
When at first you don't succeed...
After failing yesterday to get the 60 votes they needed to bring debate on a historic financial reform bill to a close, Senate Democrats succeeded in this afternoon's cloture vote.
The final vote today was 60-40 (yesterday it was 57-42). Next up is a final vote on passage, which is expected to take place within days.
After today's vote, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said there are "a couple of amendments that are germane post-cloture, but they're the ones that we have to figure out a way to get resolved."
"We're going to try to work through this," Reid said, adding that there may be more votes this afternoon.
"Best of all worlds, we'd finish this thing and move onto other issues," Reid said. "We're gonna try to do that."
Two Democrats -- Sens. Maria Cantwell (D-WA) and Russ Feingold (D-WI) -- still voted no today, but this time around, Sen. Scott Brown (R-MA) joined Sens. Olympia Snowe (R-ME) and Susan Collins (R-ME) in supporting cloture.
Sen. Arlen Specter (D-PA), who was absent for yesterday's vote, also voted in favor of cloture. Reid also changed his vote from "no" to "yes" -- though yesterday's "no" vote was merely a procedural necessity that allowed him to bring up the motion again.
Walter Mitty
May 20, 2010 2:55 PM
If the primary was still going on, Specter would have voted against cloture.
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ondioline
May 20, 2010 3:09 PM in reply to Walter Mitty
I wish more Dems had voted against cloture. The bill could've been strengthened and there were Dem amendments waiting to attempt just that...
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LumberJock
May 20, 2010 7:05 PM in reply to Walter Mitty
Get real. Arlen became a team player after joining us. Pennsylvania was a 'no-lose' opportunity. You may harbor all the animosity you wish, but it's misdirected. Turn your distress outward to tea-partizanz and the illiterate under-educated and poverty stricken that would really profit from Democratic hegemony. Help them!
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Cal Gal
May 20, 2010 3:05 PM
Great. The Investment Banking Protection Act of 2010 moves on.
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Shrubbit
May 20, 2010 3:10 PM
Bill will be strengthened in conference with the House. Mark it.
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FusionX
May 20, 2010 3:21 PM in reply to Shrubbit
Actually no. The House version is weaker than the current Senate version. So I don't think that it would become any stronger.
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Shrubbit
May 20, 2010 3:31 PM in reply to FusionX
It ain't over yet is all I'm saying. I bet we see strengthening. This re: Merkeley/Levin, for one. Not a perfect solution but prob will, hopefully will get the job done to insert the Volker rule.
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JEP07
May 20, 2010 4:49 PM in reply to Shrubbit
"I bet we see strengthening."
If we can beat the pundits and take more of a majority in November, you can say that on a much grander scale.
From the HC bill to this project, if we can get more progressives in-House, we will see how much this foundation can be built on.
If we let ourselves splinter too much, and teabag ourselves into factions, that won't happen. But if we start thinking like a unified party and work together in 2010, instead of digging for differences between our big-tent members, we might see somethig new.
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markg8
May 20, 2010 8:41 PM in reply to JEP07
Can I get an amen!
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Mrwilson1
May 20, 2010 3:12 PM
They still have amendments to add to it, but at least they can get this started.
This one will bury you Rep's. And thanks to the Tea Party Elect Sen Brown the new Dem senator
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GTFOOH
May 20, 2010 3:12 PM
So Dodd raises $3 million from the banking industry, even though he is not running again and gets to keep it. This is his last sell out move, before he sails out.
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Cal Gal
May 20, 2010 3:14 PM in reply to GTFOOH
Which investment bank do you think he'll land at?
I'm guessing Goldman Sachs.
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Mateo123
May 20, 2010 3:46 PM in reply to GTFOOH
He doesn't get to keep it. Some people on this board just make crap up. No one can keep any campaign contribution for their own personal use. It's illegal and has been illegal for a long time.
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Cool Blue Reason
May 20, 2010 3:58 PM in reply to Mateo123
Yes, but... Evil banksters! Goldman Sachs! Shiny object!
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JEP07
May 20, 2010 4:51 PM in reply to Cool Blue Reason
not working...
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Unmitigated Audacity
May 20, 2010 3:17 PM
Without reinstating Glass-Steagall and banning derivatives speculation, this Dodd legislation will be worse than useless. Like lemmings diving over a cliff in droves, Obama and the Dem senators (except a few like Cantwell, Feingold, Dorgan and Sanders (I)) are committed to political expediancy, ignoring the devastation that will result from failing to tackle painful, yet necessary reform. The Democratic Party will come out of this looking worse than Herbert Hoover; much worse, as the breakdown collapse we are at the edge of will be the start of a new dark age, rather than a simple depression.
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runfastandwin
May 20, 2010 3:31 PM in reply to Unmitigated Audacity
Well it's ok though because the rapture is right around the corner. Seriously, you are predicting the end of the world because the bill doesn't reinstate Glass Steagall?
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JZ
May 20, 2010 3:54 PM in reply to runfastandwin
Am I at TPM or firedoglake? It's like HCR redux. If the bill isn't perfect, we're taking our ball and going home.
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Cool Blue Reason
May 20, 2010 4:02 PM in reply to JZ
Dude, you're never going to get any cred around here with appeals to rationality and incrementalism. That's just so totally... impure.
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The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve
May 20, 2010 4:36 PM in reply to Cool Blue Reason
Not true. Takes two sides to have a completely inane civil war, and one of them will always give you cred no matter what you say.
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lotl
May 20, 2010 5:12 PM in reply to Cool Blue Reason
The problem with incrementalism, though is that it usually drags on too long, as too many people say, well, we got that done, no need to push any more for another, oh 5 years, 10 years. Let's keep procrastinating. Well, there's eventually going to come a point where you need drastic measures. Frankly, the one issue (OT, I know) where we really can't keep fcuking around is the environment. The rest will all be moot in the relatively near future anyway if we don't act firmly, now, on that problem. We talk about Repubs eating their own, but then I see all these incrementalists deriding the "ideologically pure" and sounding smugly confident of your own ideologies. All I'm saying is, there has to be a point between yes we must have everything this instant (unless it truly is crucial) and let's--once again--be content for whatever they want to hand us, thereby letting them know they can keep doing so.
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mrut
May 20, 2010 5:37 PM in reply to lotl
I support tough financial reform but prefer something to nothing.
My problem with your position is not the policy you advocate but rather your (well, not yours alone) tendency to minimize the reality and strength of the opposition to important reform. It's not just a matter of will; there is real, deep opposition to reform in the financial sector, as there is to healthcare reform.
All sorts of compromises and horse-trading has to take place to make changes, especially big ones that threaten major industries. And there is a need to pass more than one piece of legislation, so compromises and vote-trading have to take place on future legislation.
We just lost a vote to lift the measley cap on liability for the oil companies. My (not too clear) point is that we need a lot of votes on a lot of big issues, and we can't afford to get hung up on any one of them because they're all important.
That's why I prefer incrementalism to nothing.
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lotl
May 20, 2010 6:12 PM in reply to mrut
"My problem with your position is not the policy you advocate but rather your (well, not yours alone) tendency to minimize the reality and strength of the opposition to important reform. It's not just a matter of will; there is real, deep opposition to reform in the financial sector, as there is to healthcare reform."
Thank you for presuming I'm ignorant. That's a rather patronizing statement. I'm fully aware of the strength of the opposition. But neither am I going to weep and moan and say it can't be overcome, so don't bother fighting it. You obviously change nothing with that mentality.
Actually, I think the bigger problem is there are too many "average Americans" being too complacent and not wanting to think about "politics", and not realizing how deeply all these things really affect their lives. They're still too conditioned to think that the status quo is the good old American dream we should all be happy with. "Our government and our corporations would never reeeaaallly hurt us, right?" Many have had their eyes opened in that regard, but are still reluctant to take action. Signing petitions and things is too "political" or "extremist." Inertia is tough to overcome, also.
As I've said before, I'm torn in two directions. On the one hand, I recognize that a "something" is better than a "nothing." I realize that adults often have to compromise to get along in life. On the other hand, at what point do we finally say, as Darcy mentions, the bar of expectation is too low? That we (via our reps) are conceding too much? That we're good dogs, rolling over and surrending? That we're weak and ineffective, a bunch of procrastinators, or simply a bunch of self-centered bastards playing the game to boost our own bank accounts?
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Cornelius
May 20, 2010 5:25 PM in reply to Cool Blue Reason
Incrementalism? Now that's funny. You mean like a turtle trying to cross a freeway? Well, I'm with you all the way as long as you can guarantee me no cars or 18 wheelers are coming down the road for the next 20 fucking years! Time for audacity, enough with the hope bullshit. Give me Feingold and Cantwell over Obama any day.
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Tanjaoui
May 20, 2010 5:47 PM in reply to Cornelius
Incrementalism is tolerable depending on whether and how long you've been unemployed, how many mouths you have to feed, how long you've been uninsured, whether you were able to make rent after defaulting on your home mortgage, whether you lost a son or a daughter in Iraq/Afghanistan...and a lot of other stuff. If you don't have any of those problems, cool, I'm happy for you. Doesn't mean others aren't in that position, and really sweating it. There are real, human costs to policy decisions.
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Cornelius
May 20, 2010 6:03 PM in reply to Tanjaoui
You just answered my argument! You see, one of those 18 wheelers I mentioned is going to be driven (one day) by a Republican and he's gotta put the pedal to the medal and that turtle is gonna become a thin dime. Time for the Dems to put the pedal to the medal. Now! And spare me the misery. I have as many war stories as anyone here! And that's exactly why I blog. This is one of those rare golden goose opportunities. And all your "hope" ain't gonna cut it.
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Tanjaoui
May 20, 2010 6:08 PM in reply to Cornelius
I was trying to agree with you.
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Cornelius
May 20, 2010 6:48 PM in reply to Tanjaoui
my apologies. didn't see it at 1st read. trying to make dinner.
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Flybynite
May 20, 2010 6:23 PM in reply to Cornelius
It's "metal", by the way.
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Cornelius
May 20, 2010 6:49 PM in reply to Flybynite
yes it is.
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FreemanW
May 20, 2010 6:08 PM in reply to Cool Blue Reason
So I missed the memo.
Hope is out. We're going with incremental?
Okay then.
Yes We Can . . . incrementally!
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Tanjaoui
May 20, 2010 6:21 PM in reply to FreemanW
yes, in bi-partisan fashion. Rock ON!
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Unmitigated Audacity
May 20, 2010 3:56 PM in reply to runfastandwin
I'm saying the physical wealth of world civilization cannot continue to be looted at an accelerating rate by the monetarist empire. We are at the breaking point now. Without bringing back FDR's reforms and rebuilding our infrastructure, the world will devolve rapidly into a breakdown crisis, with attendant violence, chaos and depopulation. It will happen more quickly than people believe it to be possible.
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Cool Blue Reason
May 20, 2010 4:15 PM in reply to Unmitigated Audacity
Dude, if you're going to get all Malthusian on us, you've got to go whole hog. FDR-era banking regulations would be but a trifling band-aid, compared to the shitstorm of social, economic, and ecological collapse that we must necessarily have coming our way if we assume (as you seem to) that the time-tested capacity of our civilization to innovate, adapt, and just plain muddle through has been suddenly arrested at this late hour.
In other words, you might consider reassessing just how much is at stake at this particular moment in history. Otherwise, you should definitely get the hell off this forum and go back to stocking your SHTF bunker and tilling your piece of arable land.
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Unmitigated Audacity
May 20, 2010 4:46 PM in reply to Cool Blue Reason
Dark ages happen, dude. Many times thruout history, to civilizations that lose their moral and intellectual bearings. We have witnessed 40 years of vast stupidity and moral rot. Allowing the Friedmanite deregulation, deindustrialization, globalization and the wholesale Ponzi-fication of the City of London and Wall Street, rampant speculation in derivatives, blah, blah. I am a city dweller; no plans to ride this thing out Mad Max-style or survivalist-style. My commitment is to fixing this shit, for my daughter and her progeny, if not for myself.
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Unmitigated Audacity
May 20, 2010 4:51 PM in reply to Unmitigated Audacity
My intention is to be anti-Malthusian, in fact.
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Cool Blue Reason
May 20, 2010 5:39 PM in reply to Unmitigated Audacity
I hear you. Then let us see how it goes, and get on with the hard work of minimizing the volume of shit through which we will all muddle.
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Unmitigated Audacity
May 20, 2010 6:36 PM in reply to Cool Blue Reason
Ha! (rummaging thru closets looking for hip waders...)
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lotl
May 20, 2010 5:37 PM in reply to Cool Blue Reason
"if we assume (as you seem to) that the time-tested capacity of our civilization to innovate, adapt, and just plain muddle through has been suddenly arrested at this late hour."
translation: We'll survive, even if we have to subsist and put up with a lot of shit for a long time, cause we're Merkans, by golly, the greatest country in the world. Wave the flag and God Bless Merka.
Talk about a band-aid on a hemorrhage. Maybe you didn't intend to sound like you're just throwing platitudes out there, but that's how it comes across. To me, anyway.
Also, let's not forget that a lot of our "innovations" are what got us into the messes we're in today.
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EH
May 20, 2010 4:55 PM in reply to Unmitigated Audacity
I'm saying the physical wealth of world civilization cannot continue to be looted at an accelerating rate by the monetarist empire.
Sure it can. Just watch.
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Max Thrax
May 20, 2010 5:31 PM in reply to Unmitigated Audacity
I don't know whether this bill as it is now will cause the 2nd Dark Age, but historically speaking if the US goes down, and it just might, you fooling yourself that it couldn't happen.
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Tanjaoui
May 20, 2010 5:50 PM in reply to Max Thrax
Yes, there's a lot of American exceptionalism going around. Weimar Republic? It could never happen here. Our institutions are just too strong.
...Personally, I'm not so sure.
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Unmitigated Audacity
May 20, 2010 6:57 PM in reply to Max Thrax
That's what I'm saying. Of course I don't mean that the failure of this legislation will cause a dark age directly. Many years of many, many bad decisions have led us to this point. But we are at this point now, and half-assed non-solutions will no longer cut it. We need to be as bold as FDR was.
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scritch
May 20, 2010 3:20 PM
When I said that I fully expected the Dem's to cave on real banking reform, just as they caved on real health care reform, he was incredulous, believing that they couldn't fail to reform our system because our financial state is in such dire straits. Hah! My prediction is right on track. At least my senator, Maria Cantwell, has the guts to stand up for what is right.
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Shrubbit
May 20, 2010 3:23 PM
Are people forgetting that this bill can be -- and will be made stronger in conference with the House? This is not final passage.
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acanuck
May 20, 2010 3:58 PM in reply to Shrubbit
The House has already passed its own, weaker version of this legislation. Where exactly is the pressure to strengthen it in conference going to come from? If anything, it will be diluted.
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Shrubbit
May 20, 2010 4:45 PM in reply to acanuck
Merkeley/Levin is still going to be voted on in debate. It's attached to the Brownback amendment. There's a similar amendment as Brownback in the House bill so if the Senate passes Brownback with Merkeley/Levin before final vote in the Senate, then it's likely to stay in the final bill. It's a little confusing but explained better here.
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May 20, 2010 3:26 PM
They should've waited until everything was ironed out. Real banking reform needs to happen, not some bs reform with a promise of more to come later.
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agio
May 20, 2010 3:26 PM
It's sad to see Democrats miss this historic opportunity to do something meaningful to reign in the abuses of Wall Street...
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May 21, 2010 3:12 AM in reply to agio
Now that's a comment that deserves a hearty "Amen!"
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Tony C
May 20, 2010 3:34 PM
Feingold said something to the effect of "Will it stop another collapse ?". He doesn't believe it will and that is why he voted no.
If the legislation isn't going to prevent the very thing it's designed to prevent, WTF ?
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AnswerFrog
May 20, 2010 4:01 PM in reply to Tony C
Yeah, much better to have NOTHING and hope that a smaller majority next year will do even less.
Or better yet, give the Republicans a chance to add more crap to it and water down the good parts. whenever you find yourself voting in lockstep with Jim Demint, something is wrong.
Thanks for nothing, Russ.
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hollywood
May 20, 2010 4:08 PM in reply to AnswerFrog
Why the hell is it if rethuglicans threaten to take down a bill it always gets watered down to their liking but if a liberal threatens to take down a bill they get their nipples twisted by their Democratic 'friends' ???
Thanks Russ! Thanks for sticking to the truth when everyone else swallows the big lie!
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The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve
May 20, 2010 4:43 PM in reply to hollywood
Because as good as we can get now is as good as we're going to be able to get any time before 2013 at the earliest. That's the hard, ugly reality they have to deal with.
This would, of course, be the perfect place to insert the completely unproveable, empirically dubious "if only they'd been doing exactly what I've been saying they should do and been ideologically pure, all the independents would would be lining up to vote for them and they'd surely double their majorities in the mideterms" nonresponsive rejoinder. So consider it done.
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AnswerFrog
May 20, 2010 4:57 PM in reply to The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve
And the fact is Republicans were viewing yesterday's failed vote as an opportunity to introduce lots of crap.
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destor23
May 20, 2010 5:06 PM in reply to The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve
But this isn't as good as we could have gotten now.
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Tanjaoui
May 20, 2010 5:31 PM in reply to destor23
I agree 100%, but that's a judgment call. We keep coming up against this 'what is realistic right now' wall. Certain commentators are always taking the 'mature parent vs. needy child' view, calling for patience and slow progress. Others of us keep saying (and believing) that this is a kind of complacence that is going to blow up in our faces, eventually. We've muddled through for a while, but at some point centrism and incrementalism aren't going to meet all our immediate financial (educational, infrastructure, environmental, political, demographic) needs. I feel as if we're moving much more slowly than problems are accruing, and that this can't hold.
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lotl
May 20, 2010 5:48 PM in reply to Tanjaoui
Agreed. You've put it more articulately than I was able to.
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lotl
May 20, 2010 5:44 PM in reply to The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve
But it doesn't do them much good to win a majority and therefore a mandate, introduce good legislation, and then let the Rethugs roll all over them, either. Then they get voted out for being weak and collapsing, bearing out the recent history of the Democratic party. They need to show they've got a pair and fight.
I guess it's a bit of a catch-22
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Cornelius
May 20, 2010 5:06 PM in reply to hollywood
Yes, we're getting played again. Why is the expectation bar always set so fucking low? The Democrats have all the cover they need and simply offer up weak tea - drink it you'll die of thirst. Or drink arsenic served up by the Republicans. I know, I know, half a loaf,... blah, blah, blah.
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hollywood
May 20, 2010 5:26 PM in reply to Cornelius
Dodd seems to be the bad guy here. He had no chance of getting reelected because of his own cozy personal deals with the banking gods everyone seems so afraid to offend. So with no downside to doing the right thing by the vast majority of little people in this half assed 'democracy' Dodd still sucks the banking teat and we all get mostly screwed again! Now that corporations are 'people' and PEOPLE are 'collateral damage' I think this experiment in democracy has officially begun to rot.
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badgerellen
May 20, 2010 3:39 PM
Glass Steagall should be reinstated and the provisions on derivative trading should be strengthened. I also would like to see clearer limits on ATM fees, state regulation of credit card interest rates, and payday lending practices, but that is probably hoping for too much. However, at some point, the perfect becomes the enemy of the good The Senate legislation is definitely an improvement over doing nothing, even in its current form. Whether it is enough is hard to say.
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May 20, 2010 3:41 PM
If anybody thinks the "much-needed" amendments will be added or it will keep pertinent language in, reference the abortion funding language demand that it be in writing before they would vote for the health care bill! If Democrats don't trust their colleagues, how can we??!!
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May 20, 2010 3:50 PM
This bill is much stronger than anybody has anticipated that it will be. The country should be very happy that it's this strong considering the political atmosphere.
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Tanjaoui
May 20, 2010 5:38 PM in reply to Eric
Not sure I understand. The political atmosphere couldn't be worse for banks, right? The very term 'bail out', repeated over and over in the MSM, screams 'unfair'. This is really about Dem leadership not wanting to alienate big campaign contributors - banks.
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sadmaawk
May 20, 2010 3:54 PM
I wonder if the idiots we send to Washington ever passed a bill the way it was written. Seems to me they don't think this stuff through very well if every bill has to be supplemented with half a dozen amendments. I'm for just scrapping it if it has to be amended, as it must be seriously flawed.
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Jaycal
May 20, 2010 4:50 PM in reply to sadmaawk
I'd like a stronger bill too and I think you're on board that the only way we could get this done is jettioning this messy 'representative democracy' and move to dictatorship. Far more efficient for getting your own priorities passed without watering them down with polluting ideas from outside your own head.
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bondwooley
May 20, 2010 3:58 PM
The Dems Stopped a Filibuster!!! It's about time.
This video is my commentary on the idiocy of this Senate ritual:
http://bit.ly/9iegrc
Coongrats, Dems!
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destor23
May 20, 2010 4:04 PM in reply to bondwooley
Yeah, good job. You beat your own side! This is not a victory over a filibuster it's a victory over progressive ideas that had bipartisan support but that the president, once again, failed to get behind.
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Dorn76
May 20, 2010 4:19 PM in reply to destor23
I would like to hear someone mount a defense of Obama's handling of this bill so far.
I see no eartly reason why he couldn't get behind the Volcker Rule at the very least. I think I may have missed his explanation for why he's now against it....Or was there no explanation?
What happened to showing your cred on Finance by saying, "I listen to people like Paul Volcker."?
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destor23
May 20, 2010 4:35 PM in reply to Dorn76
I thought the defense was that Volcker thought the Derivitatives regs went too far and he's definitely against bringing Glass Steagall back. Volcker is for some restrictions on bank proprietary trading but not on customer trading. Of course, as long as banks trade for customers they will engage in prop trades as well as part of their "market making" role, as Goldman recently put it.
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Cornelius
May 20, 2010 5:31 PM in reply to destor23
LOL - "You beat your own side"! What a clusterfuck.
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FreemanW
May 20, 2010 6:21 PM in reply to Cornelius
Obama got himself elected fucking President, a black man in this racist land; and yet, given the current and ubiqutous social mindset of hostility toward the banking industry, he couldn't even be bothered coming out for blood and crucifying the GOP over their blatant corporate protectionism?
This amounts to falling out of a boat and NOT hitting the water.
Democrats overcome GOP Filibuster . . .
and BP overcomes gravity and spews oil upwards.
Harry Reid is a nincompoop, and Obama is either close behind or a corporate/banking whore. Chose one.
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petitepete
May 20, 2010 3:59 PM
As the bills has wound it's way through the Senate, rather than weakening it as happened with the Health Care Reform, this one actually got much tougher. I am glad that Dodd is retiring because he has been nothing but a hindrance through all of this. I am just praying that Blanche Lincoln's derivatives regulations remain intact! That is a very important set of regulations and MUST be included if we are to avoid another disaster like we had in 2008!
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AnswerFrog
May 20, 2010 4:59 PM in reply to petitepete
Dodd was a huge disappointment.
Retiring, you would have thought he would have just done the right thing.
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Tanjaoui
May 20, 2010 6:00 PM in reply to petitepete
By some accounts, Lincoln's amendment was a sop to anti-bailout populist sentiment, and that she was hoping, once she won the Democratic primary, that it would go away/get watered down. She didn't win the primary, outright. So...problem.
I'd say there's very little chance it will pass without being watered down. Obama is clearly against it, as is party leadership.
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Dorn76
May 20, 2010 4:17 PM
The bill should include the Volcker rule. Given the support of Sanders and Levin for cloture, I'm hopeful something is in the works.
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RKT
May 20, 2010 4:30 PM
As with health care, it appears the Senate will now debate toothless financial "reform" legislation, likely to be watered down even more in debate -- i.e., "reform" in name only.
Notice how this is happening. The Republicans, of course, strictly adhere to the Party of No strategy, partly to frustrate Obama -- but more likely to serve their corporate owners.
Republican recalcitrance makes it easy for the Democrats to justify "compromise." They work really, really hard to create the illusion they're working to find workable compromise for the People, when it seems they are actually working to dilute proposed legislation -- in order to better serve their corporate owners.
And tragically, the first official act of whomever we elect to Congress will be to get on the corporate dole -- and will then be compelled their deep pocket corporate owners.
The next time someone asserts we should literally return to the considerations of the founding fathers, remind them the founding fathers never contemplated corporate ownership of Congress. What else did they not contemplate?
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Cornelius
May 20, 2010 4:37 PM
rearranging the deck chairs. Double dip comin' at ya!
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AnswerFrog
May 20, 2010 5:09 PM
Anytime the Dems succeed, leave it to the left to cast it as a "huge defeat". Why is this?
Republicans tend to gloat triumphalist over anything they can spin as a victory, no matter how tenuous. Liberals seem to love wallowing in their own failure and impotence, even when they achieve big things.
Historical health care bill after 60 years of trying? "Missed opportunity"
Biggest financial re-regulation since the New Deal era - "rearranging the deck chairs"
I wonder if this kind of kneejerk negativity, where every Dem leader is a 'betrayer' and 'failure', and every bill should be "killed", helps the long march of progressive ideas or hurts it.
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hollywood
May 20, 2010 5:38 PM in reply to AnswerFrog
What the fukking hell was so historic about the health care 'reform'?
The entire civilized industrial world has for generations now considered the health of it's citizens, ALL OF IT'S CITIZENS, to be a basic human right and made it the law of the land. Americans however consider the health of it's fellow citizens as a profit opportunity like no other "pay me everything you have or die". The best 'reform' we could accomplish with huge Democratic majorities is to throw hundreds of billions of tax dollars at insurance corporations and beg them for shitty expensive "coverage'. Canada, England, France, Germany, Japan, and on and on all cover everyone at about HALF the cost and no one goes bankrupt when they get sick.
If what passed here is not a god damned fukking MISSED OPPORTUNITY then what the hell is ???
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AnswerFrog
May 20, 2010 5:54 PM in reply to hollywood
You're right. We could have seized the historic opportunity to do absolutely nothing and start from scratch! Indeed, this is what our good progressive friend John McCain was saying.
(Fun fact: Democrats have tried since FDR to create a national health care system; I guess this makes it "historic"!)
I get the funny feeling that the Kill the Bill types on the left are merely aiding and abetting the Kill the Bill types on the right....
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Tanjaoui
May 20, 2010 6:18 PM in reply to AnswerFrog
For centrists, I get the sense it's all a game, and issues are divorced from issues of equality, human dignity, war and peace, economic and environmental sustainability.
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hollywood
May 20, 2010 6:31 PM in reply to AnswerFrog
Who said do nothing? Who said start from scratch? Who said kill the bill? Nice straw man set up but it's YOU who need to deal with reality on what did and DID NOT happen. Just like financial reform is watered down to not actually SOLVE THE PROBLEM just appear to be moving that direction.
What happened was essentially sucking money out of Medicare to fund health care coupons for lower income Americans. That's it. The outrageously high priced shitty coverage system is not only completely intact but is now pumped up with 30 million new coupon holding customers.
A PUBLIC OPTION was very very close to reality and would actually have been the creation of a 'national health care system' THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN HISTORIC! But conservative Democrats who took millions in cash from insurance companies killed it. (Lieberman, Lincoln) Milking Medicare to feed cash to hugely profitable monopolies for skyrocketing premiums on shitty coverage IS A SICK FUKKING JOKE!
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Unmitigated Audacity
May 20, 2010 7:04 PM in reply to hollywood
Word. This Finance "reform" is more of the same smoke and mirrors.
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yinyin
May 20, 2010 7:33 PM
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des
May 20, 2010 7:47 PM
Honestly, the lack of historical perspective by certain posters is mind-boggling!
Do those who complain about how "weak" the WSR bill is, or bitch about the spineless, or worse, complicit Democratic Senators, have ANY idea what it took to get Glass-Steagall passed? A depression, that's what! 25% unemployement, that amount or more of underemployed workers, NO unemployement insurance! More farm foreclosures than buyers (if the farmers didn't stop the auctions with shotguns, that is)! Elderly people eating out of garbage cans. Malnutrition rampant among children. Increases in all disease rates because of that malnutrition. Hospitals, schools and colleges closing from lack of funds. And the position of black Americans was even worse. That's where the citizens of this country were in 1932.
And there were still fights in Congress over the funding for the WPA and the PWA. Cost too much. The NRA (no, not THAT NRA) was just another attempt at socialism (actually, it was more akin to theoretical fascism, as opposed to what Mussolini practiced). Social Security was severely limited. The TVA and other reclamation/power projects weren't nearly as extensive as their backers wished; something to do with getting "something" passed, I understand. Even Glass-Steagall was a compromise, with many ideas proposed recently in the Senate also being proposed then, too.
The economic crisis we have to deal with today is no where near as bad as 1932, thankfully. Yet there still was "politics" in the drafting, passing (and sometimes, re-passing) of legislation. Many liberal/progressive bills were watered down to get enough votes; some never made it out of committee. Just as it is today.
If it was that hard to get "progressive" legislation passed in 1932-38, when Republicans held 30 seats or less in the Senate and the House aisle separating Dems from Repubs had to be moved to accomodate the massive Democratic majority; if it was that hard then with a possible revolution hovering on the horizon, why in Heaven's name do you think it's so easy today?
There ARE members of Congress who obviously deserve our scorn; Lincoln, Bayh, the entire Republican caucus; but, unless you have served there and are fully versed on exactly what it takes to get legislation drafted, through the various committees and then introduced on the floor, I would advise a bit less hyper-ventilating and a bit more appreciation of what DOES get through!
Children nowadays, really...
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May 20, 2010 8:49 PM
Any substantial reforms for Wall Street and the American financial system will be impossible so long as candidates continue to readily accept bundles of Big Bank donations.
http://sunstateactivist.org/campaigncorner/?p=302
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Jeremiah
May 25, 2010 1:44 PM
A couple of Dems voted against cloture because they believed this bill isn't strong enough, and they were right, but wrong in their tactics.
Cloture is not the time to correct a weak bill. Get it into debate, when amendments can be submitted. Even if they are unsuccessful, it's time to pass a bill, and then strengthen it later.
It is the same argument in favor of passing an inadequate health care bill. Get it passed, and then add a public option next year.
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