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Clinton Library Releases Thousands Of Kagan Documents


Clinton-era Elena Kagan

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The Clinton Library this afternoon released thousands of documents related to Supreme Court nominee Elena Kagan's service on President Clinton's Domestic Policy Council in the 1990s, including memos related to hot-button issues of abortion and gays serving in the military.

Members of the Senate Judiciary Committee have requested more information given that Kagan, currently the solicitor general of the United States, has no judicial record. She was dean of the Harvard Law School until she took the current job in the Obama administration. Her confirmation hearings begin June 28.

The documents can be found here.

TPM will be looking through them, and would love readers' help as well. If you see anything interesting, email us or drop a note in the comments below.

One nugget we found was an argument from outside groups for making birth control a commonplace item covered by insurance. Several groups were writing Kagan, then-chief of staff John Podesta and others about the issue. Her handwritten notes appear throughout the batch (found here), and at one point on a June 1998 note, she made a notation about the anniversary of Roe v. Wade.

Later in the batch of memos is a David Broder column on the issue. Then as you can see below, an exchange between Kagan and another staffer.



In another Kagan writes a handwritten note to a colleague that "supposedly the VP is interested" in the issue.

The memos are pretty comprehensive, and even include a hurricane safety comic book.

Judiciary Chairman Sen. Pat Leahy (D-VT) said in a statement the release of the records means the panel "has received more information from the administration than was made available at this point in the confirmation process for either the Roberts or Alito nominations."

He said the administration is working to offer "an unprecedented volume of information relating to Elena Kagan's work in the Clinton administration." Read our Kagan coverage here.

Here's the description from the Little Rock, Arkansas-based presidential library's Web site:

Elena Kagan served in two positions during the Clinton Administration. She was Associate White House Counsel from 1995 - 1996 and Deputy Assistant to the President for Domestic Policy and Deputy Director of the Domestic Policy Council (DPC) from 1997-1999. The Clinton Presidential records being opened today are from Kagan's time with the Domestic Policy Council and contains files created and received by Kagan. The files include records concerning domestic policy topics such as AIDS, budget appropriations, campaign finance reform, education, health, labor, race, tobacco, and welfare. The records include memoranda, correspondence, articles, and reports.

Please be aware that two boxes (69 and 70) of Elena Kagan's material that were filed with her Domestic Policy Council records are not being released with this opening. The records in these boxes primarily concern her work as Associate Counsel to the President. As such, these two boxes will be released with her Counsel's Office records.

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June 4, 2010 1:29 PM   

I thought that the precedent was that no documents need be released ever that might shed light on what a nominee thinks.

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June 4, 2010 1:45 PM    in reply to libdevil

That precedent only applies to repuke nominees. Dem nominees have to let it all hang out. It's that old double standard.

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June 4, 2010 1:48 PM    in reply to libdevil

You are correct. Whatever documents were released will keep her corporatist fealty under wraps until it can be unleashed on the nation with a fury. Who'd of thunk?

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June 4, 2010 4:42 PM    in reply to libdevil

When was THAT precedent set? Not doubting you, but I am in need of being educated on that.

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June 5, 2010 1:29 PM    in reply to acriticalthinker

Roberts and Alito both - huge chunks of their Bush era documents were withheld to a point of making their most recent work history a black hole. Similarly when Bybee was nominated to the 10th Circuit court of appeals almsot none of his work at the OLC was released (including his involvement in the infamous torture memos).

There are narrow legal arguments supporting withholding such information on executive privilege grounds, but a) the Bush administration took a much broader view of the privilege and b) doing it in the context of vetting someone for lifetime appointments pretty much makes informed advice and consent impossible to provide. Especially after the Bybee memos became public, I think there will be tremendous pressure to produce administration work product in future confirmations where the appointee has served in the executive branch.

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June 5, 2010 4:28 PM    in reply to calbearinillinois

Thanks for the start at answering my question to libdevil. What sorts of documents were among the "chunks" of documents that were not produced? You hinted at documents for which perhaps executive privilege or maybe attorney client privilege were claimed. Are you saying that those privileges should be disregarded? I think that in that regard a consistent standard or "precedent" is appropriate.

In the cases of Roberts and Alito, both had served as judges and there were an abundance of appellate opinions to ascertain there performance and respect for the constitution, statutes, and precedents. In Kegan's case, there is no such "paper trail". Of course, "privileges" should be observed to the same extent they were in the cases of Roberts, Alito, Sotomayor, Ginsberg, etc.

I am not aware of the precedent that "NO documents need be released ever that might shed light on what a nominee thinks". Surely you do not buy into that bit of exaggeration on the part of libdevil (which MichaelA apparently accepts as a given), do you? THAT was the so-called precedent I was wondering about.

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June 6, 2010 2:01 PM    in reply to acriticalthinker

What I find most amusing about trolls or 99.9% of conservative bloggers in here is the genetically proven lack of rigor you maintain in either stretching what little facts you possess, or not attempting any pursuit of them on your own to create a viable and coherent argument. You have to be one of the most lazy and bloviating turds around. Like cleverbulldog & indiepro (who cant spell or write intelligibly unless its a cut & paste train wreck) you just go on and on and on. Youre obviously using a computer so fucking google something and find out on your own. For once. Or, in the immortal words of FreeRider, "STFU."

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June 9, 2010 9:21 AM    in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe

That is a fine photo of you. Sorry you do not appreciate my comments. Feel free to ignore them.

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June 9, 2010 9:25 AM    in reply to acriticalthinker

(yawn...) whatever.

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June 9, 2010 11:33 AM    in reply to acriticalthinker

Actually it is quite entertaining to reply to your witless diarhhea here because we can always count on you to scurry into your closet to sulk for a few more days.

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June 4, 2010 2:51 PM   

Are Republicans going to complain that this is too much to read?

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June 4, 2010 3:17 PM    in reply to ohyeathatsright

I think most of them could at least plow through the hurricane comic book, perhaps with a little help from some grown-ups.

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June 4, 2010 3:19 PM    in reply to ohyeathatsright

LOL!!

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June 4, 2010 3:36 PM   

Let's see what the documents reveal. I expect that they will show a petal to the metal idealogical leftist, like the other liberal justices.

She will have some "splainin'" (that's a little Ricky Ricardo lingo) to do to libs, though, about her siding with the majority in the recent Miranda waiver case, Berghuis v. Thompkins, where a murder suspect was given his Miranda warnings but the suspect did not tell police that he wanted to end questioning or unamiguously invoked his right to remain silent. Police continued to ask questions, he answered some, remained silent for others, until he finally answered a question with an incriminating answer.

According to the Boston Globe:

"Supreme Court nominee Kagan had sided with the police in this case. As solicitor general, she told the Supreme Court that the Constitution "does not require that the police interpret ambiguous statements as invocations of Miranda rights."
"An unambiguous-invocation requirement for the right to remain silent and terminate questioning strikes the appropriate balance between protecting the suspect's rights and permitting valuable police investigation," Kagan said in court papers."

Of course, if confirmed, Kagan will no doubt join fellow Obama appointed, Sotomayor, and the other two liberal justices in ideological and activist decisions that favor criminals against victims, as well as other parties and causes favored by liberals, in the face of the constitution, statutes, and precedents.

Sotomayor was joined by the other 3 liberal justices in a dissent that illustrates the vapidity of liberal jurisprudence.

"Today's decision turns Miranda upside down," Justice Sotomayor wrote, joined by Justices John Paul Stevens, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer. "Criminal suspects must now unambiguously invoke their right to remain silent—which, counterintuitively, requires them to speak."

THAT is a ridiculous statement. A criminal suspect can invoke their right to remain silent by ...... get this----remaining silent!! The right to remain silent refers to the right to remain silent as to matters that might be incriminating. It does not mean that your right to remain silent is violated if you verbally say "I invoke my right to remain silent" or "I am not going to say anything" or "I want to end this interrogation". Saying any of the above requires police to end their interrogation. Saying any of those things is incriminating, and as I said before, it is NOT necessary to say ANYTHING to invoke the right to remain silent (although it IS necessary to say or write something to bring QUESTIONING to an end).

All that is necessary, in the absence of a statement that would bring questioning to an end, is for the suspect to remain silent. Nothing "counter-intuitive" about that----except to a liberal.

Contrast Sotomayor's statement with the following from Anthony Kennedy's opinion:

"If Thompkins wanted to remain silent, he could have said nothing in response to [the detective's] questions, or he could have unambiguously invoked his Miranda rights and ended the interrogation"

What part of that is so hard for the liberal justices to understand, and why do they go out of their way to disregard the constitution to advance their liberal agenda?

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June 4, 2010 3:42 PM    in reply to acriticalthinker

Correction: "Saying any of those things is NOT incriminating..."

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June 4, 2010 3:53 PM    in reply to acriticalthinker

I was hoping you had left us never to return. No such luck.

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June 5, 2010 8:01 PM    in reply to chameleon

Yes, I understand. For you, ignorance is bliss.

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June 6, 2010 2:04 PM    in reply to acriticalthinker

For you, bloviation and an inflated sense of self worth is nirvana.

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June 6, 2010 2:35 PM    in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe

He can't help him/her self Marinus since he/she is a self loathing ex-liberal and I have called him out on his/her issues before.

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June 6, 2010 3:01 PM    in reply to larsvanness

No doubt. What's new, Marine?

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June 6, 2010 8:00 PM    in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe

Believe it or not my wife and I have spent all afternoon studying every aspect of the this Berguis vs. Thompkins case that the self loathing former liberal now known as "acriticalthinker" cited. Don't ask me why. Morbid curiosity on my part more than anything else. But my wife is a legal beagle and very much interested in the original petition filed before the 6th Circuit Court on the part of Thompson and that Court's subsequent response. We have both come to the conclusion that Kaga as Solicitor General was just doing the job that she was hired to do when she filed her amicus curae breif before the SCOTUS even tho she was not compelled to do so. Now you don't necessarily have to agree with us here but we think her position does'nt compromise her credentials as a lib/progressive or even as a moderate. I'm still interested in your take on this if you care to offer a viewpoint with out all the drudgery of tracking down the pertinent (yikes) links. I'm going to run this by chameleon in the morning and get her opinion as well. This is what I get for allowing my self to be baited by that fool. A little wiser at the expense of an afternoon wasted at the beach. Thanks for asking and Semper Fi Marinus.

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June 6, 2010 8:18 PM    in reply to larsvanness

After reading Kennedy's opinion, Sotomayor's dissent, and the 6th Circuit take on it I have to agree with your take. (http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/08-1470.ZS.html)
(http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/08a0409p-06.pdf)
Why would this impugn Kagan? Why would it detract from her credentials? Why, if filing this amicus, would she be subject to scrutinization? Those are questions for the asshat known as 'acriticalthinker' of whom I beleive is just someone who uses their laptop when inducing inner-cranial pressures when shitting as they forgot to keep a paperback in the head so they could grab something quick. Lars, you have to know the trolls in here are the laziest fucking cut & paste bastards that ever breathed. Not one has an original thought or can handle a coherent argument without drooling like Patrick Star (see SpongeBob). Total pogues. Semper Gumby (always flexible). MvdL

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June 6, 2010 8:41 PM    in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe

LOL...sometimes Marinus I believe that you move in mysterious ways, we may not know who you are nor what you mean but I'm glad to have you on our side. I alled the "asshat" (too lazy to type "acriticalthinker" here) out on the quotes that he attributed to Kagan as I couldn't find a reference anywhere. I really hate having to respond to that idiot but like you and so many others here I feel compelled to do so on occasion.

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June 6, 2010 9:28 PM    in reply to larsvanness

I'm a kindred soul, retired ('96) Navy and proud of all my service. I know Pendleton well as I had some buds there in the early 80's and 21 area and Trestles outside the gate, Las Pulgas/Basilone Roads are great places to surf. I dont suffer trolls or asshats who are too lazy to actually construct a coherent argument that isnt a bunch of teabag or neocon talking points or personal opinion. You know what an opinion is...
Good to see you on the case and researching whatever lunacy they spew. Like most rumor, some is actually based on fact. The true critical thinkers have skills that enable them to read, analyze, apply it and also understand how to synergize. It's how real thinking people communicate and cooperate and discuss things in here on the same basic wavelength (not always in agreement, mind you), which the assclowns, poseurs and teabag shitbirds cannot do; not part of their ken.
We speak in no shit terms, while they begin with 'oce upon a time...' It makes a difference. Sempir Fi.

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June 6, 2010 11:24 PM    in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe

Thanks for your responce here Marinus. My only experiences with the beaches at Pendleton was comming off of LVT-5's and 7's during amphib exercises. I hated those things. Joined 5th Marine Regt. Scout-Snipers so I could slooowly walk to where I needed to go. The creed that you espouse here--to read, analyze, apply it and also understand how to synergize--is one that I aspire to tho to often fall short of. Thanks for the reminder.

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June 6, 2010 11:37 PM    in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe

"The true critical thinkers have skills that enable them to read, analyze, apply it and also understand how to synergize." Fucking awesome quote man. I know acritical fail will probably troll this comment up, but that was probably the most powerful statement in this whole thread. I also loved the semper gumby reference, I haven't heard that in about seven years or so.

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June 9, 2010 10:43 AM    in reply to Hobbes83

"The true critical thinkers have skills that enable them to read, analyze, apply it and also understand how to synergize."

Agreed. True critical thinkers also deal in substance, question conventional wisdom and spin, and are willing to be persuaded by facts and reasonable argument that counter their initial positions.

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June 9, 2010 10:56 AM    in reply to acriticalthinker

I question conventional wisdom constantly but if conservative thought isn't conventional wisdom then I don't know what is. And by the way that quote comes from an earlier comment by Marinus. Why don't you you just direct your commentary to him if you dare. If you have troubled to take the time to read some of Hobbes's blogs here than you will realize that he is more than an intellectual match for you and in my humble opinion a suprior critical thinker as well.

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June 9, 2010 12:27 PM    in reply to larsvanness

I have had several opportunities to "dialogue" with Hobbes, but I have seen little substance or critical thinking in his comments (unless ad hominem attacks without substance count as critical thinking). You are entitled to your opinion.

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June 9, 2010 2:11 PM    in reply to acriticalthinker

And your entitled to look at yourself in the mirror and pretend to be anyone that you want. Hobbes's blog reveals more about critical thinking and an original mind than ANYTHING THAT YOU have posted here. As I posted eralier in respnse to you conservative thought is conventional wisdom by it's very definition.

"Conservatism (in other words conventional wisdom) is a political and social philosophy that says that traditional institutions work best and society should avoid radical change. Some conservatives seek to preserve things as they are, emphasizing stability and continuity, while others oppose modernism and seek a return to the way things were."

"Liberal philosophy symbolizes an extensive intellectual tradition that has examined and popularized some of the most important and controversial principles of the modern world. Its immense scholarly and academic output has been characterized as containing "richness and diversity," but that diversity often has meant that liberalism comes in different formulations and presents a challenge to anyone looking for a clear definition."


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June 9, 2010 4:52 PM    in reply to larsvanness

I will check out Hobbes' blog. I understand where you are coming from on your concept that conservatism = conventional wisdom. Would that it be accepted and practiced as such!

Do you deny that there is such a thing as liberal "conventional wisdom" (e.g. New York Times, Washington Post, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, TPM, Daily Kos, Huff Po, etc. etc. etc.)?

Do you ever question any of THAT? It sure does not appear that you do, or that you are open in the least to anything that disturbs liberal conventional "thinking". From what I see here, anything that questions liberal thinking is, and must be, dismissed out of hand, ridiculed, but rarely addressed or refuted with facts, substance, or support.

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June 6, 2010 11:57 PM    in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe

I just read Justice Sotomayors dissent from the link that you posted and I want to thank you for doing the leg work. I know how tedious it is to trudge through so many google hit's to find all the pieces of the legal puzzle when you don't have access to Westlaw and Lexus-Nexus like some of the asshats here do. But it makes the victory over them that much more sweeter. I certainly get Sotomayors point regarding the coercive power of the police and law enforcement and imposing institutional curbs on abuse. When it comes right down to it tho, I am somewhat conservative on judicial issues prefering a slow and steady evolution of thought in matters of jurisprudence but certainly supportive of nominating the best legal minds available for the highest court in the land regardless of political leanings. Again Marinus, Semper Fi! "All politics is local and so isn't the law".--larsvanness

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June 9, 2010 12:43 PM    in reply to Marinus van der Lubbe

You responded to lars:

"After reading Kennedy's opinion, Sotomayor's dissent, and the 6th Circuit take on it I have to agree with your take.

Why would this impugn Kagan? Why would it detract from her credentials? Why, if filing this amicus, would she be subject to scrutinization?"

No quarrel from me here---certainly Kagan's brief should not cause any liberals/progressives to scrutinize or question Kagan or detract from her progressive credentials. See my comment to lars at 12:19 today.

Sometimes you just have to be a gracious "winner" and accept my agreement (as hard as that may be to do) with your "no shit" view of Kagan.

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June 9, 2010 12:19 PM    in reply to larsvanness

"We have both come to the conclusion that Kaga as Solicitor General was just doing the job that she was hired to do when she filed her amicus curae brief before the SCOTUS even tho she was not compelled to do so."

Yes, I agree she was just doing her job as Solicitor General. I also recognize that she filed an amicus ("friend of the court") brief, which she was not required to file. I merely pointed out in my June 4 comment at 3:36 p.m. that since Kagan forcefully argued in favor of the position that was stated in the majority opinion (to which Sotomayor and the other 3 liberal justices DISSENTED), Kagan would have some "splaining" to do to libs (those few who even knew about her brief apart from the "nonsense" and "drivel" in my comment).

You went on: "Now you don't necessarily have to agree with us here but we think her position does'nt compromise her credentials as a lib/progressive or even as a moderate."

I completely agree. Other than briefs that she may have prepared and arguments she made as Solicitor General, Kagan has an impeccable record as a far leftist. As Solicitor General, Kagan was merely "doing her job". It is well known that briefs or memos prepared by attorneys do not necessarily represent their PERSONAL views, but are SUPPOSED to represent the interests of their CLIENTS (in this case, the people of the United States, as a whole, and not just the interests of criminals, who are already well represented by liberals, in general, and the 4 liberals on the SC, in particular).

As Solicitor General, Kagan was constained by the interests of the government and the people of the U.S., and by precedents, to argue (correctly) as she did in her amicus brief. However, once confirmed (which, barring unforeseen circumstances, I expect will occur), Kagan will feel free---as the other liberal justices feel free---to throw off those constraints and advocate, promote, and vote her personal and deeply held "progressive" views and policy preferences.

That is why, despite the possible brief consternation that Kagan's professional position as SG in the Berghuis case may cause some liberals, I said in my June 4 3:36 comment: "Of course, if confirmed, Kagan will no doubt join fellow Obama appointed (I meant to type "appointee"), Sotomayor, and the other two liberal justices in ideological and activist decisions that favor criminals against victims, as well as other parties and causes favored by liberals, in the face of the constitution, statutes, and precedents."

So, whether you agree with me or I agree with you, you are 100% correct when you said "I think her position does'nt compromise her credentials as a lib/progressive" (forget the "moderate" part of your comment----she is not likely to be a "moderate" who departs from Ginsberg, Breyer, and Sotomayor on a regular basis).

Libs can rest VERY easy, and you should be very happy. Kagan WILL be a "pedal to the metal" judicial activist who will advance the policy preferences of "progressives".

That is critical thinking that sees the world as it is, rather than wishful thinking, on my part. You are free to disagree about my conclusion about Kagan if you wish, though.\

Don't spend too much time in the sun while at the beach.

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June 9, 2010 2:21 PM    in reply to acriticalthinker

"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?"

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June 9, 2010 4:43 PM    in reply to larsvanness

"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves?"

You should be happy....no, overjoyed... at my opinion that Kagan will be a pedal to the metal liberal on the SC. For libs that should be a POSITIVE wave....especially coming from a conservative.

"Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here?"

I DO dig it. I attended my son's graduation from Marine boot camp in San Diego. I would love to have lived there...but before the libs turned it into Greece on a larger scale.

"Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?"

OK. Here is something that is EXTREMELY righteous and hopeful:
November 2, 2010.

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June 9, 2010 2:37 PM    in reply to acriticalthinker

Thank you for peering into your crystal ball. Regardless, I was not addressing you and certainly have no interest in whether you agree with me or don't as I need no validation from you regarding my ability to read a legal brief or interpret a courts decision.

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June 9, 2010 5:01 PM    in reply to larsvanness

Ditto on the lack of need for validation. I do take heart that I inspired you to spend time actually reading Kagan's brief and seeing that it did indeed support the conservative majority's opinion in Berghuis. Maybe, just maybe, at least one or two things in my comments are not just "partisan hack" "nonsense" that I make up out of whole cloth.

One of my goals here is to inspire at least one liberal to at least consider SOMETHING outside the liberal orbit of knowledge and unquestioned assumptions. Your reading Kagan's brief is a start.

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June 9, 2010 2:58 PM    in reply to larsvanness

Lars

Thank you for your reference to Kagan's amicus brief. Being a curious person, I found a PDF version of the actual brief on line at

http://www.abanet.org/publiced/preview/briefs/pdfs/09-10/08-1470_PetitionerAmCuUSA.pdf

For some here who prefer one or two sentence zingers and dismissive ad hominem name calling (e.g. "asshat", "assclown", "teabag shitbirds"), her 37 page brief is too long, has too many words, too many citations to facts and legal precedents---and otherwise offends their preconceived opinions about what a true progressive "should" think and argue about the rights of criminals. If she knew "asshat" was such a potent argument, she could have simply called the criminal's attorney an "asshat" and saved 36 pages of "nonsense" presented as facts and argument.

This comment is not directed to you, but to others who might, at this late date, stumble upon your comment and my reply.

If THEY have any real curiosity about Kagan and whether the conservative majority or Sotomayor and the liberal minority was correct in the Berghuis case, they might take a look at Kagan's brief.

For those who are not aware of how things work, the brief was probably written mainly by other lawyers in the SG's office, but Kagan was finally responsible for the brief, just as law clerks play a substantial part in writing the opinions of the SC justices. And although the brief no doubt does not represent her PERSONAL view of the law, as an attorney she is obliged not to make an argument that she believes is one that cannot be made in good faith.

In her brief, Kagan sounds a lot like she would be at home with the conservative majority, but don't worry...she was just "doing her job" as SG. Don't take her brief as a sign that she is a closet conservative or that she might turn out to be a Stevens or Souter for Obama. As a SC justice she will be free to follow her own progressive preferences. There will be as many surprises from Kagan as there have been and will be from Breyer, Ginsberg, and Sotomayor.

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June 9, 2010 3:08 PM    in reply to acriticalthinker

What's your point here? You have taken up a lot of space to say absolutely nothing that hasn't already been said and how do you know that she didn't author the bulk of her brief with her own hand? My step-father who had in fact argued cases before the SCOTUS authored with his own hand every brief, motion and appeal that bore his signature.

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June 9, 2010 5:08 PM    in reply to larsvanness

"how do you know that she didn't author the bulk of her brief with her own hand?"

I thought I was giving libs here an "out" by opining that perhaps a good part of the brief was written for Kagan. If Kagan researched and wrote it all, so much the better for my argument that Kagan---while "doing her job" as SG---agreed with the conservative majority and NOT Sotomayor. I do not know for a fact that Kagan did not write the whole brief all by herself, but I am willing to accept your hypothesis that she did.

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June 4, 2010 3:58 PM    in reply to acriticalthinker

Why don't you write this drivel on your blog in your profile instead of clogging up comment posts with your organized nonsense that you present as facts?

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June 4, 2010 4:04 PM    in reply to Hobbes83

Ad hominum invective accusing you of engaging in ad hominum invective in 5 . . . 4. . . . 3 . . .

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June 4, 2010 4:33 PM    in reply to The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve

Are you waiting for ad hominem invective from me? I leave that to Hobbes, Chameleon, and all the other tolerant, open minded, civil, welcoming of diverse opinions, and intellectually curious liberals here. That is THEIR specialty, and except for a few liberals, that is what I expect from most liberals---and they just INSIST on putting their intolerance and close mindedness on display for all to see. Ooops....is that "ad hominem invective" or an empirically verifiable fact?

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June 4, 2010 6:08 PM    in reply to acriticalthinker

Well, you're wrong on that account. I typically don't engage in ad hominems unless what has been said is so utterly stupid and vapid that I don't want to waste energy coming up with a logical response. I didn't use an ad hominem in the earlier post, because I didn't attack you, I attacked your argument and labeled it as drivel. And it still is.

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June 4, 2010 6:13 PM    in reply to The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve

You nailed it Steve, but I knew he was going to do that anyways. He has a very Rovian way of replying to other people, but he does it in a half-assed manner.

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June 4, 2010 4:19 PM    in reply to Hobbes83

As always-----please "expose" the "nonsense" presented as facts. It should be easy to do.

"Drivel" = facts and reasoned opinions supported by facts, experience, history, logic, and plain meaning of English language which liberals wish to ignore and/or dismiss without having to resort to facts and reasoned opinions which might qualify or refute "offending" facts and opinions which are in conflict with unquestioned liberal dogma.

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June 4, 2010 6:11 PM    in reply to acriticalthinker

Like I have said about your posts before, for you belief=facts. For me facts=objective observations and empirical evidence. The annoying thing about your facts is that you sit here, acting as if you are some conservative intellectual powerhouse when in reality you are nothing more then a partisan hack. That's an ad hominem for you by the way.

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June 4, 2010 10:14 PM    in reply to Hobbes83

Bingo!!!

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June 5, 2010 5:28 PM    in reply to Hobbes83

OK, I know that this will probably be a waste of my time and a fruitless attempt to actually engage in a constructive dialogue, but I will try to substantively respond to YOUR argument that my comments (including the one at 3:36 on June 4) were "organized nonsense that you present as facts".

Are the following "nonsense" or "facts":

1 Did Elena Kagan side with the majority in the recent Miranda waiver case, Berghuis v. Thompkins, or is that just "organized nonsense" that I, a "partisan hack", made up?

2. Was the murder suspect in Thompkins given his Miranda warnings but did not tell police that he wanted to end questioning or unamiguously invoke his right to remain silent, or is that just "organized nonsense" that I, a "partisan hack", made up?

3. Did the Police continue to ask Thompkins questions, did Thompkins answer some and remain silent for others, until he finally answered a question with an incriminating answer, or is that just "organized nonsense" that I, a "partisan hack", made up?

4. Did the Boston Globe report the following: "Supreme Court nominee Kagan had sided with the police in this case", or is that just "organized nonsense" that I, a "partisan hack", made up? (I will make it easy for you to verify whether I simply made up "nonsense" on my own or whether this was actually reported---here is the link http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2010/06

Another article to the same effect, and the rest of my quote is at

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100601/ap_on_go_su_co/us_supreme_court_miranda_rights )

5. Did Justice Sotomayor say in her dissent in Thompkins that "Today's decision turns Miranda upside down...Criminal suspects must now unambiguously invoke their right to remain silent—which, counterintuitively, requires them to speak", or is that just "organized nonsense" that I, a "partisan hack", made up?

6. Was Sotomayor logically and legally in error when she opined that suspects must "counterintuitively" speak in order to invoke their right to remain silent, and is it rather indisputable that a suspect can invoke his or her right to remain silent, by......remaining silent (who knew)?

7. Did Anthony Kennedy opine in his majority opinion that "If Thompkins wanted to remain silent, he could have said nothing in response to [the detective's] questions, or he could have unambiguously invoked his Miranda rights and ended the interrogation"?

8. As between Kennedy's statement and Sotomayor's statement, is it not true that Kennedy's statement, and not Sotomayor's, is logically,linguistically, and legally correct?

All of the above are, or should be to any intellectually honest person, undeniable facts, not "nonsense". Somehow, though, you dismiss it all as "organized nonsense". I expect no substantive answer or denial from you of the above facts well, it WOULD be in character for you to simply deny all of them out of hand, just as an insane person might simply deny that 2 + 2 = 4), since when broken down as I have done, any denial would only conclusively establish that you do not care at all about "objective observations and empirical evidence", except to simply ignore or dismiss them when they are inconvenient to your partisan position.

Your continuing back of the hand dismissals of my comments only makes all the more glaring either your inability or refusal to recognize and acknowledge even the most basic of indisputable facts as well as your total inability to muster even a weak substantive reply to such facts and take on, in a substantive way, my opinions----on which I concede reasonable people may differ on occasion. I see no evidence, so far, that you are either a reasonable or intellectually honest person.

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June 9, 2010 2:27 PM    in reply to Hobbes83

Still waiting for you to expose my "nonsense" presented as facts. Guess it will be a long wait. Lars is quite impressed with your intellectual abilities and critical thinking. Obviously, as a person who seems to be totally in tune with you, he is easily impressed. So far, I have not seen evidence of those things, but who knows....maybe someday I will get a substantive comment or reply that will force me to change my opinion. So far.....nothing of substance.

Don't bother to respond unless you have some facts and thinking to support your naked claim of "nonsense presented as facts."

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June 9, 2010 3:10 PM    in reply to acriticalthinker

YAWN

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June 9, 2010 3:17 PM    in reply to acriticalthinker

I've been doing it all along here!

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June 5, 2010 11:10 AM    in reply to acriticalthinker

Your post did not include any evidence or even suggested evidence to support your assertion that Kagen would always vote with Sotomayor. In fact, the only evidence you provide of Kagen's record points to precedent that suggests otherwise.

Why would anyone take that seriously?

By the way, Miranda isn't in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.

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June 5, 2010 5:45 PM    in reply to ohyeathatsright

"Your post did not include any evidence or even suggested evidence to support your assertion that Kagen would always vote with Sotomayor."

I did not say that Kagan would "always" vote with Sotomayor, but I will take a wager with you that Kagan will vote with the liberal bloc on a very consistent basis. As to the "evidence" to support my "way out" (my ironic characterization of myself) assertion, how about this from CBS as a start?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504564_162-20006769-504564.html

"In fact, the only evidence you provide of Kagen's record points to precedent that suggests otherwise."

OK, unlike Hobbes and others here, I will concede that the ONE instance I cited (her siding with the police in the Thompkins case) does suggest otherwise, but THAT was a position that ANY sane and honest lawyer would HAVE to take. (Sometimes even liberals cannot disregard the law and common sense, although there are four on the SC who seem to make a habit of doing so on a regular basis).

"Why would anyone take that seriously?"

Take WHAT seriously?

"By the way, Miranda isn't in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights."

Did I say that it was? Quite a few conservatives will agree with your point, though---just as the right to abortion is not in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights either.

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June 6, 2010 10:42 AM    in reply to acriticalthinker

THAT/WHAT = your argument.

I'm also glad you feel that Kagan is a sane and honest nominee. Perhaps you can now reasonably trust that she'd be straightforward and honest in her jurisprudence.

As for your evidence, that was all from her position as legal counsel for a Dem administration. What do you expect? Lawyers always side with their client. Tell me why this precludes her from serving in an alternative capacity as a Justice. Any why, for that matter, were we not privy to this level of documentation during the Alito or Roberts nominations?

Regarding your comment on the Constitution; it was you throwing about the hyperbole saying that "liberals disregard the Constitution". That was your closing argument to your Kagan post. I could only assume that you thought Miranda was a Constitutional right.

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June 6, 2010 1:35 PM    in reply to ohyeathatsright

Don't waste time trying to argue facts with that guy, he lives in a world where he is almost always correct and he projects a lot. I tried to do that a couple weeks ago and he just rights things off for the most part.

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June 6, 2010 2:09 PM    in reply to Hobbes83

No shit. Another asshat who just keeps shitting until it comes out of his mouth.

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June 9, 2010 1:19 PM    in reply to ohyeathatsright

"I'm also glad you feel that Kagan is a sane and honest nominee. Perhaps you can now reasonably trust that she'd be straightforward and honest in her jurisprudence."

Although I have no reason to believe that Kagan is not sane, I said that it was "her siding with the police in the Thompkins case" was a "position that ANY sane and honest lawyer would HAVE to take." My comment was not an assessment of her honesty as a general matter. I would HOPE that she would be straightforward and honest in her jurisprudence, but forgive me if I have some doubts about that.

"As for your evidence, that was all from her position as legal counsel for a Dem administration. What do you expect? Lawyers always side with their client. Tell me why this precludes her from serving in an alternative capacity as a Justice."

Yes, lawyers side with their clients, but justices are SUPPOSED to apply the law in a neutral fashion----not to advance an agenda. See my comment to lars at 12:19 today.

"Any why, for that matter, were we not privy to this level of documentation during the Alito or Roberts nominations?"

Where is the support for your contention that "we not privy to this level of documentation during the Alito or Roberts nominations"? As I said before, Alito and Roberts had huge paper trails as judges and other documents were provided as well. Kagan was never a judge, so all that is available are things that she has written as a student, policy maker, government employee, college administrator etc. What's the problem with reviewing any non-privileged documents that might shed some light on her personal and legal philosophy?

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June 9, 2010 3:09 PM    in reply to acriticalthinker

It cracks me up how the political persuasions of nominees are only "relevant" to the confirmation process when they are not "conservative". If you need evidence of that, you can always visit MediaMatters--it's in their own words...on video.

You might want to go on the road with the circus. You could be the soothsayer with the crystal ball and tarot cards, seems you know exactly how things will play out.

I should have heeded the warning not to argue with you based on factual evidence. I'll try a different tact, "Nuh-uh!"


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June 9, 2010 3:40 PM    in reply to ohyeathatsright

"You might want to go on the road with the circus. You could be the soothsayer with the crystal ball and tarot cards, seems you know exactly how things will play out."

It doesn't take a Kreskin to predict how Kagan will turn out as a SC justice appointed by a liberal President. Just a recognition of history and her credentials and Obama's credentials and record as far left liberals. When was the last time a liberal President appointed a justice who turned out to be a "moderate", let alone a "conservative"? Certainly not the most recent (and current) three.

Maybe you can go back to ancient history and find one. Besides the argument that Kagan made as SG in the Berghuis case, what evidence would you point to to suggest that Kagan will be anything other than a straight down the line liberal in the image of Breyer, Stevens, Ginsberg, and Sotomayor??? Look at Sotomayor's dissent vs. Kagan's brief as SG and tell me that Sotomayor (Obama's first appointment) is not a liberal activist.
Why should we expect Kagan not to be a liberal activist as well. Kagan and Obama go back a long way. He KNOWS what he want and what he will get with Kagan----and it is NOT a moderate or conservative justice or a justice who is committed foremost to upholding the constitution or statutes of the U.S.

I will be happy to be wrong in my soothsaying and crystal ball gazing, but the chances of that are very slim. But time will tell.

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June 9, 2010 3:49 PM    in reply to acriticalthinker

You keep throwing out these words about "upholding the Constitution" and it's quite apparent that to you this means, "be a conservative judicial activist."

If you want to rail on judicial activism that's one thing, but at least be fair with yourself.

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June 4, 2010 5:28 PM    in reply to acriticalthinker

acriticalt said "I expect that they will show a petal to the metal idealogical leftist, like the other liberal justices."

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but you blew it. It's "pedal to the metal." What a difference a letter makes, eh?

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June 5, 2010 5:31 PM    in reply to rabinius

Yes..."pedal", not "petal". Sorry, for the error.

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June 6, 2010 8:32 PM    in reply to acriticalthinker

I just read her brief and no where in it does Kagan make the statements regarding the "Supreme Court that the Constitution 'does not require that the police interpret ambiguous statements as invocations of Miranda rights.'"
If you have the citation referring to "the court papers" then why don't you just produce it? So I have come to the conclusion that YOU really DON'T know what your talking about and you really should follow Marinus's suggestion to STFU! What else can we expect from a "non personal injury attorney" trying to explain Constitutional law here.

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June 5, 2010 3:53 PM   

TPM, you do realize that this story is connected to a link about Afghanistan, Karzai and the Taliban, right?

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June 5, 2010 9:46 PM   

Roberts and Alito both - huge chunks of their Bush era documents were withheld to a point of making their most recent work history a black hole. Similarly when Bybee was nominated to the 10th Circuit court of appeals almsot none of his work at the OLC was released (including his involvement in the infamous torture memos).

There are narrow legal arguments supporting withholding such information on executive privilege grounds, but a) the Bush administration took a much broader view of the privilege and b) doing it in the context of vetting someone for lifetime appointments pretty much makes informed advice and consent impossible to provide. Especially after the Bybee memos became public, I think there will be tremendous pressure to produce administration work product in future confirmations where the appointee has served in the executive branch.

m65 kamagra

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June 6, 2010 9:27 AM    in reply to Tosh

We really, really need some active moderation in here. Why is Tosh still posting? Hasn't anyone at TPM discovered that he/she/it just cuts and pastes someone else's post, then adds a spam link? How long is this kind of thing going to be allowed?

Even the more obvious spam, like the fashion clothing crap, hangs around in here for days before someone finally hits the "delete" button.

Getting rid of this kind of garbage is very easy - for someone with admin privileges, it's a matter of a few minutes a day.

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June 6, 2010 2:03 PM    in reply to Early Out

I have seen that and also flagged it for abuse. Tosh repeated something verbatim that Chameleon had said to me when I first noticed it. No shit, especially trolls who have been punted but keep coming back under various names as well.

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