
Rand Paul's apparent opposition to a key provision of the Civil Rights Act places him well within the mainstream of libertarian thought, according to several leading libertarians.
The GOP Senate candidate told MSNBC's Rachel Maddow last night that he would have tried to "modify" the law's ban on racial discrimination by private businesses. That was an expansion of comments he made last month to a Louisville newspaper, in which he said that opposing the ban was "the hard part about believing in freedom."
Paul's stance is "very reasonable, and quite close to the Libertarian position," a spokesman for the Libertarian Party told TPMmuckraker.
"If some private business discriminates we think that's unfortunate, but we don't think the government should get involved in banning it," said the spokesman, Wes Benedict. "That's just a negative that we have to tolerate in a free society."
Walter Block, a libertarian professor of economics at Loyola University, and a senior fellow with the libertarian Ludwig Von Mises Institute, went further. "I think anyone who doesn't believe that isn't a libertarian," he said, calling Paul's comment "a very mainstream libertarianism."
"I'm delighted that Rand Paul said that," an enthusiastic Block added. "I think it's magnificent. I didn't realize that he was that good."
"The spirit of non-discrimination," said Block "ends you right up in compulsory bisexuality."
Harry Browne, the late libertarian activist and presidential candidate, appears to have taken the same view. "Neither before nor after the Civil Rights Act were people free to make their own decisions about whom they would associate with," he wrote in 2003. "The civil rights movement wasn't opposed to using government to coerce people. It merely wanted the government to aim its force in a new direction. Although the activists believed coercion served the noble objective of bringing the races closer together, it was coercion nonetheless."
David Bernstein, a libertarian law professor at George Mason University and the author of the 2003 book You Can't Say That! The Growing Threat To Civil Liberties From Anti-Discrimination Laws, confirmed that opposition to the ban on racial discrimination by private businesses was a mainstream position in libertarian circles both at the time of the Civil Rights Act and today. "The foundation of libertarian thinking is private property as a limit on state action," he said. "So if a private business chooses to discriminate, a typical libertarian would say that's a business owner's right to do so."
Bernstein cited a 1963 article in The New Republic written by Robert Bork -- at the time a libertarian Yale Law professor. In reference to the Interstate Accommodations Act, an earlier piece of civil rights legislation, Bork wrote:
The principle of such legislation is that if I find your behavior ugly by my standards, moral or aesthetic, and if you prove stubborn about adopting my view of the situation, I am justified in having the state coerce you into more righteous paths. That is itself a principle of unsurpassed ugliness.
Indeed, Bernstein said there were prominent liberals who took the same view -- a view that was not seen as incompatible with their liberalism. His book mentions a 1945 letter to the editor of the New York Times, which denounced fair employment laws as unjust intrusions on freedom. The letter was signed by Oswald Garrison Villard, the owner of The Nation, as well as other liberals. Bernstein's book also notes that Hannah Arendt objected to fair housing laws on same grounds, writing that "discrimination is as indispensable a social right as equality is a political right." (As we reported this afternoon, Paul has expressed his own opposition to the Fair Housing Act in similar terms.)
It's not as simple as this though. Bernstein himself said he doesn't see things quite the same way as fellow libertarians like Block and Browne do. In a 2004 op-ed -- subsequently posted on the Cato Institute website -- he argued that "the civil-rights laws of the 1960s were generally sensitive to civil libertarian concerns," since they "prohibited discrimination only in public facilities such as restaurants, hotels and theaters." He warned that newer laws go too far by prohibiting discrimination "in the membership policies of private organizations ... like the Boy Scouts of America."
Richard Epstein, perhaps the country's leading scholar of libertarian legal thought, told TPMmuckraker in a brief interview before boarding a plane that he believes anti-discrimination laws can be justified only as a counter-weight to monopoly power -- but suggested that such monopoly power did exist in the Jim Crow south, when almost no retail businesses would serve blacks.
And in section of a 2009 book published by the Cato Institute, John Samples, a scholar at Cato attempted to reconcile libertarian thought with the Civil Rights Act. He wrote (pdf):
Johnson's major civil rights achievements --the Voting Rights Act
of 1965 and the Civil Rights Act of 1964--are in part compatible with the limited government philosophy. Both could be seen as constraints on governments, especially in the South....The [Civil Rights Act] forced some to engage in exchanges they wished to avoid. On the other hand, the law opened the possibility for an individual to stay at a motel or eat at a lunch counter. That possibility conveyed a power (not a liberty) to African Americans, and it did so by increasing the ambit of the state. The Civil Rights Act appeared constrained in aspiration. [Unlike later laws] It did not require that 12 percent of customers at the restaurant in a month be African-American. Indeed the Civil Rights Act prohibited the use of racial quotas.
In other words, it's possible to be a libertarian without opposing the Civil Rights Act's ban on discrimination by private businesses -- a stance Paul now may be belatedly trying to feel his way towards. But at the same time, opposition to the ban is the mainstream position in libertarian circles. The controversy about Paul's comments, then, is as much about libertarianism itself as about the GOP's new nominee for the U.S. Senate from Kentucky.
LiberalRedneck
May 20, 2010 5:45 PM
Poor Libertarians. The only time anyone pays attention to them is when one of them says something crazy on TV.
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hopper_i
May 21, 2010 7:42 AM in reply to LiberalRedneck
wonder what they'll have to say about this:
http://guttertruth.blogspot.com/2010/05/theocrats_21.html
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LiberalRedneck
May 20, 2010 5:47 PM
"Walter Block, a libertarian professor of economics at Loyola University, and a senior fellow with the libertarian Ludwig Von Mises Institute, went further"
Also, the Ludwig Von Mises Institute is well known for crankery. In fact, the Austrian school of economics would have vanished into obscurity if not for wealthy wingnuts keeping it alive.
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Nancy Irving
May 25, 2010 5:43 AM in reply to LiberalRedneck
I also like it that he's a libertarian at Loyola. It's hard to think of an ideology more in conflict with the philosophy of Jesus--and thus worthy of excommunication--than libertarianism, but this seems not to be a problem for Catholic Loyola. Now if he were in favor of gay rights he'd have been excommunicated and fired pronto.
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LiberalRedneck
May 25, 2010 8:55 AM in reply to Nancy Irving
Most likely thanks to massive donations from wealthy right wing Catholics.
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StrangerNY
May 20, 2010 5:50 PM
So, are these Libertarians still pleased now that Paul has completely reversed himself?
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Walter Mitty
May 20, 2010 6:02 PM in reply to StrangerNY
They know it was was a wink. He has to play the game to get elected...
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LiberalRedneck
May 20, 2010 5:52 PM
For anyone interested in checking out just how insane these people are:
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-ausintro.htm
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GayIthacan
May 20, 2010 5:59 PM
Actually, many libertarians would argue that these positions are NOT in accord with fundamental lilbertarian political philosophy. Many (I being one of them) have argued:
1. A 'private business' that depends on PUBLIC PROPERTY (roads, sidewalks, city services, etc.) is NOT a 'private enterprise'. Sice they depend on entities that are funded by EVERYONE, then there is no possible legitimate reason to discriminate against any member of that public (outside of barring shoplifters or other criminals or those who violate health codes).
It isn't really all that difficult a distinction to make.
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Chris
May 20, 2010 6:07 PM in reply to GayIthacan
I find it odd too that a true Libertarian would be disagreeing that the federal gov can act to ensure civil rights to the populace. Sure some small l libertarians begrudge federal power over anything private. But a privately owned business that exists in public can be regulated by the federal government. And any big L Libertarian, I would think, would agree federal power exists for that very reason, i.e., to ensure the equality of all.
More here, though I suppose I'm wrong according to this TPM report.
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GayIthacan
May 20, 2010 6:51 PM in reply to Chris
Chris:
Precisely.
Most Libertarians (as well as libertarians) of my acquaintance believe that the Civil Rights Act was and is perfectly legal - and justifiable under Libertarian political philosophy.
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Chris
May 20, 2010 9:06 PM in reply to GayIthacan
I think so too, as is the case with those I associate with as well. But if the national party is actually saying they agree with Rand, then apparently I'm off course or they are.
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slb
May 21, 2010 2:06 AM in reply to Chris
And any big L Libertarian, I would think, would agree federal power exists for that very reason, i.e., to ensure the equality of all.
Indeed so. The key passage in the Declaration of Independence proclaims as much:
Liberty and the pursuit of happiness (I think it is significant that the Second Continental Congress rejected the Lockean formulation of "life, liberty, and property") are fundamental rights, and it is the job of government to protect them.
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commie atheist
May 20, 2010 6:07 PM in reply to GayIthacan
Please name one "private business" that does not depend on public property. I honestly can't think of one.
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GayIthacan
May 20, 2010 6:49 PM in reply to commie atheist
Thank you for making my point even clearer and more on target.
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commie atheist
May 20, 2010 7:04 PM in reply to GayIthacan
Ah, I get it. But if that's the case, why does every libertarian I come across (other than you) insist that government regulation of business is tyrannical overreach, and being taxed is akin to legalized robbery?
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Msinformed
May 21, 2010 10:05 AM in reply to commie atheist
On line poker?
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commie atheist
May 21, 2010 11:41 AM in reply to Msinformed
I don't think the intertubes are privately owned (and, of course, they originated in the U.S. military, the biggest of big government overreaches). Not yet, anyway.
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theCleverBulldog
May 20, 2010 6:12 PM in reply to GayIthacan
Then you have no right to keep me out of your house, since you depend upon roads and public services also. I'll stop by around 9, please have some beer in the fridge.
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GayIthacan
May 20, 2010 6:48 PM in reply to theCleverBulldog
Sorry - but ince when is your HOME a BUSINESS?
And since when is the public invited to enter your HOME?
Come on. Your argument is inane. Your HOME is a truly PRIVATE arena - having nothing whatsoever to do with the public.
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Christopher Schimke
May 21, 2010 1:04 AM in reply to GayIthacan
Your response is inadequate. Presumably theCleverBulldog already knows about the distinction between a home and a business. You are begging the question by simply asserting that the home is a "truly private arena." His reply was that your view apparently leads to the conclusion that it is not, so it's not adequate to just assert that it is. You have to show what of ethical significance turns on the distinction between business and home. Is it that the public is invited into a business? What exactly is the public anyway? Some business owners, in the absence of anti-discrimination laws, wouldn't invite certain people into their business, so presumably they would only be inviting *some* of the public. At any rate, business owners only invite some of the public into their places of business anyway. I do not know of anybody who invites nude people into their place of business, unless it is some sort of weird fetish club. So even owners who do not discriminate on the basis of race or any other natural quality still only allow a certain subset of the public into their places of business. Sometimes I invite certain subsets of the public into my house, and sometimes I don't invite anyone at all. So you need to explain what exactly you mean by 'the public' and what it is for a business owner to invite somebody and how that has any ethical significance at all.
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slb
May 21, 2010 2:29 AM in reply to Christopher Schimke
Section 201(b) of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 defines precisely what is meant by "public accommodation":
Unless you are renting out more than 5 rooms in your home, selling food there for consumption on the premises, or using it to provide some form of public entertainment, I think it is safe to assume that it is "a truly private arena."
Nudity is a voluntary condition that can be easily reversed; it compromises no one's ability to exercise their liberty to make use of a public accommodation by requiring that they be dressed. The same is not true of skin color.
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Christopher Schimke
May 21, 2010 4:59 AM in reply to slb
Holy crap. Does ANYBODY here have the ability to follow a philosophical argument? The issue I raised does not concern what distinctions the law actually makes but whether the law is justified in making the distinctions that it does and whether it's justified in attaching the ethical importance to those distinctions that it makes. This is not rocket surgery. What is it about the fact of renting a certain number of rooms or providing some form of "public" entertainment that makes it fundamentally different from what goes on in homes SUCH THAT there is an ethical distinction to be made here? THAT is the question. I don't care what distinction the law actually makes. The law could state that African Americans aren't human beings, but I would have no reason to take that distinction seriously.
You also completely missed my point with your comment about my example concerning nudity. I was NOT trying to make the case that discriminating on the basis of natural qualities and discriminating on the basis of something freely chosen are morally on a par. I was questioning the notion of 'public' being employed here. I was pointing out that since private business already only choose to serve a subset of the population and since I also choose to let only a subset of the population into my house, then what distinguishes the two such that one is inviting the public and the other isn't? How is this difficult to comprehend?
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SkepticalCidada
May 21, 2010 7:30 AM in reply to Christopher Schimke
Yes, when we encounter a cogent one, but we don't find your pseudo-intellectualism persuasive. The differences between spatial privacy in ones home and the operation of a commercial enterprise open to the public are so obvious that your adamant pretense to the contrary shows that you're such a committed ideologue that engagement would be a complete waste of time.
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Angry McAngus
May 20, 2010 6:55 PM in reply to theCleverBulldog
But her home isn't an "enterprise".
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Boidster
May 20, 2010 6:59 PM in reply to theCleverBulldog
Lolwut?
What does non-discrimination against protected classes in public spaces of private business have to do with GayIthacan's house? Is the house a business with a public space? Are you a protected class?
You people think "you can't put up a 'Whites Only' sign" is equivalent to "you no longer have a right to privacy or to be free from trespass in your own home". Crackpots, all of ya.
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CranialRectalLoopback
May 20, 2010 9:24 PM in reply to theCleverBulldog
I realize you're retarded,* but even "private" businesses close at night. Think of one's home as NEVER OPEN FOR BUSINESS.
*retarded used for satirical purposes only.
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AJM
May 20, 2010 10:20 PM in reply to theCleverBulldog
Similar laws do apply to private homes. When the owners of the home invite the general public -- as when they offer to sell the home -- they can't discriminate. When it is truly private, it remains private. Also true for private clubs.
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chriss1519
May 20, 2010 7:00 PM in reply to GayIthacan
that's weak.
private individuals rely on roads and other infrastructure. does that mean they are not really "private" individuals?
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SchrodingersCat
May 20, 2010 7:05 PM in reply to chriss1519
Talk about weak....do you not understand the distinction between a "person" and "a business enterprise"?
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Jackster
May 20, 2010 7:29 PM in reply to SchrodingersCat
not the scotus
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Syd
May 20, 2010 8:41 PM in reply to Jackster
Oooooh snap. I was hoping someone would say that. Nice catch.
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Schmed
May 20, 2010 9:47 PM in reply to Jackster
+1
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Boidster
May 20, 2010 7:06 PM in reply to chriss1519
Focus...the issue is BUSINESSES with public spaces. Not individuals nor private homes.
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LiberalRedneck
May 20, 2010 7:04 PM in reply to GayIthacan
Why is it that every libertarian expects non-libertarians to accept his personal definition of libertarianism?
You're all cranks in my opinion.
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joevan
May 21, 2010 9:19 AM in reply to LiberalRedneck
That's a good point. Same for so-called conservative intellectuals generally. They always want to be taken seriously as a political movement, yet somehow exclusive of the entire actual political apparatus that they field. The tea party has never offered any coherent plan regarding even the things they say are evil--bailouts etc.
Take a look at all the bullshit positions the Cato Institute has underwritten compared to the minor efforts of funding a few OK books--they're nothing but a prop for corporate interests & the GOP, and have been for a long time.
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Jackster
May 20, 2010 7:25 PM in reply to GayIthacan
Yes but not all Lib's see it that way. Just like so many other belief sytems, political or otherwise, people like to cherry pick what to adhere to. Kinda like Repub's and family values.
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scarabeo rosso
May 20, 2010 10:24 PM in reply to GayIthacan
GayIthacan wrote, "Many [libertarians] (I being one of them) have argued: A 'private business' that depends on PUBLIC PROPERTY..."
You're a bit late. Karl Marx argued that same point 140 years ago in "Das Kapital". He was not a libertarian.
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BobFred2
May 20, 2010 6:00 PM
Soooo...he wants to reduce the size of government which includes government involvement in education and health care. So private schools, private hospitals and doctors could discriminate on the basis of race and other factors with fewer government alternatives. And he says the market would remedy any inequality that results? Oh what a wonderful world that would be.
Whether or not he is racist he will enable it in the worst possible way.
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Angry McAngus
May 20, 2010 6:59 PM in reply to BobFred2
Sure. The market has a long history of remedying inequality. For instance, the slave market. If there were a perceived inequality, say, between slaves, why one could just eliminate that inequality by eliminating one or both slaves and replacing them. Simple. The market fixes the inequality because the slaves are not too expensive for the slave owner.
Cracker logic is easy once you get the hang of it.
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chameleon
May 20, 2010 8:07 PM in reply to Angry McAngus
That's a great description - cracker logic...
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zonk
May 20, 2010 6:00 PM
Intellectually, I can even appreciate the line of reasoning.
My problem, though, is that I have NEVER heard a libertarian give a coherent response to the fundamental issue about the services and benefits that 'free society' provides the enjoyers of such freedoms.
As I've said in multiple threads on this - that position, "allowing" discrimination to preserve freedom - really only works if those same folks agree to forgo all the protections and services that the color blind government provides them.
Look - it ultimately comes down to a quote I remember from a Seinfeld episode long ago: "George, we're trying to have a civilization here."
The true libertarians ought to be galting it up somewhere out in the wild. They've already crossed the threshold into accepting some form of social coordination by simply participating in society. Echoing Churchill (supposedly) "we've already established that you're a prostitute, now we're just negotiating price."
It pisses me off to no end that so many nominally intelligent people laud the Paultards of the world for their supposed intellectual honesty when it's all such nonsense... It's not intellectual honesty or purity in any sense.
It's nothing more than thinly disguised authoritarianism -- "I believe in FREEDOM... the freedoms I say are important."
They denounce the supposed statism of the left - but really, it's not statism that bothers them... it's the fact that it's not their particular brand of statism that generally rules the roost.
Why is that?
Because the overwhelming majority of people in this country feel a much greater need for protection from private industry than they do the government. The purveyors of the intellectually shallow and bankrupt Reagan revolution have cleverly convinced plenty of people that the private enterprise only sticks it to them because the government makes private enterprise stick it to them, but that's fog is thankfully, lifting.
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Hobbes83
May 20, 2010 6:04 PM in reply to zonk
Thanks for the analysis, I've argued many of the points that you just discussed with a few of my libertarian friends.
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commie atheist
May 20, 2010 6:11 PM in reply to zonk
GayIthacan above seems to think that there are private businesses that make absolutely no use of public services or property. Waiting for an example.
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NotBornEveryMinute
May 20, 2010 6:38 PM in reply to zonk
"... galting it up somewhere out in the wild."
I'm stealing the line! :D
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lotl
May 21, 2010 9:15 PM in reply to NotBornEveryMinute
It is a funny line, but true Galtians couldn't handle wilderness. They'd have to tear it down and build skyscrapers and factories on it. Ol' Ayn was death on enviromentalism; said anyone who espoused it was rejecting all human imagination and reason, etc., etc. I know she justified her heavy tobacco habit by making the cigarette a symbol of progress, its spark representing the glowing light of human reason*, and unless I recall incorrectly, great smokestacks spewing poison into the sky were likewise sacred symbols of same.
* Funny that she failed to note how ass-backwards this is to her own philosophy, since it would indicate that human reason destroys (burns down) the fruits of "progress", not creates them.
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Angry McAngus
May 20, 2010 7:05 PM in reply to zonk
Excellent point.
They've already crossed the threshold into accepting some form of social coordination by simply participating in society.
It's as if they want to bypass social contract theory and Enlightenment ideals and get back to feudalism where vassals and serfs knew their fookin place!
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Mike2
May 20, 2010 6:02 PM
Is Paul a racist? Of course he is. People adopt this philosophy because it leads to some outcomes that they want for other reasons, and enables them to avoid stating those ugly reasons.
But there's a simple response to all "rights" fundamentalists and that is that the exercise of rights is always limited by government, and balanced against other rights.
A private property is located on a public street, filled with the public air, and part of the public space. What you do in that private space is a matter of public concern.
Likewise what you say in a crowded theater can be limited. Likewise the carrying of arms can be limited. There are no absolute rights, but rather a fabric of rights that must be balanced against each other. There is something so impossibly juvenile about libertarians and rights absolutists.
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GTFOOH
May 20, 2010 7:59 PM in reply to Mike2
Fanned! We all saw those States rights proponents run for cover, when they needed SCOTUS to decide Bush v Gore. We also see how none of them seem to want to impose their philosophy on behalf of Latinos in Arizona.
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yug doog
May 20, 2010 10:55 PM in reply to Mike2
Personally the libertarians ive met are less racists and more classists ... as in if money rather than government rules then it would really suck to be poor but the rich can do whatever hell they want once the 'equalizer' is out of the way. the fact that many poor are minorities is just an 'unfortunate' side effect. but hell everyone will be FREE!
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lotl
May 21, 2010 10:11 PM in reply to Mike2
"There is something so impossibly juvenile about libertarians and rights absolutists."
Well sure. The idea that you can do whatever you want regardless of how it effects anyone else is essentially the mindset of a child. Like the line from the U2 song Party Girl: "When I was 3, I thought the world revolved around me, I was wrong."
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twirling fartknocker
May 20, 2010 6:03 PM
So, what race are 99% of these reasonable libertarians? Anyone wanna guess?
And wouldn't the end result of hard-core liberalism like Paul's be no government? If so, why is he running for Senate?
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GayIthacan
May 20, 2010 6:08 PM in reply to twirling fartknocker
No.
Libertarianism maintains that there are several areas in which government is not only reasonable - but required.
It bears absolutely no relation to anarchy.
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twirling fartknocker
May 20, 2010 6:14 PM in reply to GayIthacan
So then tell me, when is government compulsion acceptable to these folks and when is it not 'cause I haven't heard about the instances where they think it is?
And will Paul refuse to vote or vote "no" on all Senate business that involves unacceptable compulsion? Or will he grudgingly compel people to do things he doesn't believe in from the US Senate?
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twirling fartknocker
May 20, 2010 6:31 PM in reply to GayIthacan
wikipedia says: Libertarianism is a political theory that advocates the maximization of individual liberty in thought and action and the minimization or even abolition of the state.
it lists a few flavors of libertarians, including one strain called anarcho-capitalism
how a hardcore libertarian running for Senate fits into this I am still puzzled by. in what way would he govern, if not to destroy government, or most of it, itself?
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commie atheist
May 20, 2010 6:44 PM in reply to twirling fartknocker
He would make it small enough that you could "drown it in the bathtub."
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blhurricanedrowngovernment.htm
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Sir T
May 20, 2010 9:27 PM in reply to commie atheist
In other words, an absolute monarchy.
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Prof Wagstaff
May 21, 2010 8:59 AM in reply to GayIthacan
Libertarians are just anarchists with money.
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commie atheist
May 20, 2010 6:04 PM
These people are insane. They must be stopped.
Wait, never mind...if this is mainstream libertarianism, it will appeal to about 10% of the population at most. G'Bye, Dr. Paul.
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Matt Jones
May 20, 2010 7:58 PM in reply to commie atheist
"Compulsory bisexuality" - is *that* the explanation for what's happened to the Republican party lately? ;)
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commie atheist
May 20, 2010 8:58 PM in reply to Matt Jones
Maybe. They keep complaining about things being shoved down their throats.
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slb
May 21, 2010 2:37 AM in reply to commie atheist
I'm glad I wasn't drinking a soda when I read that!
+1!
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Mr. Benchley
May 21, 2010 9:33 AM in reply to commie atheist
Bigotry AND gender problems....Loyola must be bursting with pride this morning!
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lotl
May 21, 2010 10:17 PM in reply to commie atheist
Yeah, exactly. Mainstream libertarianism certainly seems to be an oxymoron to me. If this is mainstream what does the fringe look like?
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Jacques
May 23, 2010 11:15 AM in reply to commie atheist
Can we at least make it compulsory for the cute barrista on 3rd Avenue?
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UMSLBlog
May 20, 2010 6:13 PM
Spelling Error on main page line. Thin should be Think.
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theCleverBulldog
May 20, 2010 6:16 PM
Funny that you liberals are alarmed at the thought of Paul joining the Senate because he may not support all the provisions of the Civil Rights Act, but you have no problem with Byrd BEING IN THE SENATE FOR 50 YEARS, and he actually did vote against that bill. Plus he was a leader of the KKK. Oh, but he is a democrat. Never mind.
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twirling fartknocker
May 20, 2010 6:20 PM in reply to theCleverBulldog
hey too-clever-by half, Byrd renounced all that decades ago. Paul is running for Senate in the year 2010, still reliving long settled debates, wanting to turn back the clock a half a century on civil rights protections
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ladyfractal
May 20, 2010 6:32 PM in reply to theCleverBulldog
Funny, you conservatives don't seem to have a problem with Strom Thurmond serving in the Senate and he voted against the Civil Rights bill. Oh but he was a Republican and so that was okay.
Did Byrd ever say "that vote was wrong". Yes.
Unlike a lot of people, I think that Dr. Paul isn't racist. I think he's wrong, but not racist. I think he has this idealistic view of the marketplace but doesn't have a realistic view of one. I can think of any number of market-based outcomes that wind up with widespread segregation without the government EVER getting involved.
Senator Byrd repudiated his past. It is telling that you conservatives are all for the Jesse Helms and Strom Thurmonds who never did repudiate their pasts (at least as far as I am aware) but LOVE to bring up Byrd. You DO realize that Thurmond and Helms were both Republicans, right?
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richard f
May 20, 2010 6:46 PM in reply to ladyfractal
Every Southern senator voted against the Civil Rights Bill of 1964 including Al Gore Sr. If they hadn't they would have lost their next election. Most of them, including Byrd and Gore Sr., later changed their minds.
I don't think Dr. Rand is a racist but his logic leads to racist results (and not to an expansion of freedom as he, just yesterday, contended).
Rand, however, and his father have allied themselves with outright racists and his father has repeatedly said that he opposes the public accomodation section of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Now that Dr. Rand is in the public eye, I think we will find examples of numerous hard core libertarian positions he has taken in the past and similar attempts to weasel away from them
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cwnidog
May 20, 2010 7:59 PM in reply to ladyfractal
I'd agree that he's probably not. I'd also maintain that it makes not one wit of difference whether he is or is not racist.
I think that Paul is one of those unfortunates who don't seem to be able to follow policies that his philosophy requires to their logical conclusion. It doesn't matter that he's not a racist if his philosophy leads him to toleration of racism and it's effects on the part of others.
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SkepticalCidada
May 21, 2010 7:20 AM in reply to cwnidog
Exactly. Part of the emergency damage control by the far-right is to try to pretend that the issue is whether Rand Paul is a racist. They hope that they can rebut the claim that he's a racist and that somehow that makes his views okay.
But the point isn't whether he's a racist. The point is that, whatever his race views, he believes government should never act to protect people from discrimination by corporations. That view is very extreme and completely unacceptable no matter what his personal views on race may be.
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slb
May 21, 2010 2:39 AM in reply to ladyfractal
I don't think Rand Paul is a racist. I just think he's a fool.
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Ivo
May 21, 2010 1:44 AM in reply to theCleverBulldog
I don't recall anyone saying anything about Robert Byrd. Robert Byrd's past does not make Rand Paul intelligent or coherent in anyway. I see what you did there.
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lyleleander
May 20, 2010 6:29 PM
I'm assuming the Libertarian position, if asked about, would be that landlords and employers can also discriminate based of race... and any other fact that someone could be born with and make them a minority.
I really hope some reporter gets him on the record agreeing that this is the right of a landlord or employer.
Of course, we all know what he'd really do if asked.... weasel like the punk-ass he is, and refuse to give a straight answer.
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tctundra
May 20, 2010 6:36 PM
A libertarian can only feel free when they are free to take away someone else's freedom.
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calbearinillinois
May 20, 2010 6:41 PM
There's no such thing as "mainstream" libertarianism. True libertarian intellectualism is, like pure capitalism or socialism, utterly divorced from an anchor in reality. The theory ahbors the fundamental principles of the Constitution that a strong central government is a necessary thing. Anyone who simultaneously claims to be a true libertarian and swears to uphold the constitution is lying about one or the other. It would be like an atheist swearing on a Bible or a Communist working in a bank - something just ain't right.
Which is why true libertarians don't win political races in this country, and the "Libertarian Party" is really just a slightly derivative version of the Republican party..
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NuttyProf
May 20, 2010 6:57 PM
I want him to run for president.
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Jackster
May 20, 2010 7:39 PM in reply to NuttyProf
He's gotta get by Palin ;)
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Richard L. Adlof
May 20, 2010 7:00 PM
Very reasonable for an anti-societial sociopath.
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dustbunny44
May 20, 2010 7:09 PM
Rand (appropriately named after a unit of currency) is a pretty obvious example of opportunism advancing the cause of everyone's self-enrichment at the expense of everyone's humanity and well-being. Grow the fuck up.
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free2bme
May 20, 2010 7:12 PM
Here's my problem with the Libertarian philosophy...that they want govt involvement when they say it is ok, otherwise no to govt involvement. So with that air tight philosophy, there will obviously be no room for abuse. I mean it is so well thought out. Look at all the historical examples of great Libertarianism at work...let's see, there's, ummmmmm. OK so there are no good real life examples of Libertarianism because it is insane and impossible to balance philosophically. But watch all the fragmented Libertarians try to frame their beliefs, just like the Teabaggers have so clearly banded together with a clear party platform. I mean, look at the conviction of Rand Paul...he fought so hard to backtrack on his statements in less than 24hours...so much for political conviction, or should I say political suicide.
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Chris Brown
May 20, 2010 7:20 PM
So libertarians don't support at least one of the six USA Constitutionally enumerated purposes for the establishment of our government "in order to establish a more perfect union" - to "promote the general welfare".
These folks are indeed "sociopaths".
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LiberalRedneck
May 20, 2010 8:12 PM in reply to Chris Brown
Crank magnetism: http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2007/06/crank_magnetism_1.php
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prescient_1
May 20, 2010 8:33 PM in reply to Chris Brown
Wrong, the constitution acknowledges our individual rights to associate with whomever we want.
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slb
May 21, 2010 2:49 AM in reply to prescient_1
But what do you do when one person's right to associate with whomever he wants comes into conflict with another person's right to live as a free citizen on equal terms with all other citizens?
The problem I have with Libertarians is that they are absolutist about things, but there is no absolutist solution to the problem of one person's enjoyment of rights interfering the rights of another person to do the same. None of the rights we have are absolute; there have to be limits on their exercise in order to avoid stepping on the rights of other people. Working out reasonable limits is the business of governance, but Libertarians want no parts of it. They want THEIR rights to be absolute, and they don't care whether the exercise of THEIR righst interferes with anyone else's.
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SkepticalCidada
May 21, 2010 7:15 AM in reply to prescient_1
No, there is not one word in the text of the Constitution about freedom of association.
What minimal constitutional protection exists for this so-called right is purely a result of judicial decisions.
And guess what? Those judicial decisions also hold that Congress has the power to ban race discrimination by private businesses.
So do you want to follow Court decisions or not?
Why on earth do these people with no understanding of either the Constitution or constitutional law come in here and pontificate about the Constitution?
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prescient_1
May 20, 2010 8:31 PM
So glad we have such inclusive organizations like the NAACP, the Black Entertainment Network, The united negro college fund, the congressional black caucus.
Oh brother!
Grow up!
People have a basic individual right to associate with whomever we want to.
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SchrodingersCat
May 20, 2010 8:45 PM in reply to prescient_1
Who is denying that an individual has the right to associate with whomever they choose?
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commie atheist
May 20, 2010 9:01 PM in reply to SchrodingersCat
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that impressionable_one is a flat-out racist. The tell is how all of the organizations he mentions are associated with black people.
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Prof Wagstaff
May 21, 2010 9:06 AM in reply to commie atheist
You nailed it. It's pretty clear just what he is.
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Syd
May 20, 2010 8:39 PM
Well....I think he will mask his true feelings for the remainder of the campaign. I cannot wait to hear his views about medicare and social security. His attitude about leaving mining regulation up to the states won't sit very well with mining communities who just witnessed the latest results of lax regulation oversight. However, I think Conway has to fight this man in terms the average Kentucky voter understands - bread and butter issues. I think Rachel's interview may have actually gained him some supporters if Kentucky is anything like it was when I lived there.
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Reasonable
May 20, 2010 11:39 PM in reply to Syd
Rand's position on Medicare? Funny you should ask!
You'd think he'd be all about cutting Medicare spending, but in fact, as a physician a good part of his own income comes from this government program.
And, guess what, he wants HIS government checks to get bigger, not smaller, because he feels that he and other physicians are entitled to make more.
Whattahypocrite!
http://thinkprogress.org/2010/05/20/rand-paul-doc-fix/
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Syd
May 21, 2010 12:10 PM in reply to Reasonable
Thank you for that link!!
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Gyrofrog
May 21, 2010 3:23 PM in reply to Reasonable
Reminds me of the landlord I once had. He was very active in the local LP. However, he was not above accepting rent subsidies from the State (of TX).
As soon as the lease was up I got out of there. Hey, the market works!
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CranialRectalLoopback
May 20, 2010 9:20 PM
So it's OK, then, for private businesses to post signs "No Jews Allowed". Agreed? Agreed.
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tomfodw
May 20, 2010 10:23 PM
What about a black person's right to shop wherever he wants? None of these right-wing garbage have ever been discriminated against in their lives - if they were, they'd be shrieking like tiny little sniveling babies.
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Max Thrax
May 20, 2010 10:49 PM
From personal experience, libertarians are the same racist, frat boy jerk offs in the grip of white cultural panic that the Repukes are, they just have a weird aversion to admitting they're really Republicans in polite company.
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fafner1
May 20, 2010 11:02 PM
My big problem with libertarians is that while most of them will admit that we need laws against murder and theft, they only want these laws to apply when a gun or knife are used. If a pen is used, well that is just fine. It's no mystery why most libertarians (excluding the young and naive) are white, male and well off.
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Michael
May 20, 2010 11:54 PM
Given Rand's and the Libertarian's view on civil rights, voting rights, American's With Disabilities Act, why would any American citizen be willing to join the military to defend racist policies of private businesses or indivduals? Libertaians clearly have not logically thought out the end results of their ideology. They clamor about individual liberties, individual rights, individual freedoms which leaves the perception that they are a bunch of spoiled, immature crybabies. Small government is impossable in a nation of 330 million diverse Americans. Impossable. The argument over small government and state's rights was decided in 1865 when Robert E Lee surendered to U.S. Grant.
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MassDem
May 21, 2010 12:31 AM
Rand ran into the libertarian inanity wall. I can define my "rights" to be whatever I want them to be, and so can you. But nobody is allowed to referee when my rights conflict with yours. So who wins? The guy with the biggest gun usually. It's not a philosophy of personal freedom, it's a policy based, ultimately, on domination and submission.
Blacks were denied the right to fully participate and compete in the free market because of something (skin color) which they had no control over and did not affect their ability to compete in the market. Southern states gave one group a right and privilege they did not deserve, or earn in the market, at the expense of another group. The strong dominated the weak.
The Civil Rights Act simply used federal power to rectify this violation of the individual rights of blacks.
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MarinCat
May 21, 2010 12:35 AM
Ferchristsake, these Libertine-arian Dialogues make my head ache. It's the beginning of the 21st century, and now that Communism is in the dust bin of history, WHO IS GOING TO SAVE US FROM THE CAPITALIST? WHO?
I'm like all down with smoking some weed with a Libratrarian, but when my kid is dying of food poising, I don't want my only option to be a law suit up against John Galt's law firm. It's like on their best days they will never be betters than half right about anything.
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NickinOz
May 21, 2010 12:37 AM
I have a fair amount of time for some libertarian ideals, but (as has been mentioned upthread), historically no libertarians have really done the hard yards of trying to adapt the pure philosophy of libertarianism into something which can function in civil society as a method of governance.
Take, say communism. In it's pure form, nonsense. Several figures over history have, however, made attempts to adapt it into a governance structure, leading to Leninism (bad), Maoism (still bad), but also some of the great social democracies of Europe (I am thinking Sweden, Norway, etc).
I guess the inherent weakness is the core rejection of government (although again, as been pointed out, libertariansim is not anarchy, and does not reject all forms of state coercion), which means most hardcore proponents simply aren't going to devote their time to adapting the libertarian structure to today's governance structure (since wholesale revolutions have kinda gone out of style).
All that to say - Ron / Rand Paul - ya got nothin'.
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Phoebe Fay
May 21, 2010 12:42 AM
So, Rand believes the government shouldn't interfere with a business that wants to discriminate against African Americans or Jews or Asians or whatever because, gee, it's regrettable, but that's just the price of a free society.
However, the government should have the right to interfere with what goes on in a woman's uterus and insist on forced pregnancy.
I see some inconsistency here. I also note that it's very convenient for Paul that he's not a member of a minority typically targeted for discrimination, nor will he ever have to worry about being pregnant. He's very cavalier about supporting positions that will hurt minorities and women. Somehow, I don't think he'd be quite so sanguine with laws that would restrict the rights of white males.
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new10
May 21, 2010 9:17 AM in reply to Phoebe Fay
Yes. This highlights what Obama says regarding an important quality of Supreme Court nominees. Which is that they need to understand how the law affects real people, not just how it affects the intellect.
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Nancy Irving
May 21, 2010 1:41 AM
"That's just a negative that we have to tolerate in a free society."
Yes, racial discrimination is just a terrible burden we white libertarians are willing to shoulder for the good of mankind.
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SkepticalCidada
May 21, 2010 7:02 AM
Thinking government shouldn't do anything to address private-sector discrimination or harassment, no matter how virulent, is why libertarianism remains and will continue to remain on the fringe of the political spectrum. It is also why libertarians are overwhelmingly white and male. It is one thing to believe government regulation should be avoided when practical; it is something else entirely to believe government should never act. The latter makes libertarians extremist ideologues whom few will ever take seriously.
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SkepticalCidada
May 21, 2010 7:07 AM
Rand Paul's position also screams hypocrisy. He expects everyone to tolerate racial discrimination, no matter how vile we think it is, but he thinks his personal moral objections to same-sex marriage justifies government prohibition. He doesn't mind allowing bigots to discriminate, but he won't tolerate gay people getting married.
So it frequently is with straight, white male libertarian hypocrites: "Give us the guns we want and let us discriminate against whoever we want, but fuck anyone else's liberty."
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Falstaff
May 21, 2010 7:46 AM
Discrimination is the theft of liberty. Freedom cannot exist at the expense of others.
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runningcirclez
May 21, 2010 8:29 AM
rand paul is just a fool. that is all. http://www.ThePartisanDialogues.com
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skipperdan
May 21, 2010 8:46 AM
Rand Paul's media blitz continues. He'll be on Alex Jones' radio show today.
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/93780
Let's see what Paul says to a fellow libertarian, with some New World Order and Illuminati thrown in.
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willia451
May 21, 2010 10:05 AM
The reason why Randbutt's argument does not work (hence the runback) is that we're already decided AGAINST that logic. We've HAD that argument.
And we've agreed that individual rights are NOT absolute.
The government DOES have a role in ensuring equal protection and equal treatment for its citizens.
Period.
The man is either delusional or just plain stupid. Or both.
If the GOP does not distance themselves from this man, and I mean quickly, they are in serious trouble.
You cannot govern a nation as large and diverse as the United States, based on his tainted bullshit.
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christophercarr
May 21, 2010 11:00 AM
For Obama supporters honestly hoping for a post-partisan politics, a focused and de-radicalized tea party, working together with conservatives to solve problems, and political disagreement based in difference of values instead of Orwellian arguments about facts, Rand Paul is exactly what this country needs. For those who value heterodoxy, whether Republicans, Democrats, or Independents, Rand Paul should be a welcome addition to the U.S. Senate.
Rachel Maddow’s contention that Paul supports racism because he believes private businesses should be able to discriminate, is like saying that anyone who supports states’s rights supports slavery.
http://www.theinductive.com/blog/2010/5/19/a-victory-for-heterodoxy-in-kentucky.html
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May 22, 2010 2:47 AM in reply to christophercarr
christophercarr: "Rachel Maddow’s contention that Paul supports racism because he believes private businesses should be able to discriminate, is like saying that anyone who supports states’s rights supports slavery."
One supports the logical conclusions of any policy they support, whether or not they personally agree with those logical conclusions.
Its like the people who want to ban drugs (to use a pet project of Libertarianism) insisting that they only want to help people, when the logical conclusion of banning something is that the police will eventually have to use lethal force to defend that ban.
When kids get shot because they're transporting drugs, the folks who support the banning of drugs always disingenuously use the same type of "supporting X doesn't mean supporting something permitted/required by X" argument: "just because I support banning drugs doesn't mean I support child drug mules getting shot!"
Supporting states rights over federal regulation just means states can implement any policy they want regardless of the civil rights of those involved, which includes the re-implementation of slavery. Sure, most of them aren't going to be stupid enough to re-enslave non-white people, but enslaving pedophiles in work camps is already a talking point of one California political candidate.
When you get right down to it, the Libertarian policy of allowing corporations to do whatever they want to reduce costs, coupled with the Libertarian policy of states rights, makes the reinstatement of slavery guaranteed. After all, labor costs are something corporations complain about all the time, and slavery erases labor costs from their balance sheets, other than the minor costs of a daily bowl of gruel and a "gently-used" replacement blanket once a year.
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Deciduous
May 24, 2010 5:08 PM in reply to Leo
The fundamental aspect of libertarianism is personal liberty and rights, so slavery would never enter the picture. No one could be lawfully enslaved or coerced because it would violate their rights.
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Sniffit
May 21, 2010 11:16 AM
These people are batshit crazy. Nothing really needs to be said other that. However, it should be noted that these nutjob freaks glibly gloss over the fact that corporate existence is a privilege granted by the government, not a right, and that the permits and licenses required to conduct almost every business enterprise are also privileges granted by the government...and they ingore those facts because they undermine the entire batshit crazy argument. The state shouldn't be sanctioning discrimination and oppression by granting corporate existence (or turning a blind eye to unregistered d/b/a's) and granting them permits and licenses to conduct their business in a manner that discriminates and violates the basic human rights of their fellow citizens. The damage to society far outwieghs and overwhelms the damage to those indivudals' bruised racist egos.
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Richard
May 21, 2010 3:26 PM in reply to Sniffit
You hit the targe dead on, Sniffit
The Civil Rights Act applies only to private businesses which, under licensure from the state, accommodate the general public, such as bars, restaurants, hotels, et cetera. The statute implements the 14th Amendment guaranty of equal protection, through due process of law. And, for anyone with even a hint about how the Constitution is actually structured and how it is designed to work, the 14th Amendment, through the process of incorporation, makes the privileges and immunities guaranteed in the federal Constitution fully applicable to the states, as determined by the Supreme Court under Article III, to be the Supreme Law of the Land under Article VI, "any thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."
For purposes of the 10th Amendment, therefore, the power to determine the scope and applicability of our constitutional rights is clearly delegated to the federal government, acting through the federal courts -and it is not "reserved to the states." Whenever a conflict exists between an individual's constitutional rights and the laws of a state in any substantive area, even when that substantive area is reserved to the states as with licensing bars and restaurants, the federal court's resolution of that conflict is the supreme law of the land, binding on the states.
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lotl
May 21, 2010 11:19 PM in reply to Sniffit
What you say is true of the current system. If I'm not mistaken, though, libertarians would like to eliminate that system. This is part of what they mean when they say they have a right to run a business without govt interference.
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biglith
May 21, 2010 11:34 AM
A truly private business would accept no police or fire protection. They also would not use water or sewer services. They would need to be off the the public highway system and power grid.
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May 22, 2010 2:51 AM in reply to biglith
Libertarians giving up their lattes, cell phones, and automobiles and going Amish?
Perish the thought!
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Deciduous
May 24, 2010 5:12 PM in reply to biglith
Well to be fair they would be paying for whatever police/fire protection they utilize or any other water/energy services they utilize.
But most of those services (except police protection, depending on the flavor of libertarianism) would be privately provided.
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Richard
May 21, 2010 3:11 PM
So, tell us, Mr. Paul
Was Mr. Jim Crow a "mainstream libertarian?" How about Arkansas Governor Orville "States Rights" Faubus who got in Ike's face with that kind of "mainstream libertarian" BS, until Ike had to send the troops to Little Rock just so a few black kids could go to public school. How 'bout those good ol' boys in Philadelphia, Mississippi, who got away with murdering three civil rights workers who were helping black folks register to vote -an obvious threat to the cherished Southern "way of life," were those 'ol boys "mainstream libertarians" too? And let's not forget old Ronald "Jelly Beans" Reagan who kicked off his 1979 presidential campaign right back there at the County Fair in Philadelphia, Mississippi, telling the crowd that he was a firm believer in "states rights." Was that a "mainstream libertarian" message -or was it a Jim Crow message? Then, again, those two alternatives really are not mutually exclusive, are they?
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May 22, 2010 3:09 AM in reply to Richard
This "just because Paul supports states rights, which would permit reinstatement of segregation and slavery, does not mean he supports reinstatement of segregation and slavery" argument sounds a lot like the apologists for "Intelligent Design" after the "reinvention" of Creationism as Intelligent Design.
Basically, if you reinvent the ideology into a new ideology which results in the same goals (racism/Creationism becoming the law of the land), but substitute something in place of the offensive part of the ideology (replacing "God as Creator" with "It doesn't matter which Supreme Being was the Creator"; and replacing "racism" with states rights), you may cause more people to accept the new ideology.
"Intelligent Design" means the largely Christian Creationists gain the support of the UFOlogists, the Muslims, and any other religion with a faction supporting a Young Earth Hypothesis, increasing the size of the support pie, and allowing them to pick from the finest arguments presented by this much wider pool of wackos.
Changing the argument from "racists should be allowed to do what they like" to the similar "states should be allowed to ignore federal regulations preventing racists from doing what they like" means people who may not support racism and discrimination to come out in support of the new ideology because of other things they want to do which are denied to them through federal regulations.
For example, a Hispanic may feel his business is restricted too much by federal regulations, and that he could more easily buy himself less restrictions if all he had to bribe was a state government instead of the entire federal government. A Black man may feel that federal regulations denying him use of illegal immigrant labor need to be lifted so he can reduce his labor costs to near zero.
Neither of these individuals would support a "racists should be allowed to do what they like" policy, but both of them would support a "states should be allowed to ignore federal regulations" ideology, thinking, possibly accurately, that their higher incomes would protect them from the inevitable Jim Crow attitudes of the successful "states rights" white elite.
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Leftflank
May 22, 2010 6:38 PM
Sure his views are very reasonable, if you already believe in them & don't care who else they affect. Slavery is reasonable to a slaveowner but crazy as crazy gets to a slave. Rand may not be a racist but he's definitely a white supremicist. I think I just contradicted myself.
Also, if Rand & all his fellow libertarians are so right, why is he slinking away? Why aren't they jumping out in the publics eye in protest? Why aren't they articulating their stance proudly, on national TV, say like on, Meet the Press The Rachel Maddow Show or god-forbid, C-span?
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May 22, 2010 11:50 PM
Libertarians are not crazy, they are just bedeviled by a selective consistency that leads them down some dark paths of public policy. Libertarians seek to set some very basic "rules of the game" for society, and then get government out of the way. While this goal is admirable in theory, it is unworkable as practical social policy. Unfortunately, libertarians are so obsessed with individual liberty and philosophical consistency that they fail to understand how unacceptable some of their policy prescriptions are.
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fashiongoods02
May 23, 2010 9:43 PM
share with you a link. kindly have a looking. thank you!
http://www.shoes2.us/products/AIR-FORCE-ONES-8-s-1.html
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October 20, 2010 4:22 PM
All Rand Paul had to do was to ask Rachel Maddow if she would eat at a restaurant that discriminated against African Americans. From biodegradable Sun Chips bags to Hyundai Hope on Wheels...watching 10 minutes of commercials clearly demonstrates that businesses recognize that catering to the values of society equates to greater profits. The answer is ethical consumerism...not government regulation.
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