
When President Obama's Debt Commission holds its first meeting Tuesday at 10 a.m. they will consider nothing too sacred to be examined for cuts -- even the new health care reform law, the leaders said.
Former Clinton White House chief of staff Erskine Bowles (D) and former Sen. Alan Simpson (R) said on "Fox News Sunday" they can't be limited if Obama really wants to make the tough choices to cut the deficit significantly.
Simpson said the commission will use "only" Congressional Budget Office figures and not use their own projections to estimate the future cost of Social Security and health care.
"We're not going to say we're going to grow our way out of this. Hell, we could have double growth for 30 years and never grow our way out of this. And hopefully we can all say, this is where we are," Simpson said. "Then if we can do that -- and that's my naive objective -- then we can start letting blood. Somebody said, well, is the new health care bill off the table? I said, nothing is off the table, absolutely nothing."
Bowles agreed with Simpson and said he wants to go after spending first. "Once we have gotten real numbers out there, let's see if we can persuade people to trust each other, come together, and really take some of these tough stands to bring down spending," he said. "I think we have to go after everything. Everything has to be on the table, whether it's revenue or spending."
Simpson's health care remark raised some eyebrows but the White House said the group is free to examine everything.
"The president has been clear from the beginning that he will not impose preconditions on the commission as it considers a set of comprehensive, bipartisan recommendations," a White House aide told me this morning.
The commission is made up of 10 Democrats and 8 Republicans appointed by Congress. Obama will greet the full commission at 9:30 a.m. Tuesday and the meeting will formally come to order at 10. Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke will speak, along with Office of Management and Budget Director Peter Orszag, and former Congressional Budget Office directors Rudy Penner and Robert Reischauer.
Fox's Chris Wallace pressed the chairmen if they felt bound by Obama's pledge not to raise taxes on people earning less than $200,000 per year and they both said they will consider any and all options. Simpson said it is "madness" that "old cats" in their 70s and 80s are not affected "in one whiff" by Social Security changes.
Bowles dismissed worries from Progressive Caucus Chairman Rep. Raul Grijalva (D-AZ) who said the commission would just "cut, cut, cut." He said the group has to cut social programs.
"If we're going to be serious about balancing the federal budget and righting this fiscal ship, then we have got to have everything on the table, and that includes the entitlement programs. We'll never get to balance unless they're on the table," he said.
Simpson also balked at GOP arguments the Dec. 1 deadline is foolhardy. Minority Leader John Boehner said the commission should be required to report before the election. He said that would only lead to politicians getting the report and then picking it apart in reelection campaigns. "What is a cop-out about reporting on December 1 to the most important thing that effects every American for the next, you know, decade? What is the cop-out about that?"
Fourteen of the 18 commission members have to approve any changes, which also are subject to a vote in Congress.
libdevil
April 26, 2010 11:01 AM
This is going to be a disaster. There's no question in my mind that Grijalva's correct. It'll be a menu of massive cuts to everything but warmongering and the police-state apparatus. And Obama will own it, because it's his debt commission. You know damned well that the one thing that won't be on the table for serious consideration is raising taxes to a level at which the programs and services this country needs and people depend on are actually sustainable. I'd be pretty stunned if they even managed to do something as mind-numbingly simple as recommending removing the cap on FICA taxes, or taxing billionaire fund managers as if their income was actually income. Or how about closing off-shoring loopholes? Nah, that stuff's too controversial, let's just cut Social Security.
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Cornelius
April 26, 2010 11:12 AM in reply to libdevil
Yes this is going to be a disaster. Get out the samurai swords and cut, cut, cut - but don't touch ANYTHING military related, military industrial complex, War on Terror, pentagon budget, private armies, etc. And is that Alan Simpson I see, one of the true Republican scumbags of all time?
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mjshep
April 26, 2010 11:13 AM in reply to libdevil
I'd really like to think you're wrong, libdevil.
Unfortunately, you're not.
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Viva!America!
April 26, 2010 11:46 AM in reply to libdevil
you do realize that they do not get the final vote right?
Funny how so many poo pooed the commission and said its all for show, now some of you are ready to jump off a cliff over their recommendations.
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chameleon
April 26, 2010 11:51 AM in reply to Viva!America!
Just like the idiots in here to jump on every headline - no matter how vague. The usual suspects. Amazing....
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FreeRider
April 26, 2010 12:22 PM in reply to Viva!America!
Come 'on. If there's a way to make it out to be a bad thing, you can count on them to find it.
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chameleon
April 26, 2010 6:14 PM in reply to FreeRider
Since David Farrar took up all that space at TPM yesterday saying nothing, I thought I'd post the Time, Inc. article on Obama which actually says something.
Barack Obama's right-wing opponents cast him as a socialist failure. His left-wing hecklers see him as an overcautious hedger. But, critics notwithstanding, the President is on a path to be a huge success by the time of November's midterm elections.
Before the jabberers on the right (What about the huge debt, the broken tax pledge, the paucity of overseas accomplishments?), the yammerers on the left (Guantánamo hasn't been closed, gays aren't serving openly in the military, and too many policies cater to business interests) and the chides in the media (POTUS and party poll numbers are down, and Washington is more partisan than ever), look at the two key metrics that underscore Obama's accomplishments. It is too early to assess the ultimate measure of victory: whether the President's actions have been prudent and beneficial, domestically and internationally. But by Election Day 2010, Obama will have soundly achieved many of his chief campaign promises while running a highly competent, scandal-free government. Not bad for a guy whose opponents (in both parties) for the White House suggested that he was too green in national life to know how to do the job — and whose presidency began in the midst of a worldwide economic crisis that demanded urgent attention and commanded much of his focus. (See "Obama's Troubled First Year: Grading Him on the Key Issues.")
Let's start with the competence Obama has shown. As he proved in the campaign, he is a master of personnel decisions, choosing people who are excellent at what they do, but also requiring that they play nicely with others. In the two most vital areas, national security and economic policy, all the President's women and men generally get along well with one another, and have had critical roles in advancing the agenda. It is true that the economics team has some rivalries, and the Administration still hasn't figured out how to overcome its collectively weak public-communications skills on the economy. But overall, the White House is populated by hard workers who are rowing in unison to advance the cause and rarely take their disagreements public through damaging leaks.
Obama's two best personnel decisions are probably the two men serving right below him: Vice President Joe Biden and White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel. Yes, Biden still falls victim to caricature as an irrepressible big mouth and is the butt of late-night jokes. And Emanuel can be overly brash and flutter nerves on Capitol Hill and among Administration allies. But Obama knew what he was getting in both men, and they have performed up to or above his expectations. With their West Wing offices across the hall from each other, Biden and Emanuel often work in tandem, each doing more heavy lifting than is publicly seen or commonly known. Obama — who proved during the campaign that he knows how to maintain control of his operation without micromanaging — sets the tone and overall goals, and then allows his Veep and chief, along with other senior advisers, to execute his plans. (See who's who in Barack Obama's White House.)
Biden has traveled extensively overseas and across the country and has helped coordinate both national security policy and congressional strategy, all while dealing with governors and mayors on the economy. Politically, he is expected to be an asset in the midterms, as he was in 2008, with white working-class voters who appreciate his homely truths and affable manner, and who still haven't warmed to Obama. (Comment on this story.)
As for Emanuel, Obama was intent on selecting a tough, competitive, savvy chief of staff, one who would be able to use the levers of power to advance an agenda through both legislation and executive action. Emanuel unexpectedly found himself in the spotlight last week when he appeared on Charlie Rose and repeated his oft-expressed interest in one day serving as mayor of Chicago. The press flew into a frenzy, and some pundits deemed the remark an unseemly display of ambition. It was, in fact, a reminder of Emanuel's deep ties to his hometown, his reluctance to leave his job as a member of Congress to join the Administration — part of the House leadership, Emanuel was on a direct path to be the Speaker within a decade — and his willingness to bow to Obama's wishes and jettison his long-term plans in order to manage the White House. (See "Obama's One-Year Anniversary: A Mixed Scorecard.")
Emanuel's hand (and his six years of experience in the Clinton Administration) can be seen in many facets of the Administration's operational success. The White House controls the Washington and media agenda on most days, carefully coordinating with Capitol Hill and interest-group partners. Bad news is not allowed to fester. And the greatest asset, the President himself, is deployed with strategic planning and tactical nimbleness.
It's easy to forget what circumstances could be like, what problems Obama might have encountered. Think back just a few years ago, to the last time a young Democrat was swept into the White House on a message of change. Unlike Bill Clinton, especially early in his presidency, Obama has largely maintained control of his public image, preserved the majesty of the office (a job that has become harder than ever because of the toxic freak-show nature of our politico-media culture) and maintained good relations, in public and private, with the armed services brass, the intelligence community and law enforcement.
The passage of the health care bill and the pledge to help Democrats wherever possible with fundraising and political assistance has (for now at least) quieted the Capitol Hill voices that until recently were questioning the White House's competence and commitment. Control of Congress makes things easier, for sure, but so does an absence of indicted, disgraced or bungling appointees. (See what to watch at Obama's health care summit.)
Over the past 16 months, both Biden and Emanuel have expressed concern internally that Obama has been too bold, risking his presidency on big bets. But those disagreements with the President have been fleeting and mostly futile — and, as it happens, unwarranted. So far, most of Obama's big bets have paid off.
The health care bill's passage is, of course, the White House's signal achievement, and was accomplished without revealing the Administration's cognizance (thanks to internal polling and focus groups) of the legislation's stark unpopularity among the public. But beyond health care, Obama acted decisively to stop the world from going into economic depression, after inheriting a mess from his predecessor. Quibble all you wish about the dimensions of the stimulus law or the administration of TARP or the Detroit bailout, but the actions taken were professionally handled, apparently necessary and, so far, constructive. Strikingly underrated by the Washington press corps are Obama's gains on education policy, including a willingness to confront the education establishment on standards for both teachers and students. Overseas, Obama has snagged an arms-reduction deal with Russia, managed the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq exactly as promised, eliminated numerous terrorist leaders through an aggressive targeting operation and laid the groundwork for dealing with Iran and, perhaps, North Korea. (See the five immediate benefits of health reform.)
In the months ahead, the President will likely pass a financial-regulation overhaul (despite this past weekend's snags), manage the confirmation of a second Supreme Court nominee with relatively little commotion, announce the reduction of the U.S. troop level in Iraq to about 50,000, showcase the undercovered gains on education reform, take advantage of the improving economy to tout his stimulus efforts and sharpen his "Obama-Biden future vs. Bush-Cheney past" argument to help stave off massive Democratic losses in November. He also has a decent chance to pass a small-to-medium-size energy bill. True, some promises, like comprehensive immigration reform, will remain on the sidelines, but most of his major goals will be completed or well under way.
Assuming the President will need a game-changing move in the wake of any significant midterm losses, Emanuel has already played a clever bit of inside-baseball, installing his old friend and Clinton Administration ally Bruce Reed as staff director of the bipartisan deficit-reduction commission that is due to make recommendations in December. If there are big Republican electoral gains, expect the analysis from conservatives and the media to be that the country wanted a check on big spending from Washington. That overriding concern could shape the outcome of the elections more than any of Obama's accomplishments or appreciation for the job he has done thus far. The commission's proposals could then be coordinated with an "I get it" message from Obama, providing a bold opening to the second half of his term, as he sets about tackling another campaign promise: long-term deficit reduction. A difficult pledge to achieve, perhaps, but given the President's track record, it is one that shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1984460,00.html?xid=huffpo-direct#ixzz0mFN98xw5
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acriticalthinker
April 26, 2010 2:25 PM in reply to libdevil
"You know damned well that the one thing that won't be on the table for serious consideration is raising taxes to a level at which the programs and services this country needs and people depend on are actually sustainable."
THAT is damn right! Consider this from the LIBERAL Tax Policy Center:
"Washington spends more than it takes in through tax revenues, resulting in a projected budget deficit of almost $1.35 trillion in 2010, or 9 percent of GDP, according to the Congressional Budget Office. Couldn’t we get rid of the deficit by raising taxes?
No. A study we conducted at the Tax Policy Center found that Washington would have to raise taxes by almost 40 percent to reduce — not eliminate, just reduce — the deficit to 3 percent of our GDP, the 2015 goal the Obama administration set in its 2011 budget. That tax boost would mean the lowest income tax rate would jump from 10 to nearly 14 percent, and the top rate from 35 to 48 percent.
What if we raised taxes only on families with couples making more than $250,000 a year and on individuals making more than $200,000? The top two income tax rates would have to more than double, with the top rate hitting almost 77 percent, to get the deficit down to 3 percent of GDP. Such dramatic tax increases are politically untenable and still wouldn’t come close to eliminating the deficit… " http://sweetness-light.com/archive/higher-taxes-wont-eliminate-the-deficit
Not only politically untenable, but also ECONOMICALLY untenable--rates at those levels will KILL industries and jobs---but hey, at least we will have unemployment compensation that lasts 900 weeks and "free" health care!
Welcome to the COSTS of the "compassionate" liberal entitlement state under Obama and Democrats!
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north_aufzoo
April 26, 2010 11:10 AM
"[N]othing too sacred to be examined for cuts" -- except defense spending, no? If I remember correctly, Obama took the single largest source of gov't waste and spending off the table when he announced the commission. Has this changed? It would behoove Bellantoni and the good people at TPM to point this out if that's the case. Just because defense spending has fallen off MSM's & White House's radar doesn't mean TPM should pretend it doesn't exist either. Clarification, please?
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Tom
April 26, 2010 12:09 PM in reply to north_aufzoo
Do you have some sources for your statement that cutting defense was taken off the table by Obama for this commission? I didn't find anything except that the defense will not be frozen like other spending right now.
It seems everything is on the table from what I can tell.
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north_aufzoo
April 26, 2010 1:12 PM in reply to Tom
Tom, you may be right -- I was thinking of Obama's proposed 3-yr freeze on discretionary spending (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/26/obamas-spending-freeze-a_n_437017.html), which, while related to the creation of this deficit reduction comm., is not the same thing. That was where he promised that military spending was off the table. So we'll see if that same philosophy creeps into the Bowles/Simpson commission. Unfortunately, judging from the cast of characters, I am not optimistic.
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acriticalthinker
April 26, 2010 2:30 PM in reply to north_aufzoo
You could totally ELIMINATE defense spending and it would STILL leave over $700 Billion deficit. Defense spending is now between 3 - 4% of GDP. How much would you cut from Defense, from entitlements?
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Derek Stodghill
April 26, 2010 11:10 AM
I highly doubt "everything is on the table." Is the public option on the table? How about a Medicare buy in for people under 65? Both would reduce the deficit. The only things on the table are things the Republicans have wanted for years.
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Tom
April 26, 2010 12:12 PM in reply to Derek Stodghill
I think Medicare only works because it's small enough that Drs and hospitals can make up for the smaller reimbursement rates elsewhere. If too many people are on the system with such small reimbursement rates to the Drs then I don't think that will be sustainable.
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Cornelius
April 26, 2010 12:18 PM in reply to Derek Stodghill
Wow, an honest voice!
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acriticalthinker
April 26, 2010 2:33 PM in reply to Derek Stodghill
"How about a Medicare buy in for people under 65? Both would reduce the deficit."
Now THAT is as delusional as any statement could be. What EVIDENCE and HISTORY of entitlement programs do you have for that WILD assertion? Some people will believe ANYTHING.
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Derek Stodghill
April 26, 2010 4:06 PM in reply to acriticalthinker
The CBO has scored the Public Option as a deficit reducer. Medicare pays doctors a lot less than private insurance and (depending on the price of the buy in) would also reduce the deficit. More people paying money into the Medicare trust fund would defray the costs of health care over more people. It would create a large enough pool to lower the costs per individual and make Medicare close to deficit neutral (again depending on the price of the buy-in).
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acriticalthinker
April 26, 2010 4:57 PM in reply to Derek Stodghill
"The CBO has scored the Public Option as a deficit reducer."
You do realize, I hope, that CBO scores bills based on the ASSUMPTION that whatever is in the bill WILL happen. If they wrote in the bill that it would be paid for by selling one million 1 acre lots on the moon for $1,000 apiece, CBO would score that as raising $1 Trillion. What is in the bill and what will ACTUALLY happen over the next 10 - 20 years are two entirely different things. Check out the projection for Medicare or Medicaid (or ANY government program for that matter). They are ALWAYS many more times costly than projected. And those Medicare "savings"? Have you heard of the "doctor fix"? The $500 billion in Medicare savings will be "fixed" by future Congress to prevent or respond to howls of protest from senior who would be affected by those "savings" (they used to be called "draconian cuts" when any reduction in the RATE OF INCREASE was proposed by Republicans---but why bring up ancient history?)
"Medicare pays doctors a lot less than private insurance and (depending on the price of the buy in) would also reduce the deficit."
By shifting the underpayment by Medicare to private insurance and those who pay cash. Who will Medicare shift underpayments to when private insurance is put out of business?
"More people paying money into the Medicare trust fund would defray the costs of health care over more people. It would create a large enough pool to lower the costs per individual and make Medicare close to deficit neutral (again depending on the price of the buy-in)."
The price of the buy-in would have to be the cost of medical care paid by Medicare divided by the number of people in the pool (at least that is how it would have to work in the REAL world)---which would be a very large dollar amount.
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Derek Stodghill
April 27, 2010 9:45 AM in reply to acriticalthinker
First of all, the CBO is the neutral arbiter of costs. It has both under- and over-estimated legislation in the past. It's not perfect but it's the best we got. If this deficit commission is to address the deficit problems it has to choose among policies that reduce the deficit somehow. Which ones do you choose? Why the ones the CBO scores as deficit reducers. How else are you going to pick the best policies if you don't go by the CBO scores?
Secondly, not everyone paying into the Medicare buyin is going to be sick and require health care. That's how health insurance works, by defraying the cost of the sick over all those paying in which makes it relatively cheaper. If we have to apply the doc fix and raise taxes to pay for it, then that moves us closer to single payer. That's fine by me as countries with a single payer system pay less for health care as a percentage of GDP then the U.S. Of course a single payer health care system is not "on the table" for the commission now is it?
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acriticalthinker
April 28, 2010 12:07 AM in reply to Derek Stodghill
"First of all, the CBO is the neutral arbiter of costs. It has both under- and over-estimated legislation in the past."
Which is quite the point. CBO numbers are not scientific and precise guarantees of ACTUAL future costs or revenues. They merely "score" the ASSUMPTIONS they are given. Take the health care bill. Assumptions will give way to reality. Future Congresses will "improve" the original law with added "benefits" and other changes that will over the years add to the cost and reduce the revenue. Check it out in 10 years (if it is not repealed) and you will see that ObamaCare will be just as "successful" as SS and Medicare and will require a commission to come up with solutions to the massive deficits ObamaCare will generate.
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par4
April 26, 2010 3:09 PM in reply to Derek Stodghill
Absolutely. Obama has proven himself as nothing more than a Republican with a D after his name. Look at how he loves him some Arlen Specter,and Holy Joe was his mentor in the Senate.
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Tanjaoui
April 26, 2010 11:18 AM
Gee, no mention of our military budget. What a surprise.
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Given Up
April 26, 2010 11:20 AM
Yeah, in order to reduce the deficit let's cut health care, great idea, since it's not like the health care bill reduces the deficit at all.
/snark
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thecrow
April 26, 2010 11:29 AM
http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/forever-war/
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Silence
April 26, 2010 11:46 AM
I sure hope you folks thoroughly enjoyed Santa Obama's Christmas on a credit card.
Remit payment in 10 days.
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Redshift
April 26, 2010 11:50 AM
Anyone who uses the term "entitlements" is privatizing Social Security, not about cutting the deficit. Social Security is not in trouble (what other programs are on sound financial footing for the next several decades?) Medicare is financially unsustainable because it's a health care program and the entire health care system is financially unsustainable (Medicare less so than the rest of it) and the health care reform law will improve Medicare's finances.
Lumping Social Security and Medicare together and talking about "entitlements" is only done by people who want to privatize Social Security or who want to cut social programs, not by people who have an open mind about the real causes of the deficits.
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FreeRider
April 26, 2010 12:25 PM in reply to Redshift
Hey, genius! Entitlements ARE the real cause of the deficits and they do need to be reformed. It's possible to do that without privatizing social security.
Lowering the SS age to 62 was a serious mistake when people are routinely living to be 90 and current generations are having fewer kids to pay for all of those boomers.
FDR was brilliant. He set the SS age at 65 when the average life expectancy was 62.
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Susan from 29
April 26, 2010 12:57 PM in reply to FreeRider
SS age was lowered to 62 for women in 1956. They only received 75% of the retirement benefit as a result. Five years later, in 1961, it was lowered for men as well.
As the population demographics has changed, the ages have changed as well, with the 1983 Act requiring those who were born after 1960 to work until 67 in order to get full SS benefits.
The real cause of the deficits are our unfunded wars, defense spending and lack of income due to excessive tax cuts during wartime.
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human
April 26, 2010 1:14 PM in reply to FreeRider
Hey, genius! "Entitlements" are only part of the problem, and much easier to deal with than privatizers will ever lead you to believe. Bump up the retirement age some more and remove the FICA cap. End of story.
But if you can't see that wasteful and unnecessary "defense" spending is costing us billions, then you're totally naive, totally ignorant, or you work for a defense contractor.
On top of that, as noted above, big tax cuts for the wealthiest and a less progressive tax code has cost us billions as well.
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acriticalthinker
April 26, 2010 3:04 PM in reply to FreeRider
FreeRider? Is that really YOU?
Finally we totally agree on something, unless you were trying to be ironic.
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FreeRider
April 26, 2010 3:19 PM in reply to acriticalthinker
No. We don't totally agree on anything, you whack job!
I believe we need to control entitlements AND defense spending. You only want to let poor people starve.
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acriticalthinker
April 26, 2010 3:59 PM in reply to FreeRider
Gee, I guess we only PARTIALLY agree on ONE thing. Well, that's a start.
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acriticalthinker
April 26, 2010 3:01 PM in reply to Redshift
"Social Security is not in trouble.."
You need to wake up to reality. SS is ALREADY paying out more than it takes in (6 years ahead of schedule). See Social Security to See Payout Exceed Pay-In This Year in the always reliable New York Times - March 24, 2010.
"(what other programs are on sound financial footing for the next several decades?)"
Not the major entitlements (Medicare, Medicaid, to name only 2), that's for sure.
"Medicare is financially unsustainable..."
You got that much right.
"because it's a health care program and the entire health care system is financially unsustainable (Medicare less so than the rest of it) and the health care reform law will improve Medicare's finances."
As John McEnroe says: "YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS!!!!"
A cold splash of reality from the General Accounting Office:
A 2007 GAO report (don't take my word for it--see for yourself at http://www.gao.gov/special.pubs/longterm/d071261r.pdf ) stated, in a large headline “Federal Fiscal Policy Remains Unsustainable”. This is obvious to all but those who think that federal resources are unlimited (i.e. most Obama voters and most of those who comment here). Page 2 of the report says “Although Social Security is a major part of the fiscal challenge, it is far from our biggest challenge. Spending on the major federal health programs (i.e. Medicare and Medicaid) represents a much larger, faster growing, and more immediate problem.” Page 5 of the report states: “The growth in Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and interest on the debt dwarfs the growth in all other spending.” Charts in the GAO report show that by 2030 (actually earlier) Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and interest on the debt will COMPLETELY crowd out any other spending. BOOM!!! The entitlement bomb will explode.
Sorry to spoil a good fantasy with a little reality.
Do I hear libs getting out their profanity and name calling thesaurus as they try to "debunk" my FACTS??? How long will it take?
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Bruce Webb
April 26, 2010 5:39 PM in reply to acriticalthinker
Only a liar, a thief, an ignoramous, or a delusional bullshitting legal logic splitter would deny that the $2.5 trillion in Special Treasuries held in Trust for Social Security are any less real obligations backed by Full Faith and Credit of the United States than the regular Treasuries held by the Chinese Central Bank.
Which are you?
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chameleon
April 26, 2010 5:48 PM in reply to Bruce Webb
All of the above....
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acriticalthinker
April 26, 2010 10:43 PM in reply to Bruce Webb
"the $2.5 trillion in Special Treasuries held in Trust for Social Security are any less real obligations backed by Full Faith and Credit of the United States than the regular Treasuries held by the Chinese Central Bank."
Of course they are REAL OBLIGATIONS (obligations being the key word) of the federal government back by the Full Faith and Credit of the U.S.! Did I ever say that they were not? THAT is not a statement to be comforted by. It is a statement to be alarmed by. The bonds in the SS and Medicare trust funds, as I said before, are NOT cash. We would have been better off if the federal government had built a big mattress in West Virginia and put all the FICA money it collected under that mattress. As you so accurately put it, the bonds are DEBT obligations of the U.S. which the federal government will have to convert to cash by either RAISING TAXES or INCREASED BORROWING. How easy will it be for the feds to raise taxes on everybody by an additional 20% or 30%? And who will lend money to the U.S. on its "full faith and credit" when the national debt is more than 100% of GDP and is in excess of $20 TRILLION by the end of THIS decade. There is already talk of the U.S.'s credit rating being downgraded and of the Chinese standing on the sidelines instead of buying our debt.
The bonds are backed by the "full faith and credit" of the U.S.---but there is a practical and political limit to how much the U.S. and tax and borrow to make good on its entitlement commitments. The only other option will be to sell the Grand Canyon and selling naming rights to federal buildings. How about the Jimmy Dean Pork Sausage Capitol Building? That could raise a few million dollars a year. What happens when the U.S. becomes Greece? Who will bail out the U.S. when that happens? No one.
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Bruce Webb
April 26, 2010 11:26 PM in reply to acriticalthinker
Your dollars in your money market fund are not cash either. The notion that the world operates like Gringottss Bank is a fantasy. Not only is the dollar in your hand only what the Paulites would call 'fiat currency' any form of 'investment' you would put it into is equally fictional.
Buy flint points and that new fangled iron cutting blade. Becauset all else is just social agreement to let you keep your stuff.
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Kevin Sutton
April 26, 2010 1:00 PM
Entitlements are no more the REAL cause of deificts than the armed forces budget, stimulus/bailouts, or tax cuts. I don't see any reason they can't be reformed but some reforms and cuts are more deserving than others.
Anyway, the commission will neither accomplish jack squat, nor will it be a political liability. Everything they come up with would still have to be passed anyway. This is just a political fig leaf to particularly loud senators.
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human
April 26, 2010 1:15 PM in reply to Kevin Sutton
Entitlements are no more the REAL cause of deificts than the armed forces budget, stimulus/bailouts, or tax cuts.
Bingo, seconded.
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FreeRider
April 26, 2010 1:35 PM in reply to human
You would second a bullshit lie that TARP and the stimulus are equally responsible for the deficit, wouldn't you?
The TARP was a one-time thing that will cost the government $89B--a pittance and prevented the collapse of the financial sector.
Stimulus helped save us from another Great Depression and will put more back into the treasury than it took out of it. It's basic Keynesian economics. The same kind FDR used.
But keep high-fiving clueless right-wing talking points.
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Bruce Webb
April 26, 2010 6:52 PM in reply to FreeRider
The irony here is that all your attacks on Entitlements stem from the same wingnut talking points.
Google 'butler germanis Leninist strategy' and understand why I am 'laughing in your general direction'. Then maybe you can Google 'useful tool'.
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FreeRider
April 26, 2010 9:24 PM in reply to Bruce Webb
The irony here is that you're so fucking dumb you think I'm attacking entitlements!
One of the main Democratic talking points for the necessity of HCR was because it would make Medicare more solvent and extend the life of Medicare. The president and every liberal economist talks about the need to slow the growth of Medicare and other entitlements.
But in your fucked-up mind, that amounts to an attack on entitlements.
Dumbass nut job!
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FreeRider
April 26, 2010 1:23 PM in reply to Kevin Sutton
Last year, SS, Medicare & Medicaid accounted for 39% of the federal budget. Defense was 23% (which is way too much, IMO).
However, entitlement spending is growing at an unsustainable rate. SS spending increased by $160B in five years. Medicare spending increased $160B in TWO YEARS!
The military budget definitely needs to be cut but it is NOT growing anywhere near the rate of entitlements.
Those who left who insist that entitlements are not a problem are as full of shit as folks on the right who say that defense spending is not a problem. We are never going to solve this problem as long as both sides refuse to deal with reality.
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Matt Jones
April 26, 2010 1:43 PM in reply to FreeRider
Somewhat convenient of you to leave out the fact that SS, Medicare and Medicaid all have specific tax revenue streams that cover their costs, whereas the military budget is taken from the general revenue pool.
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FreeRider
April 26, 2010 1:55 PM in reply to Matt Jones
You're kidding, right? The tax revenues are not sufficient to cover SS, Medicare and Medicaid! Revenues are declining whereas entitlement spending is increasing at an unsustainable rate.
You're pretending that ONLY the things you don't like are problematic. We can and must cut defense spending. But unless we take the defense budget down to 0%, we can't solve the budget problems on that alone.
But keep pretending.
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acriticalthinker
April 26, 2010 4:05 PM in reply to FreeRider
Free Rider
That can't REALLY be you, can it?! I have never seen such common sense and reality intrude your comments before. Have you been watching Fox News on the sly?
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acriticalthinker
April 26, 2010 4:10 PM in reply to acriticalthinker
Ooops! I missed the second part of your reply about taking the defense budget down to zero. It really is you, and you only had, in the words of the old Pink Floyd song, a "momentary lapse of reason." Carry on.
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FreeRider
April 26, 2010 4:24 PM in reply to acriticalthinker
Bite me.
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acriticalthinker
April 26, 2010 5:04 PM in reply to FreeRider
"Bite me."
I will have to add that intelligent response to my ever expanding book of substance free liberal come backs.
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FreeRider
April 26, 2010 5:50 PM in reply to acriticalthinker
Add this one, too: Up Yours.
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chameleon
April 27, 2010 1:34 PM in reply to FreeRider
Hey Free Rider. What do you know about Elaine Marshall who's running for senator in NC???
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FreeRider
April 27, 2010 4:55 PM in reply to chameleon
She's been the Sec of State for a decade and has run for the Senate nomination once before and lost. She's a pretty good democrat but a pretty lousy candidate.
I'll support whoever wins the primary but I think Cal Cunningham stacks up much better against Burr.
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chameleon
April 27, 2010 5:40 PM in reply to FreeRider
Thanks I know you are to go to person when it comes to politics and the individual races.
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Bruce Webb
April 26, 2010 6:01 PM in reply to FreeRider
Blow me.
Social Security can be secured for the next 18 years by an immediate increase of 0.3% of payroll per Social Security numbers, a third less using CBO numbers. Which former figure works out to about $1.50 a week in reduced take home per week for the median income household ($50k). if and only if the economy performs down to the Trustees Intermediate Cost alternative than a series of 0.2% FICA increases, a fraction of projected Real Wage increases, would be needed starting in 2026 and ending 10 years later.
If you actual knew anything more than the ability to launch ad homs. Dude you are punching well over your weight class here, take your own advice and STFU. Because you are just embarrassing yourself here, it is like wearing a t-shirt with a logo "I am with Moran" with an arrow pointing up.
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acriticalthinker
April 26, 2010 11:07 PM in reply to Bruce Webb
"If you actual knew anything more than the ability to launch ad homs."
Read FreeRiders comments. Clearly he has no facts or rational arguments---only ad hominems and profanity.
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acriticalthinker
April 26, 2010 11:14 PM in reply to Bruce Webb
"Social Security can be secured for the next 18 years by an immediate increase of 0.3% of payroll per Social Security numbers, a third less using CBO numbers."
Who is saying that? I am willing to be educated. Links please (not the Daily Kos, CAP, or HuffPo, though). If it were THAT easy, it seems to me that it would have been done already. $1.50 a week? I wouldn't think there would be much opposition to that.
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Bruce Webb
April 26, 2010 11:51 PM in reply to acriticalthinker
Google 'RealSocialSecurityFix' or 'northwest plan for a real social security fix' or just 'NW Plan'.
We use Social Security Trustees own numbers to show what a payroll tax only fix would look like. And have run the numbers past the big time people in DC. They work.
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acriticalthinker
April 26, 2010 11:57 PM in reply to Bruce Webb
Thank you. I will check them out.
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acriticalthinker
April 26, 2010 3:38 PM in reply to Matt Jones
"Somewhat convenient of you to leave out the fact that SS, Medicare and Medicaid all have specific tax revenue streams that cover their costs"
See my comment above -- SS is ALREADY paying out more than it is taking in and it will only get WORSE. The SS "trust fund" (which consists of special treasury bonds)is only an "asset" to the beneficiaries of SS. To the government those bonds, like all other bonds it issues are DEBT which are LIABILITIES of the government that have to be paid from tax revenues or borrowing.
Medicare is ALSO running an operating deficit (i.e. costs exceed Medicare tax revenue) and it will also get WORSE. This is widely available on the net. Also see the 2009 report of the trustees of SS and Medicare at
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/TRSUM/index.html
The Medicare "trust fund" has the same problem as the SS "trust fund". It does NOT contain any cash, only debt obligations of the U.S. that must be CONVERTED to cash by RAISING MORE taxes or MORE BORROWING. The golden goose is just about choked to death.
Whatever you are smoking, you need to stop.
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Bruce Webb
April 26, 2010 7:05 PM in reply to acriticalthinker
Dumb shit even bank deposits are not held in "cash". Which is why bank runs can take down even the largest banks.
I get the concept of 'irony' but styling yourself 'critical thinker' puts you on the other side of 'parody'. Ultimately the value of ANYTHING is backed by some combination of Full Faith and Credit and the inherent Police Powers of government. All else is Glibertarian fantasy.
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acriticalthinker
April 26, 2010 11:03 PM in reply to Bruce Webb
"Dumb shit even bank deposits are not held in "cash". Which is why bank runs can take down even the largest banks."
Of course not ALL bank deposits are held in cash----BUT they are generally backed by something of value OTHER THAN the ability to BORROW it or APPROPRIATE IT from the pockets of citizens. I think we would all agree that we would want our banks' deposits to be backed by SECURED loans or unsecured loans to borrowers who have the REAL ability to pay the loans back. If their deposits are NOT backed by assets that have real value that can be converted to cash, then we have failures of financial institutions (subprime mortgage crisis, anyone?)
"Ultimately the value of ANYTHING is backed by some combination of Full Faith and Credit and the inherent Police Powers of government."
In the REAL world, the value of bank deposits or corporate bonds are backed by more than reputation or the "full faith and credit" of the institution or corporation.
You are saying that the value of the SS and Medicare bonds is backed by the ability of the "police powers" of the federal government to coerce the extraction of ever higher taxes from its citizens and businesses and the confidence that individuals and foreign nations have in the continuing ABILITY to borrow ever increasing amounts at necessarily increasing rates of interest. What happens when annual interest on the national debt ITSELF exceeds $1 TRILLION? How much confidence do you think lenders will have in the "full faith and credit" of the U.S. THEN???
What you are talking about is a LIBERAL fantasy. Do you actually believe that there is NO LIMIT on how much the feds can extract in taxes by its police power and how much it can borrow??
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Bruce Webb
April 27, 2010 12:11 AM in reply to acriticalthinker
That is why the FDIC is closing down 3 to 5 banks per week? Because they have durable assets outside the federal guarantee?
Pull the other finger.
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acriticalthinker
April 27, 2010 12:19 AM in reply to Bruce Webb
"That is why the FDIC is closing down 3 to 5 banks per week? Because they have durable assets outside the federal guarantee?"
No, you are proving my point! It is because they DO NOT have REAL assets(whether durable or intangible assets, such as good collectible loans) with which to cover their customers' deposits.
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Tanjaoui
April 26, 2010 1:58 PM
Not going to pretend I know more about the Federal budget than I do, but a number of 'fixes' I've read about simply made sense: all earnings should be subject to SS tax (end FICA cap) and the retirement age should be raised since people today live longer.
I've also heard suggestions that the way SS and Medicare are funded has slowly changed, over the years, and that their 'trusts' (if that's accurate) are being raided to fund other things. If that's true, maybe that should be looked at.
Two taxation possibilities that might help: making income tax simpler and far more progressive (to 1950's levels) and instituting a value added tax, as in Europe.
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acriticalthinker
April 26, 2010 4:40 PM in reply to Tanjaoui
"a number of 'fixes' I've read about simply made sense: all earnings should be subject to SS tax (end FICA cap)"
To be "fair", then the benefit to those who contribute a million dollars A YEAR should ALSO be raised by a commensurate amount. Or would you remove the cap on FICA, but KEEP a cap on benefits? FDR sold SS as an "insurance" program. Dems are FINALLY outing themselves and letting it be known that SS is really a wealth redistribution welfare program (don't criticize me by charging that I am one of the "greedy" rich--I am not rich and I do not look to increase my future SS benefit by raiding money from anyone else; THAT would be greedy).
"and the retirement age should be raised since people today live longer."
THAT is reasonable---but politically unpalatable. The retirement age would have to be raised far enough out that it would not affect (make angry) anyone who is either old enough to vote or concerned enough to vote against the poor representative or Senator who votes in favor of raising the retirement age. It SHOULD be done, but if it is done it will be too little and too far out in the future.
"I've also heard suggestions that the way SS and Medicare are funded has slowly changed, over the years, and that their 'trusts' (if that's accurate) are being raided to fund other things. If that's true, maybe that should be looked at."
No change there....Congress has treated SS AND Medicare "trust funds" as their "overdraft" account for over 20 years!! (Maybe longer). All that money goes into the general fund of the U.S. Treasury and is spent faster than it comes in, leaving only I.O.U's in the "trust funds".
In the private sector, what Congress has done would be criminal.
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Tanjaoui
April 26, 2010 8:37 PM in reply to acriticalthinker
Removing a FICA cap would only affect people who aren't going to depend on welfare alone in their retirement anyway.
Of course there are democracies that stagger on in spite of gaping inequality (India and Jamaica spring to mind; there are others)...but do we really want to model ourselves on that model?
Sweden, Denmark, Germany...these are countries that manage to balance free markets with social welfare. Social Democratic/Christian Democratic parties on the Continent have it right.
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acriticalthinker
April 27, 2010 12:15 AM in reply to Tanjaoui
"Removing a FICA cap would only affect people who aren't going to depend on welfare alone in their retirement anyway."
Well, what you are saying is at least honest. FDR sold SS as a universal insurance program---everyone pays in and everyone receives in their old age or disability. That was the bait, what you are proposing is the "switch" (there is always a switch with every good con)---SS as a means tested welfare program. Pay in through the nose if you are middle class or above, and receive nothing if you make too much or save too much so that you don't "need" the SS money in your old age.
I guess that is the new "fairness" standard we can expect. And no, I am not saying this because I am one of the "rich"--I will definitely need my SS benefits when (if) I retire at age 70 or higher. I just don't think it is right for me to expect the rich to fund my SS and for them to get nothing back. That would sound "greedy" of me to think that way. What do you think?
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Tanjaoui
April 27, 2010 3:38 PM in reply to acriticalthinker
What can I say? That does seem fair, to me: pay in proportion to your means, receive in proportion to your needs. And noone gets nothing, even the very rich would get something back. I would also be afraid that if there weren't caps on benefits, we'd end up in the same hole we're in now. Again, I'm no expert on how this stuff works, just guessing.
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Tanjaoui
April 26, 2010 2:04 PM
Most military spending doesn't really make us safer. The military-industrial complex Eisenhower warned us about will fight cuts tooth and nail, however, fanning public anxiety as a way to preserve their fiefdom.
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acriticalthinker
April 27, 2010 12:25 AM in reply to Tanjaoui
"Most military spending doesn't really make us safer."
Really, which parts or how much would you cut and still keep us safe? You know, back in the 1800's---when we were protected by two pretty big oceans, defense spending was generally the single biggest spending item in the federal budget. Providing for the "common defense" actually IS one of the explicit constitutional responsibilities of the federal government, and the last time I looked there ARE some countries and groups that do not like us---even after Obama the "Prince of Peace" was elected and apologized to all the world for the evils of Bush.
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Tanjaoui
April 27, 2010 3:49 PM in reply to acriticalthinker
Again, no military man here, but I'm extremely suspicious of claims that the whole world is out to get us. How easy would it be for some militant Islamic nut case to buy a shotgun and take out a dozen people in a shopping mall? But it isn't happening. There is just so much groupthink when it comes to military investment and strategy, is my take.
No, what I sort of believe is all this high tech equipment is really a huge industry, and people make gads of money off it - and that's the primary motivation behind a lot of our funding. Military types don't want that to end.
I'm not a pacifist, and I do think we have to keep a standing army and invest in hardware. But our interventions in foreign countries probably have the effect of pissing a lot of people off, and that's it. They aren't making us safer.
The other factor is oil and strategic, but that calls for other solutions. We should be working in emergency mode to find alternative sources of energy and investing in public transpo infrastructure.
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OhioGuy
April 26, 2010 2:08 PM
I can't believe people are freaking out that a commission appointed by a Democratic president is going to examine way to reduce the defecit.
What do you propose as an alternative? We just pretend there's no defecit problem? Or we wait until the next Republican president can appoint his own commission?
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Tanjaoui
April 26, 2010 2:57 PM
Looks interesting...
http://www.fiscalsustainability.org/
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Silence
April 26, 2010 2:58 PM
Obama, please don't cut the deficit! You can't. You just can't.
It is so "hateful and racist" to call for spending controls and a reduction in unsustainable debt. :)
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Marinus van der Lubbe
April 26, 2010 4:38 PM in reply to Silence
...still youre humor adverse. No wonder no one answers your sorry ass posts. and if you weren't such a chickenshit, i could have choked you out long ago. post alone little man...post alone...
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Silence
April 26, 2010 6:48 PM in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe
Memorial day, my commie friend.
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Marinus van der Lubbe
April 26, 2010 7:09 PM in reply to Silence
No thanks...you have already proven what a craven little chickenshit you are and would fold like a lawn chair if you actually were in the same room with Lousgirl let alone me, so give up. Youre the most risk adverse piece of shit on here, and your constant verbal smirk is a dead end. As if I would prowl Annapolis looking for your needle dick in a haystack?
I could give a flying fuck for your 'birkenstock commie' harangue too...it cuts no ice, just as your manhood cuts no ice. You never served, you dont support anything but racist, country hating rhetoric, teabagger shit first, and you will always be a selfish tax cheating degenerate. Bye Bye, heuvos pequenos...
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Marinus van der Lubbe
April 26, 2010 7:34 PM in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe
btw, CHICKENSHIT...if I was up there, you would never see it coming. So think of that when you have bilked someone and ripped them off, which I'm sure is your common practice as a businessman, or whatever you do with your kiddie-porn riddled PC/software business, and youre crackin'claws...might be next to you.... ;)~
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expat46
April 26, 2010 8:29 PM in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe
LOL..Glad to have you back.
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chameleon
April 26, 2010 9:17 PM in reply to expat46
Isn't that the truth.....some folks are irreplaceable....
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RocketEngineer
April 27, 2010 12:03 AM in reply to expat46
Second!
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Silence
April 26, 2010 8:54 PM in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe
I accept your forfeiture.
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RocketEngineer
April 27, 2010 12:05 AM in reply to Silence
How long ago did you forfeit your manhood?
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Marinus van der Lubbe
April 27, 2010 12:11 AM in reply to Silence
Hahahahahahahaa...CHICKENSHIT.
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acriticalthinker
April 27, 2010 12:34 AM in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe
Marinus and FreeRider and anyone else whose "foot" this "shoe" fits:
Name-calling is the “last refuge of the intellectually vapid, and those who cannot win an argument with logical and coherent thought.”
“The left cannot win their arguments with facts or logic so they invariably resort to insults, ad hominem attacks, political correctness, fear-mongering, or just plain profanity. Exactly the kind of government you get in leftist regimes around the world—repressive, insulting, fear-inducing, unfair, and tyrannical.”
If you MUST use name-calling and profanity, go ahead. They reflect much more on the one who employs them than on their intended targets.
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Marinus van der Lubbe
April 27, 2010 12:41 AM in reply to acriticalthinker
Shut the Fuck Up. Now that I have qualified your silly and whining pussyisms, why not go back to your regular programming of 'How to Cath a Predator' and thanking Jesus you didnt follow thru in that chat room conversation because Mom had to use the car to play Mah-Jhong.
Also, change your name to AssHat. It fits better.
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Marinus van der Lubbe
April 27, 2010 12:45 AM in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe
Oh yes, and drop the 'let's please stay above the fray, old chap, and stop this atavistic behavior...not sporting'....
Bullshit. It's tiresome, boring, pedestrian and an insult to people who understand how to use the word 'fuck' properly.
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acriticalthinker
April 27, 2010 12:57 AM in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe
I see, and everyone else here sees, that the "shoe" fits you perfectly! Anyone else want to try on the "shoe"?
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Marinus van der Lubbe
April 27, 2010 1:54 AM in reply to acriticalthinker
after or before I take it out of your silly ass?
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FreeRider
April 27, 2010 4:56 PM in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe
Marinus, I love you, man! Where have you been?
Have you seen Lousgirl?
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Marinus van der Lubbe
April 27, 2010 7:31 PM in reply to FreeRider
Last I saw they were swarming on her, hundreds of them, like they did Jim Bowie and she went down fighting...her last words were.."..she's still only a half governor!"
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Ugg the Repug
April 28, 2010 9:02 AM in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe
Ugg family invent shoe. Not need shoe for walking. Feet tough. We have pompous tribe member name Acrit. We invent shoe to kick him in ass. Pretty soon he just go back of cave and sit on rock with chin on fist. Har har har.
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Brownbagger
April 27, 2010 7:49 PM in reply to acriticalthinker
You are not very good at this are you? Why not say "I and everyone one else sees...." No need for the commas. As for the shoe, take it and the quote marks around it and shove them both up your ass. Have a nice evening.
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acriticalthinker
April 27, 2010 10:56 PM in reply to Brownbagger
"You are not very good at this are you?"
What is the "this" you are referring to? "Liberal" (in both senses) use of profanity and crude juvenile put downs, devoid of any substance? Too many commas and "quotation marks"?
"Why not say "I and everyone one else sees...." No need for the commas."
Maybe not, but NOT everyone else sees the the "shoe" fits some HERE perfectly---because people who are not HERE do not, and cannot, see it (too many commas?). My sentence----with the commas---was meant to be precise as to who actually could see that the shoe fits.
"As for the shoe, take it and the quote marks around it and shove them both up your ass."
I see that you insist on showing that the "shoe" fits you perfectly as well.
"Have a nice evening."
Thank you. I hope you have a nice evening too, and a good day tomorrow.
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Marinus van der Lubbe
April 28, 2010 12:08 PM in reply to acriticalthinker
..and the next day..and the next day...and the next day......
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toshiaki
April 26, 2010 4:13 PM
Typical bullshit. Start on the "spending" side rather than look at the fact that our revenue is too low.
John
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Tom
April 26, 2010 5:04 PM
Eliminating the FICA cap violates the basic idea of Social Security. It's supposed to be something of a savings plan: you pay tax on the amount that is going to be guaranteed as a benefit when you retire. The amount over that is not going to be part of the benefit, so you shouldn't pay tax on it. If we decide the FICA tax won't cover the need, then I'd rather we totally change the funding mechanism rather than do something cockeyed like eliminate or raise the cap.
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Leftflank
April 26, 2010 10:27 PM
How's about cutting the salaries of all three branches of government, just as a show of faith. What's Iraq costing us these days & why not do some open accounting on the whole dabacle? Since we're investigating the banks & charging them, why not seize their ill-gotten mega-profits & impose some equitable fines. Their schemes supposedly make Madoff look like a piker.
Anyone talk to Clinton, even through all the right-wing attempts to ruin his tenure, he still left the nation with a major surplus & less government.
Now, let's start trimming some fat.
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