to Docb

Hell yes....exactly.

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March 30, 2010 6:55 PM    in reply to Docb

You are so correct...its just some make work to justify keeping somebody's cousin on the payroll.

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March 30, 2010 9:59 AM   

Too bad no one conducts a poll that asks simple questions about someone's knowledge of current events that the poll is asking. You know like which Administration was in office when the financial crisis happened. Who is responsible for the system melting down and so forth. It would be interesting to see if their knowledge of events are fact-based before one considers their judgments about questions they're asked relating to the conduct of members of Congress.

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March 30, 2010 12:42 PM    in reply to Beetlejuice

Aha! baseline knowledge base.

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March 30, 2010 9:59 AM   

...and 58% said it should have included a public option.

See you in November 2012, Mr. Obama.

We will Carter you.

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March 30, 2010 10:08 AM    in reply to Riesz Fischer

are you that stupid?

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NR

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March 30, 2010 1:27 PM    in reply to nova voter

Are you stupid enough to keep voting for politicians who sell you out to corporations?

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March 30, 2010 4:14 PM    in reply to NR

nobody sold me out.

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lkt

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March 30, 2010 10:24 AM    in reply to Riesz Fischer

Who are idiots like you going to recruit that can beat him? Ralph Nader? Oooh! Maybe you could convince Jane Hamster or some other firebagger to run. That ought to be fun. Ah, maybe you dolts could support Mittens or Jim Demented - Huckabee might be an interesting choice for you, but Ms. Hamster likes Norquist, so you'll have to find someone who shares his views.

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March 30, 2010 10:35 AM    in reply to lkt

Well I guess I can't blame you centrists for resorting to guilt by association-- that's all you got. Sad, really.

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March 30, 2010 11:29 AM    in reply to Riesz Fischer

Maybe you can get a purity test going - have you conferred yet with Michael Steele? It sounds like a winner!

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March 30, 2010 10:58 AM    in reply to lkt

say what you will but if howard dean ran i'd vote for him against obama. Anthony Weiner maybe, there are tons of better democrats than obama. He will win, probably easily in '12 but the dems better get out and start campaigning, hard. the republicans have been running hard since before the innauguration and have a big head start. The only reason for polls suggesting otherwise is there grandstanding gets results.

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March 30, 2010 12:33 PM    in reply to njlib

'cause you think weiner or dean would get single payer done? LOL.

either one of your candidates would be fantastic if all a president had to do was go on talk shows and rail about health care. there's a bit more to being president than that, though.

single issue voting FTL.

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March 30, 2010 3:27 PM    in reply to njlib

The law that Obama just passed is far superior in substance to the health care plan that Dean proposed in 2004.

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March 30, 2010 10:33 AM    in reply to Riesz Fischer

Oh wow, you just made me laugh out loud at your ludicrous comment! How more absurd can you be?! LMAO!

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March 30, 2010 10:00 AM   

Republicans blame the Democrats and the Democrats have a brain. Nothing really new.

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March 30, 2010 10:03 AM   

Reporting this sort of poll result as a "plurality" is wrong, because obviously the respondents were allowed to cite more than one factor as a cause of violence--so the factor that is chosen by the most people is likely to be the factor that is most commonly recognized as a factor, whether or not it people think it the most important or most blameworthy. The set of factors in the survey may be arbitrarily chosen by the pollster, or it might be based on interpretation of free-form answers, which will tend to be biased toward the simplest factor or the one that has been most talked about.

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March 30, 2010 10:04 AM   

"The poll also features more of the confusing numbers that suggest that overall, Americans don't know what's in the health care bill or how it works. Majorities said say it will raise costs and hurt the federal budget, but majorities also said it will improve health coverage and the overall health of the nation."

Go figure!!!!!!

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March 30, 2010 10:12 AM   

These polls are BULLSHIT!!! Most Americans don't know what's in the bill. Most Americans are uninformed and will believe what ever the mean stream media tells them.

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March 30, 2010 10:24 AM    in reply to ru4862

Exactly!!!

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March 30, 2010 11:19 AM    in reply to lousgirl84

DITTO!

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March 30, 2010 1:09 PM    in reply to lousgirl84

I suspect it would be more accurate to say that the people believe the LAST thing the MSM told them. So, so sad.

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March 30, 2010 10:40 AM    in reply to ru4862

Indeed this poll interpretation by TPM is also BS. The margin of error is +/- 4 points! That means the "Americans Blame Democrats For Post-Reform Violence" headline is a complete lie by whoever wrote the headline at TPM (even if they stole it from USA Today). Once again, TPM shows they fail to comprehend a poll or what a margin of error means. Yet they keep doing it over and over. What incredibly lazy Fox News reporting this story is!

Furthermore, there is nothing about the breakdown of the poll. What percent polled were Democrat vs. Republican??

TPM hits a new low with their poor, erroneous reporting of polls everyday. And TPM shows more shear arrogance and disregard for their readers every day as well by utterly failing to even attempt to correctly interpret information. It's as if their reporters think they know more when in fact they really don't have a clue about poll interpretation. Or they are just incredible lazy. Which is inexcusable.

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March 30, 2010 12:13 PM    in reply to dswx

You are absolutely correct on this. Last month, TPM's theme was "Is This The Thing That Will Derail HCR?" Now, it's "Will HCR Survive?" TPM likes to serve up the angst.

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March 30, 2010 10:13 AM   

Of course the Dems brought it on themselves. They were asking for it. Look how they were dressed!

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March 30, 2010 10:30 AM    in reply to Acewrap

well that makes at least as much sense...lol

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March 30, 2010 10:23 AM   

Anyone who thinks the Earth is less than 10,000 years old should have their vote only count as 1/5 of a vote. Or less.

Presto, no more Republican politicians.

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March 30, 2010 10:25 AM   

Am I in the Grand Canyon or is this TPM's echo chamber?

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March 30, 2010 10:25 AM   

It shows the effectiveness of the GOP propaganda channels and the ineffectiveness of the Dem's own message machine with low-information people.

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March 30, 2010 10:39 AM    in reply to jeffgee

Whatever, the Dem's majority is built on the back of "low-information people."
CNN exit poll-By level of education, the groups that voted for Obama the most were those at both ends of the spectrum — those who have no high school degree and those with a postgraduate degree.

No high school degree and those with a postgraduate degree; the two lowest-information groups out there.

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March 30, 2010 11:12 AM    in reply to SFCWallace

That's actually kinda funny.

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March 30, 2010 12:12 PM    in reply to SFCWallace

That assertion might have some credibility if you could point to the URL that supports it. While you're at it, can you find any evidence of GOP voter intelligence, low or high information be damned?

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March 30, 2010 12:58 PM    in reply to Schmed

I tried the first time...for some reason, when I add a link, my comments are "held for review"...let's see if this goes through.
http://contexts.org/colorline/2008/11/06/14-exit-poll-statistics-about-obama%E2%80%99s-victory/

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March 30, 2010 1:47 PM    in reply to SFCWallace

I am still not convinced. I accept the premise regarding level of education and support for Obama 2008. Now, please show me the statistics demonstrating the link between level of education and level of "information awareness".

This could be measured in several ways, but here is how I would do it: ask the responder how many hours a week do they spend watching or reading the news or news-like programming. And is this time spend perusing different sources or in the same place (e.g. Fox News). Also does this person do any independent research on candidates on their own or do they rely on the information put forth in their opponents' advertisements (TV, radio, mail, etc.). Then compare these findings from each strata to the sample as a whole and see if there is a significant departure from the mean.

In the end, I think you would find a small but not necessarily conclusive relationship between level of education and engagement in the political process. The problem lies in the old maxim "correlation does not imply causation", meaning that even *if* a link is found to support your assertion there may be another explanation.

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March 30, 2010 2:04 PM    in reply to subzer0epsil0n

Ah, but you confuse intelligence with "information awareness." Those with no high school diploma don't care, and get their political news from "Rock the Vote" commercials during reruns of "Tool Academy 17." Those with postgraduate degrees assume they already know everything, and disregard any new information.

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March 30, 2010 4:26 PM    in reply to SFCWallace

I am not confusing these two at all. I responded with a very scientific, nonbiased, method to verify this claim. All I ask is a link to a scientific, nonpartisan, non-biased organization (i.e. NOT Fox News) that demonstrates your previous assumption. Until such time that information is made available, I will regard your assertion as mere conjecture and therefore your entire claim is suspect.

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March 30, 2010 4:08 PM    in reply to SFCWallace

Level of education as proof of level of information? Can't wait to see your empirical demonstration of this....

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March 30, 2010 1:27 PM    in reply to Schmed

As for your question about the information level of GOP voters:
You need to make a couple of assumtions. First, we must assume that all voters who did not vote for Obama are "GOP voters." Second, we must also agree that the two categories (no high school diploma and post graduate degree)are truely "low-information people." Finally we must assume that CNN's exit polling was an acurate representation of the electorate at large. Accepting those assumtions, since the low-information people were most likely to vote for Obama, the inverse must also be true; high-information voters were least likely to vote for Obama. Since those least likely to vote for Obama were most likely GOP voters, we can conclude that GOP voters are, most likely, high-information people. I hope that clears it up for you.

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March 30, 2010 3:18 PM    in reply to SFCWallace

And yet, as the exit polls show, Obama still won those you identify as "high information voters." Therefore, the exit polls show that, in fact, high information voters prefer Obama. The blade of bullshit cuts both ways.

I would add that "College Degree" doesn't mean much. There's a difference between a rigorous research university and the Drunken Suburban Hillbilly College of Technology. It would be interesting to see how voter preferences broke down across university rankings.

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March 30, 2010 3:30 PM    in reply to Stroszek

That would be interesting...then we'd need to decide what "ranking" to use. For instance, I attended Southern Illinois University for my undergrad studies, while not in the Princeton Review or Forbe's top 10, we did make the Playboy Top 10 Party Schools, 3 years in a row.

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March 30, 2010 4:05 PM    in reply to SFCWallace

You clear up nothing. I don't accept your assumptions: people not voting for Obama are not prima facie GOP voters. They'e non-voters with no known affiliation (until you can prove otherwise); I disagree that post-grads are low "information people" -- that's just anti-elitist bullshit without a scintilla of proof; as for CNN accuracy -- three blind men describing an elephant have a better chance at accuracy.

If this is your evidence of intelligence, you need to go back to 9th grade and take "Logic and Critical Thinking for Dummies" all over again.

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March 30, 2010 3:26 PM    in reply to SFCWallace

The problem with your assumption here is that those of us who live outside our mother's basement know that "postgraduate degree" voters aren't, as you probably assume, just Sociology professors. In fact, most of those with postgraduate degrees are scientists, doctors, lawyers, engineers, MBAs, school administrators... basically, trained professionals who are most directly exposed to and most deeply informed about what's actually occurring in key sectors of our economy.

The biggest mistake, in my opinion, is to assume that regularly watching the news, be it Fox or MSNBC or anything else, makes one a "high information voter." It might make you an expert regurgitator of your preferred party's talking points and the politics-as-sports drama that keeps Wolf Blitzer's withered heart beating, but it doesn't actually make you informed about anything important.

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March 30, 2010 3:36 PM    in reply to Stroszek

So, are you claiming Sociology professors are "low-information" people?

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March 30, 2010 3:38 PM    in reply to Stroszek

P.S. An MBA is a graduate degree.

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March 30, 2010 3:49 PM    in reply to SFCWallace

...a person can have an MBA; they can' be one.

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March 30, 2010 4:12 PM    in reply to SFCWallace

MBA is also a title: Master of Business Administration. A master is a person. Perhaps you should go back to 7th grade instead of 9th!

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March 30, 2010 10:28 AM   

When I step back and consider this array of opinions, I see how much the process in the Senate affected these views. The only way any bill could get passed in the Senate required 60 votes to invoke cloture, which put the bill at the mercy of Lieberman, Nelson, Landrieu, Lincoln and a few more who were better hidden in the background. This followed a futile effort by Baucus to compromise with Republicans who never intended to have a bill passed in any form. The result was a bad bill, in comparison to what 50 senators would have written, which would have much better represented what a majority of Americans actually want (see above: 58 % favor a public option).

By the time that all got done, the debate was so toxic that reconciliation was only able to address the worst of the grievances (such as the Cornhusker Kickback ransom that had been paid to Nelson to get his vote), because the razor thin majority in the House was crumbling.

But the real problem is the ability of a 40% party (Republicans in the Senate) to decide to bring any legislation to a standstill for whatever reason. The fact that they have chosen to do so with virtually all congressional business, and for the craven purpose of pure political gain, does argue for changing the very culture of the Senate, by changing its rules to allow a simple majority to end debate and force a vote.

I make this argument reluctantly, for I do understand the value of putting a brake on sudden and dramatic change in national policy. However, this abuse by the Republican party has been its stated strategy for almost 20 years, and it has cost our nation dearly. Having simple majority rule for most legislation only when the Republicans control the congress, or when they are in the White House, has brought dramatic change in favor of their ideology and in favor of their political supporters. Their unwillingness to allow even measured consideration of opposing points of view, even when the American public has elected the other party to leadership, must eventually raise the question: "If they cannot be persuaded to use the rules responsibly and in response to leadership of an elected majority, is it time to change the rules"?

I believe the healthcare debacle is an illustration of how the cloture rule in the Senate gives undue leverage to the worst of us and to the worst instincts within all of us. The manipulators and blackmailers in the Democratic party and the entirety of the Republican party have had the spotlight too long. A majority of Americans want full debate, followed by a majority decision. We want our problems to be addressed, not our politics.

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March 30, 2010 10:32 AM   

"Sarkozy Lays Into The U.S. On Health Care Debate
In a speech at Columbia University, French President Nicolas Sarkozy spoke about the recent American debates on health care -- sharply criticizing Americans for a lack of compassion on the issue. "Welcome to the club of states who don't turn their back on the sick and the poor," said Sarkozy. He also added: "When we look at the American debate on reforming health care, it's difficult to believe. The very fact that there should have been such a violent debate simply on the fact that the poorest of Americans should not be left out in the streets without a cent to look after them ... is something astonishing to us."

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/03/obama-tea-party-core-group-question-his-legitimacy.php?ref=fpblg

What else is there to say????

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March 30, 2010 10:42 AM    in reply to lousgirl84

"...simply on the fact that the poorest of Americans should not be left out in the streets without a cent to look after them..."

You could start by saying that that isn't what the debate was about.

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March 30, 2010 10:54 AM    in reply to SFCWallace

Yes, that is what it's about.

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March 30, 2010 11:02 AM    in reply to Riesz Fischer

Uh...the poorest of Americans already had coverage...it's called Medicaid.

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March 30, 2010 11:31 AM    in reply to SFCWallace

Yeah, fuck all those middle-class people who end up losing their homes due to medical bankruptcy! Seriously, who the fuck did they think they were, 'living the American dream' and all that.

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March 30, 2010 12:55 PM    in reply to Jack of All Tirades

Now THAT is what the debate was about (or part of it anyway, but Sarkosy did't say that.

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March 30, 2010 11:35 AM    in reply to SFCWallace

"You could start by saying that that isn't what the debate was about."

It's not the only thing the debate was about, but it certainly was a big part of it. There are lots of struggling people who don't qualify for Medicaid.

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March 30, 2010 1:00 PM    in reply to Peter H

Not the poorest of Americans as Sarkosy implies.

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March 30, 2010 10:58 AM    in reply to lousgirl84

Nothing. The man's absolutely right. But if I said I agree with Sarkozy on any right wing site, I'm "unpatriotic" and "unamerican". I hate that closemindedness we have as a country sometimes. Yes, we are the greatest country in the world. But it doesn't mean we can't learn to be even BETTER from another one!

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March 30, 2010 11:13 AM    in reply to Joekuh

Novice.

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March 30, 2010 1:02 PM    in reply to Joekuh

"I hate that closemindedness we have as a country sometimes."
As opposed to the openminded welcoming of all political views here?

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March 30, 2010 10:37 AM   

Yet another GOP office had a brick thrown through its window by a mouthbreathing
libtard inspired by the lies of TPM, left wing hate radio, and MSNBC

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March 30, 2010 10:47 AM    in reply to Barney

Lessee, that's 2 to how many? I've lost count.

BTW, you need to lose the ugly avatar. It looks like Dumbya.

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March 30, 2010 11:32 AM    in reply to Barney

Wait a minute. How come it's ok for you right-wing guys to say "libtard"? Isn't that insulting to the poor, sweet, innocent little special-needs daughter of your Dear Leader Sarah? According to her, Rahm Emanuel is a huge cruel scary monster because he called someone a "retard," so doesn't that apply to you too? Or is this one of those double-standard things you guys specialize in?

I'd refer to all of you guys as idiots, except I know some idiots, and they're really very nice people whom I wouldn't want to insult.

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March 30, 2010 4:24 PM    in reply to LegalCat

""Wait a minute. How come it's ok for you right-wing guys to say "libtard"? Isn't that insulting to the poor, sweet, innocent little special-needs daughter of your Dear Leader""

...ummm...no...how did you make that connection, libtard?

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March 30, 2010 4:48 PM    in reply to Barney

We know you are too stupid to understand an explanation, so we won't waste any time trying.

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March 30, 2010 5:13 PM    in reply to Barney

'daughter...' maybe they confused her with Dick Cheney's daughter.

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March 30, 2010 2:49 PM    in reply to Barney

Silly librul walksupright peoples. Rules different for Repugs. Princess Palin decide who can say what. She bring her "retard baby" on hip for prop. "Libtard", har har har, much clever. "Teatard" much evil. See? Want Ugg scratch on rock for you remember? Har har har.

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March 30, 2010 10:49 AM   

This is froth. Polls 1 week out from passage are meaningless.

Democrats MAY (or may not) have a messaging problem on HCR; it certainly fits the pattern. But this poll doesn't convince me one way or the other.

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March 30, 2010 10:59 AM    in reply to agio

Yeah, the only thing it tells you for sure at this point is so many people are totally clueless about what they were asked about.

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March 30, 2010 10:49 AM   

First of all, there's no "violence". Violence is border towns in Mexico, not scary telephone threats or random shots breaking windows but not penetrating the blinds.

Violence is also making sick people wait 4 years for something they deserve today. All in the name of Corporate America.

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March 30, 2010 3:08 PM    in reply to Cornelius

Get back on your meds sister

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March 30, 2010 11:01 AM   

Of course the Democrats brought the violence on themselves. How dare they try to provide millions of uninsured Americans with basic health care. Shame on them for governing and thinking about the less fortunate among us.

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March 30, 2010 11:06 AM   

And 49% blame the sexual assault of a woman on the clothes she was wearing. Morons!

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March 30, 2010 11:09 AM   

The glorious result of an ignorant and uniformed citizenry. Keep up the great work corporate media and the corporate geisha's on hate radio. We at least we chant we're #1 about something.
We're number #1 in easily mislead morons!!!

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March 30, 2010 11:15 AM   

When asked about the violence, 49% of the 1,009 adults surveyed over the weekend said the "Democratic tactics" are a "major reason" for the violent incidents. Forty-six percent said conservative media was responsible, and 43% blamed the attacks on Republican political leaders. [emphasis my own]

This is rather poorly drafted. Does it mean "43% of respondents assigned the blame for the violence to Republican political leaders who had been attacking Democrats" or "there have been attacks on Republican political leaders and 43% of respondents laid the blame for violence against Democratic politicians on these attacks against Republicans?" I suspect that it was the former that was intended, but the sentence as it is currently constructed is ambiguous. It probably should read "... and 43% pointed to remarks made by Republican political leaders" or some such.

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March 30, 2010 11:17 AM   

How come you never hear this from republicans . .

From the same poll:

51% say the bill doesn't go far enough in reforming healthcare

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March 30, 2010 11:28 AM    in reply to boycottfaux

Exactly!

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March 30, 2010 11:29 AM    in reply to boycottfaux

51% say the bill doesn't go far enough in reforming healthcare

Now you're on to something. Taking 12 months to provide nothing but marginal legislation while calling it a "first step". Have never seen so many educated well dressed cowards in one place at the same time.

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March 30, 2010 11:25 AM   

Does anyone else here feel that this country is too willfully ignorant, uneducated, and just plain stupid to be considered one of the 'developed nations'?

To wit:

* We join Iran and Russia in our willingness to execute children; our infant mortality is far below that of other developed nations;
* We incarcerate 2% of our populace - a disproportionate of them minority;
* Our scientific, math, geography, and history scores for our students place well below that of other countries; and
* Cuba probably has a literacy rate than we do.

This country doesn't deserve Obama - it deserves Sarah Palin.

Seriously, this is so fucking depressing, I'm seriously considering a move to Canada.

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March 30, 2010 11:32 AM    in reply to Jack of All Tirades

I feel your pain......

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March 30, 2010 11:44 AM    in reply to lousgirl84

That's the first time I ever posted anything with that sentiment. I'm starting to think it's easier to change countries than it is the culture.

Over this past year, I've read a book my uncle (who recently passed away) left me: "The Dream and the Glory - A Narrative History of America from 1932 to 1972." The parallels between Obama and Roosevelt are absolutely astounding - Roosevelt and his new deal being called 'socialist' and 'right out of Marx's Communist Manifesto', rumors of Roosevelt secretly being a Jew, the upper class that directly benefited from Roosevelt's saving of the stock market working to repeal many of the safeguard's Roosevelt introduced, etc.

Read Clyde Prestowitz's "Rogue Nation" and "Three Billion New Capitalists". These are books from a former Reagan Administration official - he chastises America's "Do as we say, not as we do" approach to foreign policy and trade deals. In the second book, he also points up how American is quickly becoming eclipsed by India and China because it's considered 'socialist' to have an economic competitiveness policy. He also talks about how RCA, IBM, and Boeing - and other companies that were at one point leaders in their respective industries - got huge assists from the U.S. government because leadership at the time felt we needed to be competitive in these areas.

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March 30, 2010 3:43 PM    in reply to Jack of All Tirades

"That's the first time I ever posted anything with that sentiment. I'm starting to think it's easier to change countries than it is the culture."

I'll spring for the bus ticket...Canada or Mexico?

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March 30, 2010 5:22 PM    in reply to SFCWallace

Tell you what; read the books, then let me know what of the points I listed you can refute. Tell me about how we're all socialist now, but all of our development of 20th century when we became a superpower had no government intervention.

Tell me how much better we'd all be if we just told the banks to fuck themselves - we might usher in a worldwide depression, but goddamit, we'd be free of the yoke of socialism.

Tell me how we're better off now that Texas has booted Thomas Jefferson from their schoolbooks.

Tell me how we're going to compete with China and India while we can't even get a majority of people in this country to understand, let alone accept evolution.

Tell me how this country is better off with a populace that always votes against its long-term interests.

Tell me how you rose up against Bush's expansion of Medicare in 2003 as an unnecessary expansion of the government's role in our healthcare.

I'd love to hear from you, but I have a feeling you're proud of your ignorance. The president is trying to drag this country into modernity - but a fair amount of the populace wishes to stay in ignorant squalor with the outmoded concept of American exceptionalism and how God 'chose our country'.

Jesus-Christ-on-a-pogo-stick, fucking grow-up.

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March 30, 2010 11:42 AM    in reply to Jack of All Tirades

You're correct, IMHO. Except for the part about Obama. I think we deserve better. I'd prefer a leader. Obama offers lots of hope but little audacity.

One thing to add to your list; our government is about to authorize Pakistan the use our military drones - you know, to fight the bad guys, all 300 of them. That way we don't have to continue slaughtering innocent Afgans. Now Pakistan can do it for us.

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March 30, 2010 3:15 PM    in reply to Cornelius

Curious.....who do you think would have been better????McCain??? Hillary?

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March 30, 2010 11:28 AM   

All these results are within the margin of error.

Add to that the fact that most Americans couldn't tell you anything about this bill, makes these polls even more worthless. All they do is give you a general picture of how evenly split the country is between Democrats and Republicans, those who lean left and those who lean right. Neither side listens to the other side, and live in parallel worlds.

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March 30, 2010 11:52 AM   

49% of the 1,009 adults surveyed over the weekend said the "Democratic tactics" are a "major reason" for the violent incidents.

I'm not sure how the question was worded, but that response does make sense. "Democratic tactics" probably were the major reason for the violent incidents--in the twisted, addled minds of the sort of people who would commit such acts. It doesn't necessarily mean that they were valid reasons, but that's probably the reason most often given by the perpetrators.

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March 30, 2010 12:21 PM   

i don't believe in polls. there are too many variables. i always wonder how fair they are. who was polled? what is their gender? race? whre do they live? what is their political affiliation? the result of this poll tells me that the people questioned were predominately whie republicans

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March 30, 2010 1:26 PM   

Never, ever underestimate the stupidity of the American people...especially when they are worked-over by a corporate media that serves as stenographer for the GOP.

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March 30, 2010 2:48 PM    in reply to darkrhyme

Silly librul walksupright peoples. Rules different for Repugs. Princess Palin decide who can say what. She bring her "retard baby" on hip for prop. "Libtard", har har har, much clever. "Teatard" much evil. See? Want Ugg scratch on rock for you remember? Har har har.

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March 30, 2010 1:34 PM   

This tells you more about the polling, than the politics!

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March 30, 2010 1:47 PM    in reply to GTFOOH

Really? What does it tell you?

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March 30, 2010 3:07 PM    in reply to kgb999

Basically, you don't actually get wild shifts in opinion like this over the course of two weeks. You get them from drawing from a different composition of your respondent pool. USA Today does this all the time with the polls they commission from Gallup. They didn't like the results they got last week, so they tweaked the respondent screen and got something that pushed their preferred narrative.

USA Today also had McCain trouncing Obama in '08 election, if that tells you anything.

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March 30, 2010 2:50 PM   

USA Today/Gallup sucks and their results are always wildly erratic. This is the pollster that had McCain running away with the '08 election. It's safe to assume the bill still gets plurality opposition, and it's always safe to ignore USA Today.

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March 30, 2010 2:58 PM   

I've always insisted that 85% of Americans are idiots. Nothing good can ever happen unless intelligent folks can win over a good portion of those idiots.

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March 30, 2010 2:59 PM   

Well, the majority of Americans are also idiots.

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March 30, 2010 4:19 PM   

I'm beginning to think that any poll, to be considered valid, should have a sample size in the 5 digits. This poll found, somehow, the only group of people in the country who blame Dems for the violence, hate that they passed the bill, but also wanted a public option in large numbers. this is just ridiculous on its face. I wouldn't be surprised actually if these results weren't entirely made up.

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March 30, 2010 4:52 PM    in reply to onceler

Is this assertion based on your deep understanding of statistics and rigorous analysis? Didn't think so.

There are two real issues that are relevant: How is the question phrased, and how do you pick your respondents. You could have a sample size of over a million, and if your questions are slanted or your sample is slanted the results will be tainted.

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des

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March 30, 2010 6:37 PM   

I suppose if you're determined to prevent the majority party from governing and it goes ahead and governs, then, well yes, Democrats are to blame for the violence.
Just as abused spouses are to blame for being beaten...

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March 30, 2010 11:44 PM   

'And though 65% said the bill "will expand the government's role too much" into the health care system, 51% said "it doesn't go far enough in regulating the health care industry" and 58% said it should have included a public option.'

So at least 13% of Americans are schizophrenics. I seem to recall that another recent poll found that 13% of Americans identify themselves as Tea-partiers.

Same 13%?

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March 31, 2010 12:16 AM   

Or the alternative is to recognize that no one has done a good job of making the case for the need for action, the steps that will make up the action plan that is proposed, and what effect those steps will have in solving the needs outlined in the first case.

Think about it. At first, the story from the White House was how we needed to bend the curve. That was the way HCR was presented at first. Once it was established that the political will didn't exist for those choices to be made, the plan pivoted to being designed to require and subsidize coverage for as many currently uninsured as possible.

That's a worthy goal, but it isn't the goal that was first laid out. I don't think anyone took the time to tell the public that the end goal was changing; I understand it all happened in the breaches, but that doesn't excuse not making the case as clearly and honestly as possible.

And the hate-fest on either side only adds to the confusion. The people on this site might think the other side started it or is worse, but read through some of these comments someday and if you are honest, you'll admit that they are just as mean-spirited as anything that Rush or Beck say. Same same.

Golden rule, people.

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March 31, 2010 7:47 AM   

"58% said it should have included a public option"
"65% said the bill "will expand the government's role too much" into the health care system, 51% said "it doesn't go far enough in regulating the health care industry"

What this poll tells me is that the respondants are utterly bewildered. The Republicans have done a hell of a job at creating perceptions. They've got just one itsy bitsy problem. The bill is now a reality and it will have real effects on real people.

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March 31, 2010 7:55 AM   

Really... I think this poll is screwy. It doesn't make any sense.

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