TPMDC

Kyl: Unemployment Benefits A 'Necessary Evil'


Sen. Jon Kyl (R-AZ)

Share

Twitter Fark Reddit Send to a Friend

Send to a friend!

To email:    Your Name:    Your email:

The second highest ranking Republican in the Senate doubled down on a controversial statement he made this weekend, arguing in greater detail that tax cuts for wealthy people should never be offset by tax increases in other areas -- but that unemployment benefits need to be fully paid for by either spending cuts or tax increases. In so doing, he claimed candidly that the very existence of unemployment insurance is a "necessary evil," while tax cuts ought not be paid for by increases in order to make it easier to shrink the size of government.

"My view, and I think most of the people in my party don't believe that you should ever have to offset a tax cut," Senate Minority Whip Jon Kyl told a handful of reporters outside the Senate chamber this afternoon. "That clearly reduced savings is a better way to offset increased spending than a tax increase is."

The rationale, Kyl said, goes back to the fundamental conservative goal of shrinking the size of government. If tax cuts are offset by tax increases in other areas, then it's hard to drown government in a bathtub.

"Who does the money belong to?" Kyl asked rhetorically. "The money belongs to the taxpayer, to the people. The money does not belong to the government, and yet that's what this kind of a rigid paygo rule would assume: that the money belongs to the government, and therefore if you're going to deny the government some of that revenue through a tax cut, you have to make the government whole, because the government can never lose any money. That would mean that you could never reduce the size of government. Each year, when it gets bigger, it stays at that level or it gets bigger yet, but you can never reduce it."

Kyl dismissed the view of the Congressional Budget Office, and a large swath of economists, that during a recession, extending unemployment is one of the ripest forms of stimulus.

"CBO's been wrong before," Kyl said. "It's not a stimulus for the economy, to try to help people through tough times. It's a necessary evil, in a sense. We'd like not to have to raise revenue in order to pay people for not working--or not to pay them for not working, but because they can't get work."

Kyl concluded:

To me you shouldn't look at it as an economic matter, it's a humanitarian matter. You got people who are out of work, who can't find work, you want to help 'em out. Families need help. That's why you provide it. You don't do it because it's going to stimulate the economy. You have to borrow the money in order to pay the folks. That borrowing has huge costs. They are adverse economics costs. So it's not a good thing for the economy. It's a bad thing for the economy but it's still the right thing to do for other reasons.

The stimulus argument for extending emergency unemployment benefits during a recession is simple: If unemployed people lose benefits, then they stop spending money, which shrinks the economy, and costs more jobs. Extending the benefits forestalls that. Kyl says that, while there is a political and humanitarian benefit to giving constituents unemployment benefits, the government deficits they engender do more harm to the economy than systemic unemployment could.

There's a political aspect to this as well. Democrats have sought to juxtapose the Republican view of tax cuts -- they should be free! -- with their view of unemployment benefits -- they must be paid for! -- to argue that Republicans will seek to return to Bush era economic policies if they retake Congress in November. You can expect this to fuel that argument.

This Sunday, Kyl took to the airwaves to defend not paying for tax cuts. "You do need to offset the cost of increased spending, and that's what Republicans object to. But you should never have to offset cost of a deliberate decision to reduce tax rates on Americans."

Comments (115) | Join the Conversation!

Recommend Recommend (0)

July 12, 2010 3:46 PM   

What a completely stupid line of logic by Kyl....but wait he's a Repuke!

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 7:14 PM    in reply to Progressive Party

Progressive,
Kyl's being 100% honest - for Republicans, tax cuts for the wealthy are more important than unemployment benefits. The great shame is that poor white Southerners, who will never be wealthy enough for Kyl's tax cuts and desperately need unemployment insurance, agree with him.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 8:28 PM    in reply to traitorjoe

You are so right, they watch Fox News and we know what that means.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 9:50 PM    in reply to traitorjoe

Where does Kyl say anything about tax cuts for the wealthy? The only people making that assertion are you and the diary's author.

Kyl's point is that policy makers ought to consider extensions to the unemployment insurance system based on "humanitarian" grounds and not the economics. People need help, we ought the help them. Period. While if you want to make the decision based on forecasts of velocity of money and stimulus effect, then you have to be prepared to conclude that maybe it isn't he best use of funds.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 10:56 PM    in reply to truth > spin

Ok, so why don't the GOP members vote to extend benefits for humanitarian reasons. As Kyl said, "You know, to help people", etc.??? Because they have made the decision to make the economy as bad as possible, to make uneducated people as confused as possible and in general to bring this country as low as possible.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 1:51 AM    in reply to LynnTTT

Really, you really think Senator Kyl wants the economy to get worse? You really think he wishes people ill?

Come on, man. I know you disagree with him and Republicans in general and you think all of your ideas are better. And I get that it might be slightly useful posturing to say such things in hopes that I travels through all these wonderful tubes to find someone who might not be 100% as certain of their positions as you (and I). But you can't honestly think he or any one of either party likes to see pain and suffering.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

Ivo

user-pic

July 13, 2010 2:39 AM    in reply to truth > spin

No of course he doesn't want the economy to get worse, how could anyone infer that? He's only willfully ignoring the CBO and most economists when he says that that unemployment benefits do not provide economic stimulus, which is a total load of mularkey. WTF does he think people do with unemployment benefits hoard them under their matresses?

Yes, it would appear that Kyl, by proxy of his uninformed viewpoints wants the economy to get worse. You can argue that he doesn't until you're blue in the face but his words and actions indicate otherwise.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 8:36 AM    in reply to truth > spin

In order to retake Congress, Republicans need the economy to be bad. Anything that makes the economy worse is part of their strategy. Any suffering by the non-rich is acceptable collateral damage.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 1:38 PM    in reply to farnsworth

That is an absurd assertion without any basis. Sounds just like those in the GOP who said the Democrats were hoping for more war dead in 2006 and 2008 so they could take control.

Philo T. would be appealed. He wants his good name back.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 2:31 PM    in reply to truth > spin

You are entitled to your opinion.

Why did Obama win in 2008? I won't say it was the main reason, but the state of the economy was a very large reason.

The current unemployment rate hovering just below 10% is a major threat to the Democrats this fall. The fact that the economy isn't strongly rebounding is a major threat to Democrats this fall.

Republican have demonstrated over the last thirty years that political expedience trumps the good of the country. Do you really think that now is when they are going to suddenly change?

I think my assertion is strongly grounded in facts and history. That you don't calls into question your observation skills.

And you are utterly wrong in your groundless assumption the Philo T. Farnsworth has any relation whatsoever to my comment handle. If I were using that as my sole estimation of your mental acuity, of your ability to separate truth from spin, I would consider every post you ever made a laughable stupidity on a par with sailorboy.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 4:57 PM    in reply to farnsworth

I have no quarrel with the first three paragraphs of your reply. I'd expand on the reasons why Omama won in 2008, but certainly the economy was a piece of it.

I'd say that both parties accept that they need to win elections so that they can govern according to their world view and/or more effectively oppose those with whom they disagree. I might nuance your comment to be less binary than political expedience trumping the good of the country, but I won't object to that assertion so long as we agree that neither party has a monopoly on that mindset.

Where I strongly disagree is that you provided any facts to support your assertion that the GOP would like to see the economy falter further or have people suffer more in order to gain electoral success. Do you think that if the elections were two years off that they'd roll on the UI extension? At this point, I don't.

And I couldn't give a rat's ass what you think about my mental acuity. My comment about Philo was more a joke than anything else.


Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 5:19 PM    in reply to truth > spin

The elections are always two years off. So considering what might happen in some fantasy land where elections weren't two years off is stupid and pointless.

And, yes, Democrats are pretty bad. In fact they are so bad, the only way to make them look good is to compare them to Republicans. But then they look like the Second Coming.

What have the Republicans done in the last three decades that hasn't made the economy worse?

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 6:24 PM    in reply to farnsworth

There are always another round of elections around the bend, that much is true. My point is that positions held today, within the framework of the current election cycle, are likely to be the same positions held at any other point, all else being equal. I think you've reasoning supports my position, we may only disagree on the motivation for holding a given position.

As for your final question, it's impossible to prove a negative. Or compare reality against a possible alternative that is unknowable.

But suffice it to say there are plenty of things about the GOP actions while they were in the majority that I disliked. And there is even more to the Bush Administration that I wish were not true.

But I don't give all the credit or all the blame to Washington for the state of the economy, and in general I hold the Congress in a higher view in terms of actual ability to make such differences.

Nevertheless, I would defend the idea that periods of GOP control of Congress have been more fiscally responsible than periods of Democrat control. So to the extent that fiscal stewardship matters to the wider economy, then I'd provide that in answer to your question.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 7:01 PM    in reply to truth > spin

Then defend it. Because I think it is nonsense.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 8:50 PM    in reply to farnsworth

I wrote what I believe to be a thoughtful reply, and I even linked to sources. But upon submitting I got this: "Your comment has been received and held for approval by the blog owner."

We'll see if it shows up...

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 9:06 PM    in reply to truth > spin

How convenient.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 9:09 PM    in reply to farnsworth

I think the issue may be that I included a bunch of links to other sites.

let's see if this works: visit http://www.thefoldblog.com/2010/04/big-spenders-vs-even-bigger-spenders.html

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 9:14 PM    in reply to truth > spin

Hm, odd it took it that time. In the first post, I asked you to decide a bunch of things, such as whether we should use CBO or OMB's number, how far back we should go, how to account for split control years and also divided Congresses, etc.

I wanted you to answer those so that we had an agreed upon framework.

I then laid out what I thought was fair and reasonable (along with why) and then I pointed you to the site I just linked above where I wrote a post on the very topic.

I put all the source links in the post that is being held by TPM, so maybe there were just too many links. In any case, please visit the Fold Blog post I wrote because all the data is there, along with my analysis and the supporting work to back up my assertion.

If you want to use another time period or data set, just say so. I'll crunch those numbers too and show my work.

But I do expect at the end for you to either agree with my contention or to give me an equally supported workup of why / where mine failed.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

mJJ

user-pic

July 12, 2010 11:16 PM    in reply to truth > spin

You can try to nice up Kyl's disgusting statement but alas, he said what he said. Actually I am a life long moderate Republican and I have never heard a stupider comment than this one out of Kyl's mouth. He is my Senator although I did not vote for him. But next time, if he runs again, I shall actively work for his defeat. A stupider, more callous person seldom walks on this earth. The guy is clueless about common folks suffering and he needs to be taken out the next election go-round. God has a rule about folks with no compassion for the poor and needy and Kyl has stepped over that line to his own detriment. He worked very hard to put forth the idea that assistance to unemployed as opposed to tax cuts for the wealthy seemed egregious to him. The guy lacks simple compassion and the ability to find sensible solutions to people's problem. No Christian empathy in this guy's statement whatsoever! Thumbs down on Senator Kyl!!!!!!

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 2:05 AM    in reply to mJJ

He worked very hard to put forth the idea that assistance to unemployed as opposed to tax cuts for the wealthy seemed egregious to him.

Seriously, where do you and the many other posters with this viewpoint see Kyl saying anything about preferring tax cuts for the wealthy? It seems to me that you've been so manipulated by the left to link the two that you fill in the blank whenever you see the phrase tax cut.

And, where does he say unemployment insurance spending is egregious? In fact, he says it ought to be done for humanitarian reasons, that when people need help it should be given and that it is the right thing to do. All of those quotes are direct from him in the above story. The line of reasoning you are imparting to him is asserted by the author without basis or filled in by the demons in your own mind.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 2:37 PM    in reply to truth > spin

Oh, I see. You are a stupid liar Republican shill. I should have know by your self-aggrandizing handle.

Shut up, stupid liar.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 4:41 PM    in reply to farnsworth

Man, you really told me. I guess I'll take my comments and go home. LOL

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 7:08 PM    in reply to truth > spin

By the way, that's exactly how they voted. No on money for the unemployed, yes on money for the already wealthy. So your objection to the remark is a wrong as the rest of your stupid lying.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 8:06 PM    in reply to farnsworth

Whatever man. If you can't have a rational, civil discussion, why even bother posting here? Just go shout your crazy on the corner.

I understand you may disagree with their priorities and logic, but that doesn't mean you get to make things up.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 8:53 PM    in reply to truth > spin

I am not the one making things up. You have to look in the mirror for that.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 8:55 PM    in reply to truth > spin

Also, the vote totally proved you wrong, but you avoided discussing that particular fact. Typical tactic for the stupid liar.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 2:20 AM    in reply to truth > spin

"velocity of money" -

Can you really think of anyone who will spend money quicker than a family living on an unemployment check that's a fraction of what Dad was making before he lost his job?

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

AJM

user-pic

July 12, 2010 10:19 PM    in reply to traitorjoe

Unemployment benefit being merely a refund of taxes already paid are logically the same thing as a tax cut.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

mJJ

user-pic

July 12, 2010 11:08 PM    in reply to Progressive Party

Actually I am a life long moderate Republican and I have never heard a stupider comment than this one out of Kyl's mouth. He is my Senator although I did not vote for him. But next time, if he runs again, I shall actively work for his defeat. A stupider, more callous person seldom walks on this earth. The guy is clueless about common folks suffering and he needs to be taken out the nest election go-round. God has a rule about folks with no compassion for the poor and needy and Kyl has stepped over that line to his own detriment. The guy lacks simple compassion and the ability to find sensible solutions to people's problem. No Christian empathy in this guy's statement whatsoever! Thumbs down on Senator Kyl!!!!!!

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 7:50 AM    in reply to mJJ

Wow a moderate republican. I didn't know there were any of you left at least not one willing to speak out. When are you all going to take your party back so we can start governing this country. And why aren't moderate republicans speaking out.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 3:52 PM    in reply to mJJ

I can respect a moderate republican for two reasons:
1. I have discovered that in the past moderate republicans have respected my point of view and cosequently...
2. I have respected theirs which leads to...
3. an intelligent and well thought out discussion often leading to a compromise with which to begin to resolve some sticky issues. When the opposition is extreme than I too will fall back on my radical partisn beliefs as well and no dialogue is possible and I am just as satified with that out come. So MJJ in support of chameleon's query the ball is in your court so to speak.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 3:49 PM   

so the bush tax cuts are gonna expire....to kyl i say "tough sh*t ! the bush 2001 and 2003 tax cuts harmed the economy and how many jobs did it create ? (remember those tax cuts are still in effect and have been in effect since 2001)

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 5:19 PM    in reply to jlover

Precisely.

If tax cuts create jobs, then how come the Bush tax cuts didn't even create enough jobs to keep up with population growth, let alone replace all the jobs lost in the 2002-2003 recession?

This is a point that needs to be hammered home against the GOP incessantly between now and November 2012. Tax cuts DO NOT create jobs -- if they did, then unemployment wouldn't have increased under President Bush.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 5:52 PM    in reply to Signalman

Not on ly do tax cuts not create jobs - they create unemployment - or in economic speak they have negative job creation.

The data are clear - DUHbya's tax cuts are largely responsible for the millions of jobs lost since 2000.

The US us increasingly a country of have nots supporting a small group of obscenely rich haves and a huge group of have wannabes (who will borrow up to their eyebrows to live the lifestyle they think they are entitled to). For a so-called political party that claims the mantle of God and country, the Republican'ts more resemble the Philistines than the Christians they so aspire to be. What would Jesus do? He'd feed the hungry shelter the homeless, embrace the downtrodden....you get the picture - he'd be FOR everything the Republican'ts are against.

Re: Homeless in America - thank you Ronald Reagan for turning the media and public against the poor and for throwing people who should be institutionalized onto the street. Haiti may have 1.5 million homeless - but they had a natural disaster. The US has ADDED 1.5 million to the ranks of the homeless and all we have to blame is the Republican'ts
PBS has facts and figures: http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/526/homeless-facts.html

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 12:49 AM    in reply to Signalman

Tax cuts may allow the rich to put on a full time pool boy, that's a job right? Sen. Kyl you are sub-human.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 3:59 PM   

During recession unemployment benefits have one of the highest multipliers, meaning that you get the most stimulus for the least increase in long run debt. Google "menzie chinn pocketful multipliers" for some estimates generated by Economy.com, a branch of Moody's.

Extending unemployment insurance has over five times the stimulus per dollar as making the Bush tax cuts permanent.

Not also that the scale of expenditure is completely different. Extending unemployment insurance benefits costs $18-30??? billion. Extending Bush tax cuts costs $678 over 10 years - that's a factor of over 20x.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 4:27 PM    in reply to Measure for Measure

you're talking economics. you are a crazy person! kyl don't give a sh*t about economics. he knows what he believes and he's sticking to it.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 5:26 PM    in reply to Measure for Measure

Correct, but you're forgetting the first tenet of Republican economics - the multiplier only counts if it goes into the pockets of people who vote Republican, and preferably rich ones at that. Giving money to poor people doesn't count - that's socialism! ;)

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

Joe

Facebook

July 12, 2010 5:38 PM    in reply to Measure for Measure

'Extending Bush tax cuts costs $678 over 10 years - that's a factor of over 20x.'
It doesn't 'Cost', it 'Fails to raise' $678B. It's not there unless you tax it.
But I'm with you on the efficiency argument. And I'm with the next guy on the irrelevance of economics to the RNC. Don't bother them with the facts, they'll make up their own facts and extrapolate their own 'laws', which they'll also give not a shit about.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 12:03 AM    in reply to Measure for Measure

"Extending unemployment insurance benefits costs $18-30??? billion. Extending Bush tax cuts costs $678 over 10 years - that's a factor of over 20x."

I agree with you in general, but can you please elaborate on this statement? It seems like you're comparing a yearly cost to a 10-year total. Is the 18-30 billion for the extension a 10-year total? Because if not, you'd have to divide the 678 billion [I assume] over 10 years, giving you 67 billion as the number you should be comparing. Still a big difference, and it proves your point, but it's not a factor of 20x...

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

mcc

user-pic

July 12, 2010 4:00 PM   

Kyl is saying what he truly believes out loud. Generally not a good idea for Republicans.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 8:27 PM    in reply to mcc

Exactly. And these guys hope to take BOTH houses of Congress this November? Not gonna happen!

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 11:54 PM    in reply to CityGuy

They plan on taking the American people - to the cleaners.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 4:02 PM   

Kyl is quite the contortionist - he twisted himself into a pretzel.

Of course I still believe Obama will keep the Bush tax cuts.

For every dollar doled out in UE, $1.61 comes back. I think that's what Reid tried to explain in that vid a couple diaries down.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

pd

user-pic

July 12, 2010 4:02 PM   

He is either a liar or an idiot or both. Calling a tax reduction without offsetting spending cuts a "savings" is horseshit. It is borrowing that will most likely be paid back with highly diluted money, which is legalized stealing. He and his partners have been using this bs argument for so long they probably believe it by now.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 4:51 PM    in reply to pd

Stealing is the word. The gap between the top 1% of income compared to the rest of us shows exactly what they did - they stole our money (jobs, future income, value of property) and gave it to themselves.

I want my money back.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

Tim

user-pic

July 13, 2010 4:45 AM    in reply to Powkat

It's also worth point out what Gandhi said:

Poverty is a form of violence. Perhaps the worst kind of violence.

I think this notion really puts Kyle's words into perspective.

....and it also puts in perpsective why the use of guillotines against the likes of him during the French revolution was nothing more than making evening the score. After all this time, you think guys like his ilk would no better. But then they wouldn't be guys like his ilk. They must be foolishly optimistic that mobs wielding pitch forks and 'second , in this economy. Man that's either very foolish or very brave.


Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 4:05 PM   

Well, that's odd. On my last check stub it shows that I paid into unemployment. Doesn't that mean if I have to draw unemployment, I'm just getting my money back? How is that any different?

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

aq

user-pic

July 12, 2010 4:38 PM    in reply to gayinmt

they've never been unemployed. They have no idea.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 9:44 PM    in reply to gayinmt

I've never seen a paycheck itemize the payment made to a state's UI fund. Are you sure about that? I suppose it is possible, I've just never seen or heard that before.

In any case, it isn't 'your' money any more than if your employer had decided to break down and allocate what it cost them to buy your desk, computer, work tools, etc. Do all those costs of doing business mean they can't (or won't) pay you more? Sure. Does that mean the desk or computer is yours? No.

Normally, unemployment is a self-funding insurance system that makes payouts funded by the premiums charged to employers. Only when unemployment goes up high enough to swamp the premium pool and when policy makers want to extend payout periods is public funding used.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 10:30 PM    in reply to truth > spin

The original poster (gayinmt) was making an obliquely snarky reference to this story a few weeks back, where the GOP whiner insisted that taking a cool million in farm subsidies wasn't being a "parasite" (as his sign called Democrats) since it was "his tax money coming back".

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 4:11 PM   

Kyl was thumping for prohibition of Internet gambling. His priorities are backward and his intentions, corrupt.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 4:16 PM   

It's 1980, and I am reading the right side article in the Wall Street Journal about some union president trying to figure out why some union members were going to vote for Reagan. It went something like this: I ask them 'How is Reagan going to lower taxes, increase defense spending and balance the budget?' but they don't have an answer. It's impossible. It just doesn't make any sense.

And indeed it was. Taxes went down and the deficit exploded. But thus was launched the Great Reagan Tooth Fairy myth (magical thinking, something for nothing) and like that union guy, I have been waiting EVERY DAMN ELECTION CYCLE (and that's some 30 years youngins) for some god damn fu@king Repukelican to answer that question. And damn it, I am still waiting.

Credit to Rep. Paul Ryan's (R-WI) Road Map. A total joke- no deficit reduction for 50 years. Bla bla bla the Great Reagan Tooth Fairy myth is just a myth.

But now, thank you Sen Kyl for puncturing the myth. Finally! Finally some real Repuklican Truth.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 4:25 PM   

Every republican is talking about more tax cuts... our taxes are the lowest in some 50 years.... when will they ever admit that it doesn't work like they say.

Right now they talk about how there's a huge group of people who don't pay any income taxes.... yet they want to lower it even more... so basically they are acknowledging that they want to reduce taxes on the upper income earners

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 6:03 PM    in reply to Blueline99

It's worse than that...they actually want to tax the poor:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83696,00.html

I see their point....after all, the poor are more likely to vote progressive while the rich vote conservative. Similarly, wrecking government will keep it from helping the poor at the expense of the rich. Perfectly logical.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

LFC

user-pic

July 12, 2010 4:25 PM   

It classic right-winger nonsense. The things they want to increase the deficit with (more tax cuts, more defense spending, etc.) don't have to be paid for. The things the Dems want (health insurance for all, extended unemployment benefits during a time of fiscal crisis unprecedented in modern times) must be paid for.

Ain't that f***in' convenient. Being Republican means never having to say you'll pay for your policies.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 4:32 PM    in reply to LFC

they want to drive a BMW - they usually pay for it
they want to live in a nice house - they pay for it - oops. forgot, now days the rich walk away.
they want to live in the best country in the world - it's supposed to be free.
F thsm

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

LFC

user-pic

July 12, 2010 4:54 PM   

"The money belongs to the taxpayer, to the people. The money does not belong to the government, and yet that's what this kind of a rigid paygo rule would assume: that the money belongs to the government, and therefore if you're going to deny the government some of that revenue through a tax cut, you have to make the government whole, because the government can never lose any money. That would mean that you could never reduce the size of government. Each year, when it gets bigger, it stays at that level or it gets bigger yet, but you can never reduce it." (bold mine)

Dear Sen. Kyl: Uh, I guess you aren't bright enough to grasp what a spending cut is. You don't seem to have the ability to grasp that paygo means increased taxes and/or decreased spending.

Why can't you grasp spending cuts? Because you're a Republican, and Republicans simply refuse to support meaningful spending cuts or tax increases, guaranteeing no meaningful deficit reduction ... ever. That pretty much means that you pray to Our Lady of Perpetual Deficits.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 6:47 PM    in reply to LFC

Also, why is it that everything but government should grow? They keep wanting to reduce the size of government. As long as the population and business are growing, why wouldn't the government? Business can grow so fast and big it resembles the growth of a cancer. That's ok with the GOP. Expand government to restrict businesses from destructive growth? NOOOO WAAAAY

Look at Congress. The number of constituents the individual members serve can vary by large numbers. Compared to the number reps had in the 60's, all are much larger. The only way they can do it is to have large, paid staffs to do most of the work. But trying to add more congress critters is not workable at this point.

It's going to be an election of trying to talk over the media and the Citizens United ads in order to reach and inform voters.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 5:15 PM   

The Republicans throw another nice slow one over the plate, and Democrats don't even swing at it.

How about when Republicans talk about "shrinking the size of government thru a tax cut", Democrats ask them to enumerate the governmental programs and functions they will eliminate to pay for the tax cut?

Tax cuts and spending without specific, immediate spending cuts is how the deficit exploded.

I don't want the tax cut for the rich extended, I want a war tax that pays for the two wars Republicans started and the so-called "war on terror". It should be on Incomes above the Social Security limit, capital gains, hedge funds and the like, and be slated to end when the wars ALL end.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 5:30 PM   

The rich deserve to pay more tax because:

1) They wouldn't be rich unless their employees can drive on the taxpayer-financed roads to get to work. Or their customers.

2) They wouldn't have many skilled employees if they couldn't go to publicly funded schools to learn the skills.

3) They wouldn't be rich if they couldn't take-off and land at publicly funded airports to buy & sell companies.

4) Their rich spouses and heirs would not be as safe without publicly funded fire & police protection. Neither would their workers...or their customers.

5) They wouldn't have as powerful computers without a publicly funded space program.

...and on and on. Our society's total structure enables the rich to get rich and they need to pull their collective weight.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 10:40 PM    in reply to Dennis

Great post.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

Tim

user-pic

July 13, 2010 4:58 AM    in reply to Dennis

Perhaps a shorter version:

They draw more benefits, so they should pay higher fees.

Like a toll road: the more miles you go (the more you benefit from the toll road) the more toll you pay.

Same thing with civilization: the more you benefit from it, the more you should pay.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 5:41 PM   

This may be off topic.

On MSM today, there's a lot of talk that 1.5 million people are homeless in Haiti. Has anyone seen any statistics on how many Americans are now homeless? There has been no media attention to this at all. Foreclosures are reported but nothing about tent cities, homeless shelters or the street. Why?

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 6:40 PM    in reply to Andreams

I volunteer at a local food bank. The social services is over stretched in the county I live in Florida. Our estimate that about 20% of the residents are doubled up with 2 families to a home. Friends and relatives doing what they can to keep families together. 10% of the housing stock is empty because of foreclosures. I can't say how many are homeless but I do know that you can only stay in the shelters a couple of days. It used to be just men that were drifters now it is families. The drifters get turned away in favor of the kids. It is more than what local charities can handle.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 6:07 PM   

Keep yappin' fool. The sheeple are slowly waking up and between you and Der Bummer they are really getting that history education they missed in school...public or home...

Onward to a National General Strike!

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 6:12 PM   

Kyl says that, while there is a political and humanitarian benefit to giving constituents unemployment benefits, the government deficits they engender do more harm to the economy than systemic unemployment could.

Thanks to the GOP, there could be lot's of unemployed people exercising their 2nd Amendment rights. Now where could that lead?

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 6:54 PM   

Gees....what a total and complete utterly soulless and idiotic ass hole. Which of course says volumes about his constituency as well.

C

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

cgd

user-pic

July 12, 2010 7:01 PM   

Obviously what they really want is ever decreasing taxes for the rich.

However, some of them make the argument that taxes like the estate tax are unfair (double taxation) and taxes on cap gains and dividends should be low to encourage investment. (Plus, many retired middle income folks depend on dividends & cap gains for part of their income.)

Fine. Offset the lower rates on taxes mentioned above by higher marginal income tax at the high end. It's now much lower than it was before Reagan.

Better yet, slash military spending at the same time.

We're going to have to fight very hard against the deficit alarmists - and these counter-proposals are the way to do it.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 7:02 PM   

Kyl is a necessary evil as the word necessary is used in relation to the needs of human waste disposal.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 7:15 PM   

Pfff, Republicans .... what else is new?

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 7:30 PM   

Wanna watch Kyl's head explode? Tell him we should consider a return to the 90% tax rate for the wealthy.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 7:36 PM   

What a thundering asshole.

He is either grotesquely ignorant or obscenely disingenuous.

Oh, wait!

He's a Reprobate, he's both!

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 7:51 PM   


My understanding is that if Congress does nothing, all the Bush taxes cuts run out and everyone gets an increase, including a jump from 10% to 15% for the lowest earners. If Congress acts upon Obama's plan (is there a bill, where is it-I'm confused!!),and passed it, taxes would only be increased for the higher brackets. I believe the 28% bracket would encompass a wider range, but taxes would go up only for Married Filing Jointly incomes over $ 232,950 and Head of Household $189,000.
And then would just go up 3.9% on salaries over $ 250,000 (or $ 189,000?) and only on the income over that base. So an additional $390 for every $10,000 in income? So much for my friend's statement (Tea Partier) that "it just won't pay anyone to work." I have a friend turning 71. He said he made his money (and there was alot of it) in the 1970's; he looked at old tax returns and he was paying almost 70% in taxes!!

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 7:51 PM   

The Reprobates keep giving anyone with the slightest cranial activity reasons not to vote for them in November 2010.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 8:17 PM    in reply to FreemanW

The problem is that none of our voters are going to show up because Obama and the Democrats don't care about doing anything other than shitting on their own base. They won't end the fucking wars, they won't pass anything in Congress without 60 votes, they're just useless poseurs.

Only Teabagger assholes are going to show up. Then the Dems will once again be able to throw their hands up in the air uselessly and ask us for money to put their useless asses back in there. (I'm pretty pissed about how Dems haven't done shit on the unemployed.)

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 9:08 PM    in reply to Morbo

This socialist is going to show up and vote for every Democrat on the ballot. Because I understand how the government works, and because despite all the ways that the Democrats suck, the Republicans are actively trying to destroy everything that is beautiful in this world, and if some bunch of half-assed narcissistic lifestyle morons can't even get off their ass and vote against the Republicans then they can go to hell and stay there with the fucking teabaggers.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 1:28 AM    in reply to Skybolt

Amen.

I'll never understand the prima donna attitude of some liberals who think that if Democrats in general--or Obama, Reid, and Pelosi in particular--don't labor without rest to turn America into a progressive paradise, then they don't deserve to be elected, or re-elected, and that they have betrayed their political base.

The truth is that, like the teabaggers, the prima donnas thrive on the perception of being betrayed. They love nothing more than playing the victim because it absolves them of learning to accept the world for the imperfect place that it is, rather than a place that is perfect ... but by their narrow definition. And, like teabaggers, they represent a minority of the electorate that nevertheless believes it should be catered to by everyone else.

To me there is little political difference in the effects that these prima donnas and the teabaggers have on the world. If they cannot see a substantive and positive difference between Bush and Obama, or the Congress in 2005 that was smitten with Terri Schiavo and snowflake babies, and the Congress of today that is tackling some nutbusting problems, they are simply too far gone to worry about.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 9:43 AM    in reply to castanea

+5

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 11:00 AM    in reply to castanea

Give it up! At least the 'pubs are honest, repulsive to be sure in so many ways, but the Dems simply lie and play the victim. Both parties are owned by Big Business. One party talks the humanitarian "were for the middle class" bullshit but delivers the same crumbs to the masses as the Republicans.
Making Bush/Obama comparisons is the classic straw dog argument. It makes you feel good being on the 'right' side of the struggle, but both parties, by their deeds, deliver marginalized legislation that keeps us all always hoping for the quality of life we deserve. The 'pubs would rather keep the masses destitute while the Dems will simply keep us poor. Their masters come first.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 2:04 PM    in reply to Clarance Vine

Like I said, prima donnas are too far gone to worry about.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 3:39 PM    in reply to castanea

Just keep worshiping at the feet of God Obama.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 4:31 PM    in reply to castanea

Amen Amen Amen!!

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 9:32 PM    in reply to Morbo

Don't vote, that'll show 'em!

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 10:10 PM    in reply to Dorn76

i'll vote for the Dem's but Obama is a fucking clown. i gave him money and time in 2008 for NOTHING. He has ZERO political courage. He should be hammering these Republican asswipes (latest example above) but instead can't even get 60 votes on fin'l reform ... which is a ridiculously bad bill btw. I'll bet these Dem fucktards even renew the Bush tax cuts in some form ... it would not surprise me in the least.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 3:07 AM    in reply to martis

Remember, NOTHING to you may still be SOMETHING to others. Like those that would be living in the street and eating out of a dumpster if you hadn't helped get Obama elected.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 8:22 AM    in reply to martis

Obama does not have the power to command obedience from the Senate. If you want to blame somebody, blame the people who voted for Republican senators. We are not going to get a better government until we get better voters.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

Kim

Facebook

July 12, 2010 8:34 PM   

He's a meanie.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 8:43 PM   

Massive tax cuts for the ultra-wealthy and huge bailouts to investment banks so that top and middle-level executives can be given 5 and 6-figure bonuses? Good ol' free market capitalism -- the life blood of patriotic Americana.

Modest financial support for the unemployed, the homeless, the uninsured? Pure unadulterated socialism -- the greatest threat to all that is good and pure about America.

Excerpts from the 21st Century Conservative Values Handbook, edited by Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, Joh Kyl, and Michelle Bachmann

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 1:08 AM    in reply to labman57


5 and 6 figure bonuses? You haven't been paying attention.

Those bonuses are 7 and 8 figures

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 8:50 PM   

John Kyl:
Second-highest ranking Republican. Number one pompous ass.
Since everything that Democrats want must be paid for, while everything Republicans want doesn't have to be paid for, how can we offset his salary?

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 9:30 PM   

Yeah putting money in the hands of people who lost their jobs, to pay rent, buy food, to live, yeah, that does nothing for the economy. But if all those people would just hit the streets with a "will work for food" sign, now THATs the way to create jobs!

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 9:36 PM   

C Street and it's 'the poor are hated by Jesus' religion has so warped these guys...

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 9:46 PM   

Please, please, please: Some liberal progressive group PLEASE run an ad that reads "Jon Kyl: 'Unemployment benefits = EVIL'."

Shorter conservatism: If you need help, you don't deserve it. Therefore, government should help those who are doing A-OK on their own.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 10:00 PM   

Aristotle and his posse figured it out a long time ago. The answer to 'Who should pay taxes? is:

'Those who can afford to.' And yes Virginia during the periods of greatest growth in the economy the top marginal tax rates where in the 80 to 90% range. See, when they get that high rich folks take their money and...

...put it to work.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 10:01 PM   

What did you expect. Kyl has been spoon-fed his whole life.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 10:21 PM   

I am through with the kabuki dance of calling them "Republicans" or "Conservatives" or "Tea Partiers".... from now on, they are nothing but Anti-Humanity Assholes. Period. That's all they fricking are.

Perhaps a shorter name for them could be the AHAs. I don't know. But for now, Assholes sounds right to me.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 11:05 PM   

This business from Kyl is typical Republican garbage when they are out of power. Put them back in power, and instead of "smaller government, and shrink the deficit", we'll get "deficits don't matter", and unbridled spending on wars and tax cuts for the wealthy. The real issue is they don't like what Democrats want to spend money on, and they especially don't like not having the final word on the budget, everything else is spin.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 12, 2010 11:08 PM   

wow i cant untangle the confused circular logic that sen. kyle is trying to use to justify his economic ideology. During WWII our economy recovered because we had gov spending like crazy building all types of supplies and selling gov bonds. Along with the new deal that told american workers you have rights and are going to get a fair deal from you government and you company. This supply side economics are just a remake of the Hover era ideology it has failed over and over again the only reason we survived this one is because the Roosevelt new deal polices where still there. i dont know what year these people think it is but we can just look it up on line to see what history tells us about this i guess this is why they are trying to re write history

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 12:20 AM   

Apparently, Sen. Kyl thinks the public is gullible enough to take republicans seriously on fiscal policy. As one indicator, consider the ratio of national debt to GDP in the presidential administrations for the past 30 years.

Reagan-Bush (1980-1992):
Beginning debt/GDP 32.5%
Ending debt/GDP 66.1%

Clinton (1992-2000):
Beginning debt/GDP 66.1%
Ending debt/GDP 56.4%

Bush (2000-2008)
Beginning debt/GDP 56.4%
Ending debt/GDP 83.4%

Kyl's incoherent logic says that tax cuts need not be offset by tax increases, but that spending increases must be offset by other spending reductions in order for the government to to shrink. Could he please flesh that out with some examples of where republicans have actually, in fact, behaved accordingly? Obama inherited an 83% debt/GDP ratio, of which the 3 main contributors were (1) tax cuts with no offsetting spending reductions, and (2)massive unfunded increases in real federal spending, primarily with Medicare Part D and the Iraq war.

We're expected to take republicans seriously on fiscal policy??


Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 7:39 AM   

Kyl needs to be taken out permanently. When are some desperate persons going to start taking these bastards like Kyl out?
Only 1 pipebomb in Houston so far. I really hope there will be more coming.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 7:52 AM   

I think Kyl's position is more succinctly presented here:
http://thinkprogress.org/2010/07/11/kyl-tax-cuts/

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 7:52 AM   

"Who does the money belong to?" Kyl asked rhetorically. "The money belongs to the taxpayer, to the people."

It's about time rational people started to push this notion back into the hole. This is the language they used to get Bush's tax cuts passed, and they continue with it to get their way.

It seems to me that these guys do not like the Constitution for some reason. This money is collected according to provisions in the Constitution for the purpose of running the government. As it says in the Constitution, this government IS the people, and the money belong to ALL the people who constitute this nation. It DOES NOT belong to the tax payer. If the particular tax payers do not like this, then they can endeavor to change it or move out to a place they like better. But DO NOT go on about how it is YOUR money. It IS the government's money that the PEOPLE have collected in order for it to function the way the people see fit.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 8:25 AM   

Spending never decreases. No matter who is in change.

Kyl's logic has so many holes you could drive several semi trucks through them.

Its not a matter of tax policy or entitlements. Its a matter of curruption.

Until we get the corruption under control, then we will always have fiscal and monetary policies that make zero sense.

We have never had a post-wwII government that has been serious about reducing deficits. Because its unpopular. No matter what anyone says.

I can see it now. All the powers that be in Congress (both Repbulican and Democrat) + President Obama, standing in front of the American People and saying:

"We will cut Social Security by 1/3, Medicare and Medicaid by 1/3, and Defense spending by 1/3. And increase taxes by 1/3. Starting now. We should be debt free in 5 years."

BOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 8:41 AM   

Republicans at least since Reagan and as early as the gilded age period in American history have the argument wrong. It is not a matter of "big" government vs. "little" government. It is a matter of "effective" government vs. "ineffective" government. The Republicans worship at the altar of tax cuts and "no new taxes" and look what it has created from 2001 thru 2009. Republicans lack a grasp of the comprehending "governance" becasue they hate government of "we the people".

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 1:11 PM    in reply to BrightLightsBigCity

I totally agree the issue ought to be effective vs. ineffective government. Both sides are guilty of the same narrow thinking.

Sure I want government to be as small as practical, but I surely want whatever government we do have to be effective, lead to positive outcomes and certainly be efficient. I'd much rather spend $1 billion and get a good result than spend $750 million and get crap.

So, how do we get people, including politicians and activists to focus on outcomes? That's the hard part.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 8:52 AM   

Kyl was crafty in responding to Chris Wallace. He talked about increased spending increasing the deficit as a bad thing, and then said it was ludicrous to balance tax cuts (his proposal) with other tax increases. This is, in fact, true, but the fact is, the way to neutralize tax cuts is to cut spending, not to increase other taxes. He ought to propose a decrease in subsidies to wealthy farmers and defense and energy companies as a way to balance his tax cuts.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 12:09 PM   

Translaation: "I'm a Republican, and I revel and glory in ignorance, revile and resent anyone highly educated, and find inconvenient facts to be messy...and therefore, I shall pander to my minions by telling them that there's an easy, simple, "common sense" solution to incredibly complex and imbedded societal problems that actually would require sacrifice and altruism to solve effectively. Broken economy? No problem! Just leave it alone and poof...it regulates and fixes itself! Health care system broken? Easy peasy! We'll give everyone a chicken! Afraid of everyone brown? Not to worry! We'll demonize them, borrow trillions of dollars to bomb their countries, promise to kick them all out of our country and then blame them for the massive debts taboot! Angry about falling behind because your salary never grows and everything else gets more and more expensive? Worry no more! We'll convince you it's really because of your taxes while we reduce taxes for your employers and promise you (with a wink) that it will magically turn into jobs and raises for middle-class workers (that never come for 3 decades)! Confused and beildered by all that "science" everyone's always using to conjure up informed decisions? Never fear! It's really just a conspiracy and the invisible man in the sky is going to smite them all! We have all your simple ideas and easy answers right here...and you too can enjoy them with this shiny new tinfoil hat! Lovingly hand-crafted in Indonesian basements by 8-year-old amputees working for 8 cents per day, these stunning idea reception devices normally go for $99 in specialty shoppes around the country, but we're slashing prices. That's right...for only 3 easy installments of $19.99, you too can join the hordes of millions convinced that facts, evidence and a healthy dose of education are not the routes to solutions, but rather a giant plot to turn the country into a muslim socialist foreigner's dictatorial utopia. Order now and we'll throw in a second tinfoil hat for free! Offer good while supplies last. Do not wear near microwaves, powerlines, during electrical storms or in your tub with your toaster...."

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 7:28 PM    in reply to Sniffit

Yeah and I just went to church on Sunday and you have pretty much nailed the issue down for us. Kudos and thank you Sniffit!

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 8:20 PM    in reply to Sniffit

Now that was good!! Thanks for that

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 12:33 PM   

How about showing him that he's right and make him unemployed?

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

Don

user-pic

July 13, 2010 1:31 PM   

Kyl is a typical Repuke... NOW its important to have funding for all programs, but he had absolutely no problem keeping $1 Trillion for Iraq and Afghanistan off the books and not paid for. Evidently if it benefits his corportate masters and deep pocket bosses, it's OK. If it affects average people, welllllll we need to do something about THAT!!! What a scumbag.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 2:26 PM   

We know who he is looking out for...the rich, the republican's only real backers. Since 90+% of Americans received a tax break from the present administration, this stooge is looking to protect tax breaks for those who make the most money. The VERY RICH have ways to totally avoid paying their fair share.

Remember "trickle-down" economics of the Reagan era? How well is that working out for you? Big breaks for the rich trickle up, not down, while the rest of us pay and pay for their wealth. Why should the average worker subsidize companies who move our jobs and factories to other nations to save money and further cut taxes paid to America?

Do you know how many billions BP and other big oil companies get in government subsidies? $4 billion in annual tax breaks.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 5:16 PM    in reply to Paul

Paul,

The same people who got tax rebates from any of the recent tax breaks also got them under the GOP tax breaks. The facts just don't bear out your assertion that the rich made out under the GOP. The facts are that a greater portion of all taxes paid came from the upper earners and far fewer people in the lower tiers pay any federal tax whatsoever. So the idea that "the rest of us" pay for their tax breaks is exactly wrong.

As for the oil and other company tax breaks, you understand how they work right? Mostly, the company are given incentives to do things that the policy makers think have social value (for example, keeping citizens from rioting at $4 gas). They are given tax credits against the extra expense of doing exploration work in deeper water than would otherwise be economic or for recovery of oil from shale rock, etc.

Me? I'd be fine letting the market work and not giving them any incentives at all, but then I'd be okay with gas going up to $4 or $5 per gallon too. People should pay the true price.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

July 13, 2010 8:57 PM    in reply to truth > spin


If something can be done using a free and open market (and that’s a significant IF) then it is always more efficient to do so. Unfortunately, there are lots of things that prevent things from being a free and open market (objects for which the price is not elastic, such as medical care, and lack of competition, such as utilities and monopolies). We already saw this — when the price of gas hit $4/gallon and it looked like it might keep rising, there was a burst of investment in alternative energy and fuels. Most gas taxes go to pay for roads and highways. Your automobile would be virtually worthless if there weren’t any roads to drive on.

In fact, gas taxes and car registration fees only pay 51% of road construction costs. The rest is paid out of income, sales, property tax, and bond issues. So here is another example of how we subsidize the true cost of driving our oil fed automobiles. Also found an interesting quote from Donald Lubick, who was the US Treasury’s Assistant Secretary for Tax Policy, who said that the petroleum industry “probably has larger tax incentives relative to its size than any other industry in the country”. Estimates place the subsidies received by the oil and gas industry in the US at between $15 and $35 billion.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

Leave a comment

Your response:

Follow us!

Most Popular

TPM Stories Now Surging on