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Lindsey Graham: Birthright Citizenship Is A Mistake (VIDEO)


Sen. Lindsay Graham (R-SC)

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Is Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) starting to step away from his image as a relative GOP moderate? He's now calling for a constitutional amendment to end birthright citizenship for the children of illegal immigrants, an idea that has become a cause célèbre on the right.

"But there's another problem we have in this nation that I think is novel and needs to be fixed. If you come across the border illegally and you have a child in America, automatically, that child becomes an American citizen. Under the 14th Amendment, three court cases says there's a constitutional right to that," Graham said in an appearance Wednesday on Greta Van Susteren's show.

He also added: "But I may introduce a constitutional amendment that changes the rules if you have a child here. Birthright citizenship I think is a mistake, that we should change our Constitution and say if you come here illegally and you have a child, that child's automatically not a citizen."

Birthright citizenship is a legal principle based in the 14th Amendment: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside." In the absence of birthright citizenship, it is possible for someone to be born without having citizenship in any country at all, due to failure to meet some extra requirement that could be imposed, such as ancestry or other circumstances.

(Via Adam Serwer.)

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July 29, 2010 3:26 PM   

Yeah, because those children, anchor babies if you will, are incapable of becoming loyal Americans in the future.

What? America used to believe in the self determination of individuals? Regardless of their origin?

Not according to Butters and the rest of the hard right.

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July 29, 2010 4:38 PM    in reply to mezcalero

Let's ask Tea Party favorite Marc Rubio what he thinks about this...

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July 29, 2010 5:13 PM    in reply to Blueline99

Marco and the wingnuts favorite Filipina Ms.Maglalang.Of course knowing that crew they'd attempt this while looking to carve out exemptions for their favorites like Marco and Ms.Maglalang.

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July 29, 2010 7:25 PM    in reply to donquijoterocket

Marco's got no problem with it, guaranteed. Cubans are not like other Latinos. Cubans get legal residency as soon as they set foot on American shores. Because CASTRO, you know, is the most dangerous dictator in the world.

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Lee

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July 29, 2010 5:11 PM    in reply to mezcalero

With just a little work this proposal may have an upside to it!

With just a slight amendment removing children of undocumented immigrants and replacing that section with a sentence that striped the citizenship from anyone who now or ever has served as a U.S. Senator from South Carolina. The effect of this amendment would then have the added effect of increasing the average IQ of American citizens.

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July 29, 2010 3:28 PM   

How it was:
"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."

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July 29, 2010 4:13 PM    in reply to goodstuff

How it was:
"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."

How it is:

"Only if your white, christian, and wealthy wanting to have your way over the huddled masses of stupids"

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July 29, 2010 4:14 PM    in reply to goodstuff

Shall we start taking bets, as to how long before it also becomes a "right-wing cause celebre", to have those verses removed from the Statue of Liberty?

It'll happen. Bet the farm.

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July 29, 2010 4:54 PM    in reply to Barry Champlain

Anchors away!

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July 29, 2010 3:31 PM   

Nothing new here. Just another Republican tossing the U S Constitution under the bus.

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July 29, 2010 7:09 PM    in reply to pv2k

No, he's talking about amending the Constitution. Doubtlessly, in order to bring it better in line with the nations of Europe he admires so much!

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July 29, 2010 3:33 PM   

Everyone "knows" that mothers come across the border illegally so they can plant a "Manchurian Candidate" type baby poised to cause havoc decades into the future.

Thank goodness we have the Fair and Balanced Faux News and the rest of their fellow travelers to protect us.

Is Lindsey Graham so scared about an election he won't need to face for over two years?

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July 29, 2010 7:27 PM    in reply to PAvoter

Actually, mothers-to-be DO come over the border to give birth, even if they don't stay. It is a real burden, and actual burden, on emergency rooms in Southern California.

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July 29, 2010 3:42 PM   

So every time someone overstays their student visa and has a kid with a US citizen, that child will be subject to deportation for their entire life? Or only if both parents are illegal aliens? So hospitals will have to inquire into the immigration status of every expectant family to ensure they don't accidentally get a SSN for the bundle of joy.

This proposal is so stupid - but at least Lindsey wants to do it through an amendment, thus all but ensuring it won't pass.

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July 29, 2010 4:50 PM    in reply to calbearinillinois

It's not a stupid idea. The amendment was never intended for this purpose and all of you arguing on grounds of "compassion" know this. Not only do illegal aliens come here for this purpose, but parents simply wanting to give their children the option of no-sweat U.S. citizenship do this. Citizenship for the non-native born is a privilege, not a right.

The U.S. is overpopulated and the pool of poorly educated with no or, at best, meager skills, is growing yearly. It's not 1905 and the U.S. isn't a half empty country with great economic growth potential.

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July 29, 2010 5:44 PM    in reply to Nandemosan

Okay, since you think that this is a fantastic idea let me ask you some real-world questions because they *will* come up.

1) If one of your parents is a citizen and one of your parents is not, should you be a citizen or should you be a non-citizen? Or perhaps, you should be a half-citizen who will never have the right to vote?

2) If you were born here to parents who have green cards, are you a citizen?

3) If the answer to 2 is no, is there any amount of time you could be here with your parents who are here legally but are not citizens where you would become a citizen? If not, should you be deported on your 18th birthday?

4) How many generations should your family have been here to be eligible for citizenship? Should it be your parents or your grandparents or your great-grandparents place of birth that should determine citizenship?

5) Does the child of immigrants here legally have any legal rights? If so, which ones? (Since, ostensibly, the Constitution only applies to citizens)

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July 29, 2010 6:03 PM    in reply to ladyfractal

Uh, agree with him or not, Butters answered all these questions when he said, "We should change our Constitution and say if you come here illegally and you have a child, that child's automatically not a citizen." People with green cards are here legally; parents who are citizens are here legally; illegal grandparents are irrelevant.

Seriously now.

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July 29, 2010 6:04 PM    in reply to ladyfractal

Those question are certainly part of the issue BUT they don't immediately kill the idea. Laws have lots of provisions to provide for exceptional circumstances. So why if it is written well (and given some time) would we not be able to solve most of the strange problems and loopholes and could things not be worked out in a prudent fashion?

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July 29, 2010 6:38 PM    in reply to NotMyRealName

I didn't say that these questions should kill the law. For, what I believe, are very good historical reasons I would very strongly prefer the amendment stay as it is. However, if we are going to change it, I think we should do so intelligently. I simply do not trust that the majority would not change the definition of citizenship to something onerous that would end up excluding people who have been here for generations. Since it's the Constitution and since that document ultimately is the final arbiter of what is legally permissible in this nation, there is nothing to prevent the majority from changing it in any way shape or form they so please and can get passed.

There is, for instance, nothing that would prevent the majority from re-writing the Constitution to state that your family must have been here, say, three generations as part of a requirement. Nothing at all.

However, since politics is about horse-trading I have a horse-trade to offer to those in favor of this. I'll support *your* proposal if you'll support my proposal: A 20 year ban on immigration--no one, from anywhere, for any reason save political asylum. This should be something that people who are concerned with immigration should jump at for at least two reasons:

1) It shuts off the flow of immigrants. No overstayed visas, no H1Bs, no green cards, no one gets in.

2) It takes race off the table. Right now, I and a non-trivial number of people of color I've spoken to, listened to or read, have made the not-unreasonable point that if it were Seamus and Mary Katherine from, say, Sheffield immigrating in such large numbers that you could walk across the Atlantic on their shoulders no one would bat an eye. Everyone would smile and pat ourselves on the back and talk about being a nation of immigrants and the wonders of the melting pot. Many of us suspect--and you must admit this nation's track record gives us plenty of reason to be suspicious--that no small part of the energy behind this is that it's the wrong, well, shade of people coming over. It's Jesus and Rajneesh and Chitra and Faisal--that we're not quite so certain is something to celebrate, certainly we feel less warm and fuzzy about it than we do about Seamus.

Now, perhaps we're wrong. Perhaps there's no racial animosity what-so-ever (which, in itself, would be remarkable). But it seems to me that if your concern is immigration and you want to take race off the table, then you should be willing to admit that Jesus, Rajneesh and Seamus will all be turned away while we figure out what to do.

So, do we have a deal? I'll get out and pound pavement for a Constitutional amendment if you get out and pound pavement for a complete moratorium on immigration for 20 years.

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July 29, 2010 7:01 PM    in reply to ladyfractal

i'm taking my ball and going home now because you are confused (and perhaps misguided).

good day Lady who's each part has the same statistical character as the whole geometric figure.

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July 29, 2010 6:16 PM    in reply to ladyfractal

You could have at least made it challenging.

Okay, since you think that this is a fantastic idea let me ask you some real-world questions because they *will* come up.

1) If one of your parents is a citizen and one of your parents is not, should you be a citizen or should you be a non-citizen? Or perhaps, you should be a half-citizen who will never have the right to vote?

This is already the law if one of your parents is a citizen and you happen to have been born abroad. This is common to a lot of nations.

2) If you were born here to parents who have green cards, are you a citizen?

Of course not because neither parent is a citizen.

3) If the answer to 2 is no, is there any amount of time you could be here with your parents who are here legally but are not citizens where you would become a citizen? If not, should you be deported on your 18th birthday?

Nope.

4) How many generations should your family have been here to be eligible for citizenship?

None. No citizenship.

Should it be your parents or your grandparents or your great-grandparents place of birth that should determine citizenship?

Your parents, of course.

5) Does the child of immigrants here legally have any legal rights? If so, which ones? (Since, ostensibly, the Constitution only applies to citizens)

The Constitution, federal, state, county and municipal laws apply to anyone on U.S. soil. That's always been the case. (Except for the fucking wastrel children of diplomats - we need to change this law as well.)

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July 29, 2010 6:22 PM    in reply to Nandemosan

I think you misunderstood my question on how many generations. (And this is actually a reasonable question because in some nations, in order to be a citizen, it is not sufficient for your parents to have been born there but two generations of your family must have been born citizens *before* you.)

We can make the barrier to citizenship as high as you like.

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July 29, 2010 6:29 PM    in reply to Nandemosan

So, you're all about the jus sanguinis: only pure-blooded Americans can be US citizens. Which, given that it's an immigrant, mongrel nation, doesn't seem very fucking American.

Perhaps we can backdate it, and if you can't find a Native American in your bloodline, you're no longer a citizen? That sounds fair to me.

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July 29, 2010 6:54 PM    in reply to pseudonymous in nc

So, you're all about the jus sanguinis: only pure-blooded Americans can be US citizens. Which, given that it's an immigrant, mongrel nation, doesn't seem very fucking American.

Don't be an ass since that's not what jus sanguinis means.

Perhaps we can backdate it, and if you can't find a Native American in your bloodline, you're no longer a citizen? That sounds fair to me.

Me too as my great-great grandmother was Pawnee.

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July 29, 2010 3:46 PM   

While I don't necessarily agree with Lindsey Graham on this, it's not as if this is a far-out wacky idea. Quite a few countries that had jus soli citizenship have modified their laws in the last few decades similar to what Graham is suggesting. It's certainly not crazy to debate whether this should be modified.

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July 29, 2010 3:52 PM    in reply to mans_best_friend

Yes it is crazy when the person pushing the "debate" belongs to the party that harps 24/7 about "respecting the constitution."

The only people who routinely try to amend the constitution are right-wingers--deny citizenship, prevent gay marriage.

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July 29, 2010 4:05 PM    in reply to FreeRider

Need I remind you that the last proposed Constitutional Amendment that passed congress was the Equal Rights Amendment? Proposing a Constitutional Amendment is hardly anti-American or inherently evil. Just because some of the people in favor of this are xenophobic maniacs doesn't mean that there aren't honest arguments in its favor any more than the fact that some of those who favored the ERA were idiots tainted that Amendment.

Can we not have a reasoned and thoughtful debate about this just because a Republican is in favor?

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July 29, 2010 4:18 PM    in reply to mans_best_friend

No, we can't because it isn't coming for a reasoned, thoughtful perspective. It's coming from a "we gotta stop them wetbacks from voting Democrat!"

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July 29, 2010 4:24 PM    in reply to FreeRider

Over the last few decades, the UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand and a few other countries have made changes to their citizenship laws similar to what Graham is suggesting. Were they worried about wetbacks voting Democratic, too?

There are plenty of good arguments against such a proposal, but "because a Republican is in favor of it" is not one of them.

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July 29, 2010 4:32 PM    in reply to mans_best_friend

Most of the countries who have done this have very xenophobic histories and are not and never have been welcoming to immigrants--especially immigrants of color. Basing our citizenship requirements on a country like Australia is NOT a good thing.

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July 29, 2010 4:37 PM    in reply to FreeRider

I am NOT in favor of this. In fact, I'm very much opposed. But I'm also opposed to such a cavalier dismissal of even a debate about it. What are you afraid of?

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July 29, 2010 4:48 PM    in reply to mans_best_friend

You are wasting your time with this commenter, I have learned to ignore any sort of conversation with this person.

The fall of the Berlin wall, and ultimately the USSR has led to much debate, and policy changes in western European countries due to the massive influx of Eastern Europeans, as well as a rapid increase in their Muslim populations.

The banning of head scarves in France recently is a good highlight.

Also in Ireland they have gone to some sort of an extremes where it is illegal to even question the existence of God. The blasphemy law I believe it is called.

Things are in great flux over there it will be interesting to see how it plays out in 10 years.

As far as this idea ever happening in the United States it will never pass the required votes to make it as a Constitutional Amendment.

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July 29, 2010 4:43 PM    in reply to mans_best_friend

The thing is, the U.S. has always propounded the idea of a cultural melange being superior to 'cultural purity'. We're not always so great about actually doing it, but we at least extol that virtue.

Right now, we have millions of people paying taxes for services they can't receive, their children can't enter the workforce and have been sold a dream they are rudely cut off from. Adding people to that list won't help fix the problem.

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July 29, 2010 6:30 PM    in reply to TiminBoulder

While it is true that the publicly stated policy of the U.S. has at least occasionally propounded the idea of a cultural melange being superior to 'cultural purity', it is not nearly as clear that the majority of the citizens agreed with this at any given moment. We have seen many periods when there was strong anti-Catholic, anti-Jewish, anti-German, anti-Asian, anti-Hispanic, anti-black sentiment among the populace.

Similarly, the Constitution and Declaration are both great Enlightenment documents, but the majority of the colonists were Calvinists, and they probably both didn't agree with many of the key points, and were unaware of the specific terms adopted by the Constitutional Congress. The main reason the 1st Amendment and separation of church as state were adopted was because each Christian community feared domination by some other Christian community; most colonists would have preferred their particular sect recognized as the official religion, but if they couldn't get that, they didn't want anybody else's either.

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July 29, 2010 6:40 PM    in reply to mans_best_friend

Need I remind you that the last proposed Constitutional Amendment that passed congress was the Equal Rights Amendment?
That's not true. The District of Columbia Voting Rights Amendment passed Congress years after the ERA did.

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July 29, 2010 4:22 PM    in reply to mans_best_friend

Virtually every country in the Western Hemisphere recognizes jus soli. (Hereditary citizenship seems dominant in most of the Eastern Hemisphere.) Perhaps the descendants of immigrants who dominate the politics of every Western Hemisphere country have traditionally had the humility and wisdom not to require their inhabitants to prove their genealogy as a matter of establishing their legitimate presence in the lands of their birth.

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July 29, 2010 5:01 PM    in reply to Forestdweller

Yes. We certainly wouldn't want to be out of step with Colombia or Barbados.

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July 29, 2010 5:56 PM    in reply to Nandemosan

So how about this? If you are born in the United States to non-citizen parents or if one of your parents is not a citizen, you are not a citizen. If your grandparents were not citizens, you are not a citizen regardless of what country you or your parents were born in.

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July 29, 2010 6:13 PM    in reply to ladyfractal

I believe this to be much more extreme than what Butters is suggesting.

Why do you choose to argue against a straw man?

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July 29, 2010 6:42 PM    in reply to hotspur

Hotspur:

I'm interested in the contours of this debate. I want to see just how far people are willing to go. If the problem is immigration because of a concern about population then we should be trying to erect barriers to immigration that actually *discourage* immigration. Would YOU pick up and move your family half-way across the world, leaving everything behind, if you knew that neither you, nor any of your descendants, would ever be citizens?

I have heard that the problem is that we have a population issue--perhaps we do. At which point we should be doing everything reasonable to discourage growth in population. So if the problem is population based, then we should make the United States a less attractive option for immigrants.

If the problem is something else, then we should address that. I recognize that I phrased my questions clumsily but I wasn't trying to erect a straw man.

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July 29, 2010 7:05 PM    in reply to ladyfractal

Of course we should be discouraging immigration. How many people in this thread remember that as of around 1970 the U.S. was nearing ZPG? The U.S. population has doubled since then.

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July 29, 2010 4:43 PM    in reply to mans_best_friend

Of course debate is good, but how is it that we can forget who we are as a nation.

The right often talks about US Exceptionalism... well, to me, the Great American Melting pot is what makes America great. It's why Islamic Extremists hate us. It's what makes this the greatest country in the world.

How will the US compete with China in the world if we don't ask for the world tired and poor.

If this passes we will have to return the Statue of Liberty to France.

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July 29, 2010 7:42 PM    in reply to Blueline99

This sounds like a bad pep talk from an even worse movie.

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July 29, 2010 3:55 PM   

Think of the "great" Americans like Michele Malkin that would have been denied citizenship if people like Graham had his way 40 years ago.

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July 29, 2010 3:58 PM    in reply to windowpane

Malkin's parents were not here here illegally when she was "spawned." Her parents were on an employee-sponsored visa.

Let's not discredit ourselves by going all Faux News and just making shit up.

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July 29, 2010 4:09 PM    in reply to FreeRider

Graham's brief explanation of his proposal mentions "illegals" but would have to be refined and fleshed out in a full amendment.

Once you've eliminated the concept of birthright citizenship, on what grounds do you extend the right to non-citizen, legal work visa holders (like Malkin's parents)?

Are we to specify that only visa-holding parents on a path to citizenship are granted the privilege? What about non-illegal tourists? This fails on a variety of levels.

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July 29, 2010 4:29 PM    in reply to Thomas

Every proposal to date has specified "children born to parents who have entered this country ILLEGALLY". It doesn't say "children born to parents who are not citizens." It says ILLEGALLY!

It's still an abhorrent proposal, IMO, even without lying about what it says.

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July 29, 2010 4:44 PM    in reply to FreeRider

Well, there are lots of gray areas.

Suppose the parents *entered* the country legally, but stayed past their visa, perhaps because the woman couldn't fly because of pregnancy?

Suppose you entered the country illegally but subsequently earned some legal status?

What if one parent is a citizen and the other isn't?

It isn't as clear an issue as one might assume.

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July 29, 2010 4:53 PM    in reply to eric the red

"What if one parent is a citizen and the other isn't?"

Nothing grey about that. It is only necessary that one parent be a citizen, which is typical of most countries that have this law regarding citizenship.

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July 29, 2010 5:00 PM    in reply to Nandemosan

Does it need to be the *biological* parent? In my state, the husband is presumed to be the father, whether or not he actually is. And we aren't going to be forcing paternity tests, are we?

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July 29, 2010 5:39 PM    in reply to Thomas

"Once you've eliminated the concept of birthright citizenship, on what grounds do you extend the right to non-citizen, legal work visa holders (like Malkin's parents)?"

Of course not. At least one of the parents needs to be a citizen.

"Are we to specify that only visa-holding parents on a path to citizenship are granted the privilege? What about non-illegal tourists? This fails on a variety of levels."

No it doesn't as you've just described the Mack truck-sized loop hole that exists now. It's not that complicated. And "on the path to citizenship" means that he or she is not a citizen.

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July 29, 2010 3:58 PM   

Next thing you know he'll hate gays.

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July 29, 2010 4:05 PM   

C'mon Lindsey, you can do it! You're ALMOST to where the teabaggers in SC will forgive you for voting for Kagan - just come out and say that abolishing slavery was a bad idea already! ;)

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July 29, 2010 4:10 PM   

If I recall correctly, the 14th Amendment's citizenship clause was adopted to undo one of the more pernicious holdings in the Dred Scott case. Since the Dred Scott case is probably the low water mark of American jurisprudence (and is often used by the right as a point of comparison with Roe v. Wade), GOPers taking this position should be asked if their proposed amendments would reinstate Dred Scott's "whites only" rule as well.

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July 29, 2010 4:13 PM   

Europe saw this light years ago; I don't know why this isn't a very valid debate. The Irish were hold-outs, but they too recently changed their laws so that children have the same citizenship as their mother, IF the mother is in the country illegally. This was after one year when 50% of the births in the Dublin maternity hospital were to Nigerian women (who were literally in labor on the plane to Dublin). An Irish baby gave the mother the right to a passport to Europe, not to mention generous child benefits that the country couldn't afford.

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July 29, 2010 5:05 PM    in reply to PaddyMac

And about half the people in this thread calling Graham an idiot will try to argue that this isn't happening here all that much, except in California. Oh, and Arizona. Uh, then there's Texas, New Mexico, Washington. Ah, fuck.

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July 29, 2010 4:26 PM   

Do you suppose the debate will ever focus on "why" people choose to have their children have citizenship in a country other than theirs?

Could it be that theirs is so messed up, they want better for their children? Isn't that what we all want, the best for our children?

Why is it that we want so badly to keep others from having what we have, when what we have was simply because of an accident of birth? Do you know how fortunate that makes us? Do you have even an ounce of compassion for those who just happened to be born to a poor woman in another part of the world? To those who much is given, much is expected...

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July 29, 2010 4:34 PM    in reply to stillidealistic

Americans, and indeed citizens of other countries, are not collectively responsible for the plight of the poor and unfortunate in other parts of the world. Of course I am sympathetic to their suffering, but that does not mean that anyone who wants to have what we have can or should be able to just waltz in. Why have any immigration policy at all?

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July 31, 2010 5:27 PM    in reply to yalej

We don't have much of one. Illegals come in and we give a wink and a nod for them to be here when times are good and we can't be bothered with cleaning our own houses or watching our own children, or we need someone to work at jobs that are too hard and pay too little for many Americans. But when times get tough and people have to do those jobs, we want to kick out all the people who came in years and years ago and made lives for themselves.

When we close the border and finally put together an immigration policy, it'll be different. But I don't see how we can let people in, then scream cuz they're here.

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July 29, 2010 4:55 PM    in reply to stillidealistic

No. We will never have that discussion. We are too immature. Right now the whole immigration debate is just code for get the brown people out of here.

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July 29, 2010 5:13 PM    in reply to stillidealistic

"Do you suppose the debate will ever focus on "why" people choose to have their children have citizenship in a country other than theirs?"

"Could it be that theirs is so messed up, they want better for their children? Isn't that what we all want, the best for our children?"

No. I think everyone understands this. And the Atlantic Monthly, back when it wasn't a neo-con rag, ran several good articles in the lat 1980s about this. There is still some validity to the argument that anyone wishing to get here bad enough that they will do so by illegal means, risking, injury, imprisonment or even death, have to be very motivated people.

That being said, the law of averages dictate that most of the people willing to risk these things don't necessarily bring anything with them much beyond the desire to escape a bad government and/or economy.

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July 29, 2010 4:26 PM   

Less preposterous...let's take away citizenship from children of Republicans....

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July 29, 2010 4:31 PM   

Despite these strengths, the Nazi Party might never have come to power had it not been for the Great Depression and its effects on Germany. By 1930 the German economy was beset with mass unemployment and widespread business failures. The SPD and the KPD parties were bitterly divided and unable to formulate an effective solution; this gave the Nazis their opportunity, and Hitler's message, blaming the crisis on the Jewish financiers and the Bolsheviks resonated with wide sections of the electorate.

Just replace the Jews with the illegal immigrants and we have an almost parallel rise of a party bent on the same ideals as the Nazis held in the 1930's.

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July 29, 2010 4:31 PM   

I find it especially appropriate for a Senator from South Carolina to propose a change to the amendment that gave slaves citizenship.

BTW, suppose you are the child of two non-citizens forcibly taken into this country? Citizen or no?

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July 29, 2010 4:34 PM   

This is Sweet!! First, most center-right republicans feel exactly the same way. However, this requires 'tinkering' with the constitution, and we all know how much they want to honor the original intent of the Founding (genuflect and shout 'all hail')Fathers. So this puts them somewhat of a unique position: it is bad..BaD...BAD...for the central government to even THINK about something other than what the Founders actually 'writ'...unless of course it pertains to minorities. If Tancredo, or his ilk, had spun this out it would have been immediately discounted as the rantings of a loon. Squishy RINO Graham, on the other hand, puts this squarely in the middle of the prospective Repub playbook where all must take a stand.

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July 29, 2010 4:39 PM   

This will never happen.

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July 29, 2010 4:40 PM   

They want their kids in our schools, speaking our language, watching our movies, working in our malls, serving in our military? And this is a problem?

Sure, they may not be as rich or as white as we would like, but you go to the future with the children you have, not with the children you might want or wish you had at a later time.

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July 29, 2010 6:21 PM    in reply to darosenthal

Nailed it.

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July 29, 2010 4:42 PM   

I agree with Lindsey! Now, which Native American tribe or council decides whose parents are here legally?

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July 29, 2010 4:55 PM    in reply to destor23

I agree and would go one step further. Why not expel the grandchildren and great grandchildren. In fact, neither the pilgrims nor Columbus were invited to stay... and have done irreparable harm to this once great country... like having tea party and republican offspring...

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aq

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July 29, 2010 4:49 PM   

Wait. I thought the constitution was an immutable object that we should never change, because, being what the founding fathers thought, is perfect in the design.

Amirite?

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July 29, 2010 4:59 PM   

The problem I have is that when looking at the abstract, it seems sensible, but when looking at the intent, it's specifically targeting a particular demographic. I want to know more. His proposal, offered with none of the complications inherent in ending birthright citizenship, only fuels the flames of wingnuttery. He knows this, of course. He's an asshole. A maverick asshole. The problem with a maverick asshole is that you don't know who they're gonna shit on next.

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July 29, 2010 5:05 PM   

In 1968, the GOP Vice Presidential candidate was the son of an un-naturalized immigrant. At the time, the GOP mantra was "What a great country, where the son of an immigrant can run for one of the highest offices in the land."

So, it was OK for Spiro Agnew to be a benefactor of the 14th amendment, but its now suddenly wrong for anyone else to benefit.

I loath the GOP and the RWNJs for their hypocrisy.

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July 29, 2010 6:02 PM    in reply to GreatGrey

just an aside for the young who may not be aware...

During his fifth year as Vice President, in the late summer of 1973, Agnew was under investigation by the United States Attorney's office in Baltimore, Maryland, on charges of extortion, tax fraud, bribery and conspiracy. In October, he was formally charged with having accepted bribes totaling more than $100,000, while holding office as Baltimore County Executive, Governor of Maryland, and Vice President of the United States. On October 10, 1973, Agnew was allowed to plead no contest to a single charge that he had failed to report $29,500 of income received in 1967, with the condition that he resign the office of Vice President.


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LJG

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July 29, 2010 5:10 PM   

On the one hand, I think AZ 1070 is a right-wing, un-American proposal. Furthermore, the first feeling I have towards illegal immigrants is compassion. I also support amnesty and a path to earned citizenship for the millions of illegals who are in the U.S. now. Nevertheless, I think Graham's proposal is worth considering. As an environmentalist who lives half the year in Arizona, I would say that the state is already way over its capacity to sustain good quality human life while protecting what's left of our wildlife and natural beauty. When we have newborn American citizens whose parents are non-citizens,endless problems and heartbreaks will will ensue.

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July 29, 2010 5:13 PM   

So the child is a U.S. citizen, I don't see where that confers any rights on the child's parents. Upon deportation, they have a choice: take the child along, or put the child up for adoption by legal residents.

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July 29, 2010 5:17 PM   

There must be an immense administrative burden inherent in a proposal like this. How many children are born daily whose parents' status as "illegals" is questionable, but not certain? At first blush, this seems to present a practical problem that will result in children's citizenship status being held in limbo for years as their parents' status is also determined.

In any event, amending the constitution, in this political environment, is probably impossible. So, the entire amendment becomes an exercise in divisive politicking. That's probably no surprise, though unfortunate from a purported "centrist" like Graham.

Where can we find reliable statistics on the scale of this phenomenon? How does it compare to the cost of administering a policy that creates stateless children? I would think there's lower-hanging fruit in the immigration debate...

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July 29, 2010 5:21 PM   

Just goes to show further that NOTHING is as important to the clowns in Washington as getting and becoming more powerful.
We have elected the scum of this nation repeatably into power so that now... they are actually changing our entire social structure and laying waste to our heritage.
There have always been dissenters, racists, folk who would throw away scruples and values and allow the ends to justify the means, but in this point of time, the members of BOTH parties, although espousing different views, are striving toward the same end... destruction of our nation as a whole.

When our officials from BOTH mobs can condone and promote illegal wars and torture while blaming each other...
When both mobs can blame each other for the destruction of our financial system while at the same time being a party to it...
When both parties can support our increased military offensives, yet espouse peace...
When BOTH mobs have allowed our health care system to run amok and health care to deteriorate for their own personal gain...
When BOTH mobs refuse to limit their power or that of the executive because they may desire to abuse that power themselves...

We now have two parties... each which has refused to protect us from the "bad guys"... each which has refused to enforce border and immigration laws... each of which has neglected to promote honesty , integrity , and ethics by their own actions... each of which have invaded innocent nations without cause...
And we the voters and commoners are angry and disappointed that these two mobs which we continue to elect and reelect are not acting the way we think they should...
Currently, though, the rate we are disintegrating appears to be alarming... IMHO

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July 29, 2010 5:28 PM   

He's convinced me: I am now in favor of intelligence citizenship. You're on the next plane out, Lindsey.

PS There's a practical issue of stateless people - if the child's home country doesn't automatically provide citizenship and if the US doesn't, that child is without any citizenship. I guess, ironically, the child wouldn't be admitted to any other country because it wouldn't have a passport, so the child would have to stay in the US, just without status.

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July 29, 2010 5:56 PM    in reply to heraldsquare

Why should we be concerned with a few "stateless" people?

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July 29, 2010 6:33 PM    in reply to NotMyRealName

Because they're people?

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July 29, 2010 7:19 PM    in reply to heraldsquare

That's a rather glib answer considering that there are thousands of people of all kinds that the system neglects, overlooks, or intentionally marginalizes and they already belong within the system ... why should be care? (it's not like we are killing them or putting them on a life boat in the Atlantic)

Plus how many of these "stateless" people would this create?

Why couldn't a "stateless" person born here be given a path to naturalization when they reach a certain age?

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July 29, 2010 7:24 PM    in reply to heraldsquare

Once they're no longer fetuses, the right doesn't care about them.

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July 29, 2010 7:58 PM    in reply to FLRealist

your poor attempt at an already tired joke misses the point (and it presumes that I'm something that in fact i'm far from) -

I am not trying to be heartless or crass rather I feel the idea (why should we care about stateless people) is valid though I perhaps stated it too simply - why should a tiny group of stateless babies impede an examination of a policy that has flaws. Why is unpacking possible options a bad thing even if it goes against liberal orthodoxy (though no one has been able to give a solid reason why it's a good idea to keep it as is...)

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July 30, 2010 10:56 AM    in reply to NotMyRealName

What makes you think I was joking? It's what I truly believe - the right doesn't care about children, especially minority or poor children, once they're born. Oh, they push to ban abortion, but then they want to do away with any assistance for the mother. No healthcare. No public education. No free lunches in schools. Lower wages.

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July 29, 2010 5:38 PM   

We must destroy the Constitution ...in order to save it.

...deport a gay Latino baby for Jebus!

Jack

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July 29, 2010 5:43 PM   

Oh come on. You know the real problem is that it's brown people coming over here and having babies. If it was white people there would be no controversy over it.

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July 29, 2010 5:50 PM   

I'm not exactly sure where i stand on this issue but the argument (at least in these comments) is being argued better by those who oppose it. There seems to be a lack of cogent reasoning for those that want to maintain jus soli. Really the only rational arguments have been from people that lean towards overturning it. Those in favor of jus soli have produced a rather weak list:

- Some dismiss it because of the messenger ... "Yes it is crazy when the person pushing the "debate" belongs to the party ..."(certainly L.G. is a sorry excuse for a human and may be hypocritical for a member of the GOP to suggest a constitutional amendment - but it doesn't defeat the idea outright.)
- Some are anti-change ... "its now suddenly wrong for anyone else to benefit." (as if things don't change or should not if it were appropriate)
- Some find it outright racist though ... "it's specifically targeting a particular demographic" (There is in fact little evidence to insinuate this beside one's own paranoia?)
- Some claim that it mirrors Nazi Germany ... "Just replace the Jews with the illegal immigrants ...." (this is TOO stupid to refute)
- Some use trite sayings ... "Give me your tired, your poor ..." (as if a slogan should dictate contemporary policy)

SERIOUSLY can someone outline a few good reasons why it makes sense to keep it in place? I am trying to understand where I stand on this and I would like to hear other ideas.

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July 29, 2010 5:53 PM   

So how would this work?? If you were born here, you aren't a citizen. Unless your parents are citizens, but, if they were born here that doesn't make them citizens, if their parents were born here and their parents..... Aside from Native Americans (who, despite being born here, presumably still aren't citizens to Lindsay) almost everyone in America is the descendant of an immigrant and was born here.

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July 29, 2010 6:07 PM   

this fools likes to have it both ways...he denounces the crazies in the republicans party, but he embraces the crazies when its convenient for him/her. lol

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July 29, 2010 6:15 PM   

Lindsey, we should just get rid of you!

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July 29, 2010 6:42 PM   

Graham... another Repub style "strict constructionist".

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July 29, 2010 6:47 PM   

Why does Lindsay Graham hate the Constitution?

And why do all the Constitutional purists in the Teabaggery party (most of whom have never read the Constitution, or lack the ability to understand it) support a repeal of a Constitutionally mandated birthright citizenship?

Why, Oh why?

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July 29, 2010 7:14 PM   

I don't have a problem with this amendment. I do think it would discourage pregnant women from coming here before they give birth and would discourage illegal immigration in general. I think it should be made clear, however, that children of permanent residents (green card holders) SHOULD be citizens.

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July 29, 2010 7:23 PM   

hey, why not make it if you never served in the military you are not a citizen. That should shake things up quite a bit.
We would have way fewer wars and almost no right wingers.

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August 3, 2010 9:05 AM    in reply to jsixis

You forget all those sunshine patriots who sign up for the shortest hitch when no conflict is on the horizon and spend the rest of their lives masturbating about what a noble citizen they are.

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July 29, 2010 7:25 PM   

Graham is the most spineless creature in the Senate. His ignorance is becoming more apparent as well. Yer toast Lindsey, you're in the Lohan zone. Nothing is going to save you from the pitchforks of your soon to be former constituents.

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July 29, 2010 8:09 PM   

Republicans!

They want to allow people who weren't born here to be eligible to run for president (John McCain, Arnold Schwarzenegger) but they want to deny people who were actually born here their rightful citizenship.

Methinks the Lindsey doth protest too much.

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July 29, 2010 9:06 PM    in reply to lovethesinner

first point is valid
second point only includes the future tense and to a limited degree
And third Why does everyone use this dumb quote?

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July 29, 2010 8:23 PM   

My son was just born in the UK to US citizens (here legally) and is not a UK citizen yet. At first, I was surprised because I always thought the US approach of conferring citizenship was universal, but over time I have really appreciated what a special American concept it is that anyone born within our borders is granted citizenship. The fact that some mothers have traversed miles and extreme difficulties to qualify for that privilege matters. I have to believe that parents who have made those sacrifices and are able to tell that story to their children are creating the most patriotic of all of our future citizens.

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July 29, 2010 9:02 PM    in reply to samhell

you're funny.

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July 29, 2010 9:06 PM   

Well, he might as well go all the way and rescind the citizenship
of all except the native indians, cause everyone effing one else is a "birthright baby."

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July 29, 2010 9:19 PM   

I predict white Americans of any nominal political persuasion will support this.

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July 29, 2010 9:21 PM   

Yes, I can think of nothing that will make our society safer, more humane and prosperous than engineering things so that we create a population of stateless people living amongst us.

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July 29, 2010 9:35 PM   

I think that the distinction as to whether a mother is in the country legally or illegally is a distraction. I would like just as much like to see a stop to wealthy Asians come to the US on tourist visas in order to have a US citizen in the family as an anchor baby. Does nobody else see how the 14th amendment is abused by creating children specifically and only for the purpose of subverting the immigration and naturalization process?
Suggesting that such an amendment to the constitution is merely an attack on poor, darkskinned children is naive and ignores the other flaws in the system.

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July 29, 2010 10:13 PM    in reply to Potomacker

creating children specifically and only for the purpose of subverting the immigration and naturalization process?

Maybe you're overstating your case just a tiny bit?

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July 30, 2010 2:30 PM    in reply to Devon

He's not. They are also coming here for us to pay the hospital bill. Nearly a third of the women who gave birth at the hospital I worked at were heading right back to Mexico after having their baby.

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July 31, 2010 1:05 PM    in reply to Devon

No, not. Jackie Chan married Lin Feng-Jiao and their son, Jaycee Chan, is an American citizen. Not that he works in the US or lives there much. His career is based in Taiwan, but the Chinese in general like to give their children all the advantages in life that they can. Do you need more examples, or from different Asian groups?

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July 30, 2010 3:59 AM   

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July 30, 2010 8:02 AM   

Lindsey, Lindsey, Lindsey, skipping down the street in his summer linens. What a sweet boy.

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