
Las Vegas -- Former White House green jobs "czar" Van Jones told progressive activists and bloggers today that, rather than bash President Obama for not changing the country as fast as they'd thought, they should maintain hope and help him with his agenda.
"I can't stand it. President Obama volunteered to be the captain of the Titanic after it hit the iceberg," Jones said at Netroots Nation while being interviewed by journalist Ari Melber of The Nation. (Follow our live coverage here.)
Jones, who resigned last year after conservatives targeted him as an extreme leftist, refrained from any Obama-slamming of his own. Speaking to a large second-day crowd, Jones reminded the group that he quit and wasn't pushed out. "I resigned. I did not want to be the banana peel that the president of the United States slipped on trying to win on health care," Jones said.
He cautioned bloggers from despairing and going after Obama. "This is harder than it looks. Having spent six months in the White House, it's a totally different experience when you're sitting there and the missiles are coming over the horizon at you," he said.
While some expected Jones, now with the Center for American Progress, to go after the administration for failing to get climate change done this year, he said he thinks it still can be done.
Jones said he agrees with Sen. John Kerry, who said today that his bill has a chance in the lame-duck session after the midterm election. "He is right that thing this is not over.
... There are many things that can change the math," Jones said. He said that "red state America is struggling because of our stupid energy policy" and that if the government doesn't act, the U.S. will go from an oil economy from Middle East to a clean energy economy imported from Asia, "skipping the jobs" in between.
Jones said that while, "most of us feel lost and lonely," the netroots should soldier on.
"If you keep the hope alive, change is still possible," Jones said in his opening speech. Jones said the group can't allow themselves to "blow your own candle out. We have to keep hope alive."
He said progressives "did not lay down" during the 8 years of the Bush administration and shouldn't "expect other people to lay down for you" just because Obama's election was celebrated as a breakthrough.
"We really believed we'd gotten to some sort of finish line. In fact all we'd done was gotten to a starting line," he said.
Jones said the netroots need to realize they are up against an "epic" force with the conservative media movement, which is trying to "bury everything you fought for everything you believe in," and comparing it to the Lord of the Rings. "These are orcs, they are here, and they are coming for you," he said.
Watch Jones' full opening speech here.
Apphouse50
July 23, 2010 2:10 PM
Why is expressing frustration and disappointment at some things the Obama administration has done (including dumping Jones) the equivalent of not helping with the agenda? Who sez critics of things like the Sherrod situation, promises about Gitmo and torture, appointment of clowns like Geithner and the Justice Dept. dropping the ball on the US attorney deal aren't supporters of what we were told were the goals of the administration?
Just because we push hard for things we want doesn't put us in the same camp as, say, someone who teams up with the likes of Grover Norquist. Some of us just like to stand our ground as we watch in fear of too frequent capitulation. That's a bad thing?
Who knew?
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July 23, 2010 2:54 PM in reply to Apphouse50
Van is fucking right on. We are at war with the right not Obama. Smarten the fuck up! Pronto!
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Apphouse50
July 23, 2010 4:15 PM in reply to Dave
Well, whaddya know? I guess I didn't get the memo about how I was supposed to be part of a pep squad and never raise an eyebrow over disappointments with Barack "God" Obama. Evidently I'm not alone, and it's pretty strange because they were all over us for donations, which they got through the primaries and the fall campaign, and to do canvassing. Oh, and then there was the time I stood for 8 solid hours in Boston near the waterfront the night before Super Tuesday and was up on the stage at the event where Obama appeared. Not a peep about having to be an automaton, and I would've remembered because I'm also not into religion.
Change you can believe in. Okay. Starting when?
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Libertine
July 23, 2010 8:23 PM in reply to Apphouse50
Hmmmmm...it seems he never meant all of that stuff about change that got so many of us all enthused. But he did say it so very sincerely, even if light on the details. Won't get fooled again though...
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July 23, 2010 4:28 PM in reply to Dave
CO-SIGNED!!!
The anti Obama's approach rants are starting to remind me of the complaints you too often hear after a defense boxer's victories, criticizing the lack of blood-letting while ignoring the result.
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Geoff Johnson
July 23, 2010 6:24 PM in reply to Dirk
Then you probably don't understand the complaints of a lot of those of us you label "anti-Obama." The complaints ARE about results: not closing Gitmo, pursuing nearly identical policies to those of Bush when it comes to state secrets and detention of accused terrorists, escalating the war in Afghanistan, and a host of domestic issues that have not gone as well as we might have hoped. Obama has had to deal with a dysfunctional congress and a popular backlash and that explains a lot of the problems in terms of the domestic styff, but the foreign policy-type failures largely belong to him.
I'm not asking you to agree with the critics, but it's absurd to pretend that the critique is just about methods and not results.
Finally, a lot of this "pro" and "anti" Obama bickering on TPM could be reduced or eliminated if folks just accepted that not everyone here shares identical or even necessarily similar politics. Some are actually fairly moderate, some left-liberal, and some fairly radical in their orientation. Given that, it's not surprising that we disagree about Obama's performance, and there's nothing inherently illegitimate about any of these views.
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chameleon
July 23, 2010 4:43 PM in reply to Dave
Co-sign but I've been saying the same thing for 18 months and getting beat up by the whiners and complainers. They don't have a fucking clue. Apparenlty they are content to have the dems lose in 2010 and putt the thugs back in power. It doesn't get more pathetic than that.
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Geoff Johnson
July 23, 2010 6:33 PM in reply to chameleon
I wish you could hear how what you say sounds to someone in my shoes, chameleon--really. Simply because someone disagrees with you about Obama does not mean they want the GOP to take the House or the Senate back, obviously. Unlike you I'm very critical of much (certainly not all) of what the Obama administration has done for the last year and a half, but I absolutely don't want the Republicans back in power. You and I (and lots of people who comment here, 99% of whom don't want the GOP in power) just have different views, and frankly our politics are almost certainly somewhat different.
And you know what? That's fine. We can agree to disagree and discuss the issues in a respectful fashion, perhaps at times even persuading one another. What bothers me, and you see a lot of it here from "both sides," is the assumption that anyone who disagrees with you is exactly the same as one's "worst enemy." For example, "people who don't criticize Obama on Afghanistan are no different than Bush supporters" or "people who criticize Obama regularly want the Republicans back in power." Aren't we all smart enough to avoid these absurd and obviously inaccurate binary reductions?
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chameleon
July 24, 2010 12:08 AM in reply to Geoff Johnson
Okay - time out. Geoff I have seen your posts before. I have seen your
"back and forths" with FreeRider so I know your position on Obama. Look, criticzing is one thing -bashing is another - and diminishing what he has accomplished as "crap" is not constructive criticism and if you haven't threatened to vote green then accept my apologies - having said that, are you going to tell me that you have not seen the posts exhibiting the behavior I have just spoken of by "progressives" like you? I doubt any Obama supporters in here deny yours or anyone's right to criticize him, but to call him a corporatist and a corporate whore, Bush lite and all the other ridiculous comments, is just plain wrong. The way this system works is in place and it is in place because the people who control the purse strings say so. The only thing they arent always able to control is how people vote. So when a guy like Obama is elected, the big guns come out to "keep him in line" . I think it speaks volumes of his commitment to the fact that he has been able to get past all those layers to accomplish what he has. The progs have been dissing him almost since the day he took office and it hasn't stopped. If you all keep poisoning the well everyone will stay home on election night or vote green and if the republicans gain a majority - whose fault is it going to be? When people commit to change, they should be in it for the duration or not at all.
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Goober Peas
July 23, 2010 3:33 PM in reply to Apphouse50
Hmm, bash Jane Hamsher and the FireDogLake community as an aside while whining about Jones’s criticisms of your own centrality and reasonableness. Sounds a bit churlish and immature to me, but what do I know?
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Apphouse50
July 23, 2010 4:17 PM in reply to Goober Peas
Sounds a bit churlish and immature to me, but what do I know?
Not much, evidently. Now go back to your shrine and light some more candles.
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Ahmedsaid
July 23, 2010 3:46 PM in reply to Apphouse50
Nutroots? That anything like Journolist?
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rider
July 23, 2010 4:07 PM in reply to Apphouse50
Why doesn,t Van Jones stand up and speak out about 9-11 it is what we are all waiting to hear the truth about?---- October 9, 2001 – Although uniformly ignored by the mainstream U.S. media, there is abundant and clear evidence that a number of transactions in financial markets indicated specific (criminal) foreknowledge of the September 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. In the case of at least one of these trades -- which has left a $2.5 million prize unclaimed -- the firm used to place the “put options” on United Airlines stock was, until 1998, managed by the man who is now in the number three Executive Director position at the Central Intelligence Agency.
Until 1997 A.B. “Buzzy” Krongard had been Chairman of the investment bank A.B. Brown. A.B. Brown was acquired by Banker’s Trust in 1997. Krongard then became, as part of the merger, Vice Chairman of Banker’s Trust-AB Brown, one of 20 major U.S. banks named by Senator Carl Levin this year as being connected to money laundering. Krongard’s last position at Banker’s Trust (BT) was to oversee “private client relations.” In this capacity he had direct hands-on relations with some of the wealthiest people in the world in a kind of specialized banking operation that has been identified by the U.S. Senate and other investigators as being closely connected to the laundering of drug money.
Krongard joined the CIA in 1998 as counsel to CIA Director George Tenet. He was promoted to CIA Executive Director by President Bush in March of this year. BT was acquired by Deutsche Bank in 1999. The combined firm is the single largest bank in Europe. And, as we shall see, Deutsche Bank played several key roles in events connected to the September 11 attacks.
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neesy08
July 23, 2010 5:05 PM in reply to rider
you miss the point. 9/11 was on bush's watch. we have more imprtant matters to deal with. van jones is right. progressives and those on the eft have ben whining, bitching, c omplaining every since obama was sworn in. all i hear is how come obama doesn't/didn't do this? if he doesn't______________, i/we won't vote for him in 2010. when is he going to address?_______________. for god's sake, nuf already! as jones said, obama tok over from a ship that was not only sinking, but strayed off course before sinking. he is trying to right everything. you are not going to get a piece of legislation out of the house that hass 100% what you think it should have.
when has that ever happened? be glad obama has accomplished what he has. yes, the legislation can be improved on, but for now, appreciate what has gotten done. how much better would you be if you were obama and dealing with obstructionists gopers,bakstabbing members of your party, and a fake news station that comes at you 24/7 with lies?
that said, some things are avoidable-such as the sherod fiasco. obama needs to quit throwing black folkss and organizations that work with the poor under the bus. and he needs to quit believeing everything from a certain fake news organization. for a man noted for his intellect, hehasn't shown much in dealin with that news station. he needs to take a chill pill
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dtOZONE
July 23, 2010 4:12 PM in reply to Apphouse50
Because you're not fighting for an agenda, you're fighting against the leaders.
if you need to build a bridge, you don't slam the designers because they can't get the supplies to build you, you help them get the supplies
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Apphouse50
July 23, 2010 4:21 PM in reply to dtOZONE
I still want someone to explain how criticizing what they did in the Sherrod case, for example, is the equivalent of fighting the leaders. Because I reject that entirely. You have no idea whatsoever what I think of Obama's agenda, but presume I'm in opposition to it because I and others have the temerity to question some of his actions.
Are you always so compliant?
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FreeRider
July 23, 2010 4:44 PM in reply to Apphouse50
Everybody, including the president, has admitted they fucked up on the Sherrod case. No one is defending how that was handled.
You're not complaining about the handling of that case; you're trashing everything this president has accomplished. You nutbags were pissed off long before the Sherrod case. You're using that to say "we told you, he couldn't be trusted!"
Fuck you!
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Apphouse50
July 23, 2010 5:13 PM in reply to FreeRider
You seriously need to get a grip. There's meds for what ails you.
And you'd have to work damned hard to find me in the front lines of Obama bashing, but if that's what you think, prove it. I don't always buy into everything he's done or not done (DADT is a great example), but I'm not unhappy at the thought that people can speak up when they feel they're being let down. Doesn't mean let down entirely, but on some specific issues, yeah. Who decided that's not allowed? YOU? LOL.
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Apphouse50
July 23, 2010 5:26 PM in reply to FreeRider
And by the way, if you're so sure of yourself, check out my comments at DK, there's plenty to look through.
But you won't do that because you're a lazyass dolt who thinks peppering comments with "Fuck you's" puts you on the dais and gives you street cred.
You're pathetic, you and your exclamation points.
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dtOZONE
July 23, 2010 4:40 PM in reply to Apphouse50
Because you're not fighting for an agenda, you're fighting against the leaders.
if you need to build a bridge, you don't slam the designers because they can't get the supplies to build you, you help them get the supplies
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July 23, 2010 5:40 PM in reply to Apphouse50
I would give up if i were the Obama zombies, we aren't giving up this great country to a bunch of socialists.
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FreeRider
July 23, 2010 2:11 PM
Ooooh, I bet that crowd was pissed! Did they boo Jones for "insufficient Obama bashing"?
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It's Pat
July 23, 2010 2:19 PM in reply to FreeRider
Heh. Good question.
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rockdart
July 23, 2010 3:02 PM in reply to FreeRider
for one who bitches (nice avatar, btw) about Dems fighting, you sure do a lot of it yourself. Seems each story I've read today, there you are, licking yourself (again, nice avatar) and spitting out your own (h)airs in comments.
Look - a car: chase!
I get Van's point. I get a lot of people's point who feel the same way - but you have to understand too, that if we need to speak up against what the government is doing, we need to do so - not to just pick on Britney, but to move the Overton Window.
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FreeRider
July 23, 2010 3:50 PM in reply to rockdart
I'm sure that, in your mind, that post was clever and relevant.
*yawn*
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rockdart
July 23, 2010 4:10 PM in reply to FreeRider
yes, please. go back under the porch.
Overton Window. How the right has been winning. If clues were bones, somebody would be starving.
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Apphouse50
July 23, 2010 4:25 PM in reply to FreeRider
Maybe you should take a nap. You've been in yawn mode all afternoon.
And by the way, you've used up your ration of exclamation points for the next year.
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Hobbes83
July 23, 2010 2:13 PM
Wow, so what do all the firebaggers do now that Van Jones has come out and said this?
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Apphouse50
July 23, 2010 2:14 PM in reply to Hobbes83
Perhaps suggest something along the lines of Stockholm Syndrome.
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Philv
July 23, 2010 2:59 PM in reply to Hobbes83
Probably lump him in with the other "traitors"
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expat46
July 23, 2010 4:16 PM in reply to Hobbes83
call him an Obamabot.
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chameleon
July 23, 2010 4:59 PM in reply to Hobbes83
He will become the enemy. Hey Hobbes I just met with Marinus. He was passing through LA for some retirement ceremony for a friend in Oxnard, California. He told me to say hello to you and to tell you he and I met.
He's a good guy and he doesn't deserve the bashing he took in the Cafe. He gets a bit excited at times but who wouldn't dealing with the likes of that ugly blue veggie and the Obama bashers.
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Libertine
July 23, 2010 2:20 PM
Click here for my message to Van...
Have a nice day man.
:)
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kash79
July 23, 2010 2:20 PM
The "net roots" are the idiots to consider themselves as the "base" for the democratic party. This sense of entitlement and rejection is naive and amateur.
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FreeRider
July 23, 2010 2:26 PM in reply to kash79
On this we absolutely agree.
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Shrubbit
July 23, 2010 2:42 PM in reply to kash79
Yes.
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July 23, 2010 3:01 PM in reply to kash79
Indeed, I did as much to get Obama elected as anyone can claim to. My biggest reason was that he promised not to govern like he was having a dorm room argument in 1969.
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rockdart
July 23, 2010 3:07 PM in reply to kash79
No, just the actual active, you know: ACTIVISTS that actually knock on doors, play ATM, get others to knock and play ATM... the ones that started rattling chains in '02 and '03. The ones that built the eGrassroots infrastucture that you're all bonding on.
When did TPM become the honeycomb hideout for the "Leave Britney Alone" crowd?
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kash79
July 23, 2010 3:26 PM in reply to rockdart
All i am saying is if you don't like Obama or the democratic establishment then don't knock doors, don't contribute, don't vote for them. Look elsewhere.
It is really naive to keep investing resources if net roots don't believe in the party or the president. You cannot have it two ways.
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Goober Peas
July 23, 2010 3:36 PM in reply to kash79
You know, I have a sneaking suspicion that that is exactly what’s about to happen. And when Democrats lose spectacularly again the DFH’s will be punched in the face again. When we’ve all gone away your party will be as irrelevant, electorally, as the Tea Party. Perhaps you can form a crazy coalition then like they now have in Great Britain? Good luck with that. . . .
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kash79
July 23, 2010 3:47 PM in reply to Goober Peas
I'm not being sarcastic. It doesn't make sense to beat up Reid all year, express disappointment and then make a ad thanking him for financial reform.
Either vote for convictions or convenience. But voting for Democrats means you will have to compromise your convictions- It is a given. This assumption that democrats represent the progressive "base" is really really naive. There is no party in the political mainstream that strongly represents progressive policies. Sure there is a occasional congressman or a senator, but the primary architecture of the U.S. political system is "center-right" and "right."
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acamus
July 23, 2010 4:10 PM in reply to kash79
This is so true - and any president attempting to push a truly progressive agenda through the hallways of this architecture would confront utter failure in the short term. Maybe in the long run, the president might be able to transform the collective political views of a large portion of the country to such an extent it would have a transformative effect on this architecture. But I doubt it.
If a president is going to have some successes with his or her agenda, then he or she is going to have to compromise to get anything accomplished.
Which is not say that Obama himself is some hardcore progressive frustrated by this architecture. He is pretty darn moderate, and even conservative at times, when it comes to foreign policy and the economy. Of course he never promised a progressive revolution with his administration, even though some thought this is what he meant by change.
And to the extent that policies and actions of the administration fall short of the progressive agenda, then progressive can outline the extent to which it did. And just as importantly why it is in the best interest of America to go down that path.
Because it is only when the electorate nationally alters itself to such an extent that it transforms that architecture can we hope of (1) getting a truly progressive presidential candidate elected and (2) having a progressive president usher through a progressive agenda successfully.
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acamus
July 23, 2010 4:24 PM in reply to acamus
And I would add in the context of what Van Jones is talking about is what some hate to hear and that is incrementalism. If we can successfully push through Obama's agenda, and things get better, then it will begin to shift the national discourse on how to approach the ills of this country. It will make it easier in the long run to push through more progressive-leaning legislation.
Which is not to say that if one disagrees with the war in Afghanistan or offshore drilling, that one shuts up about it.
But what Van Jones is positing I believe is that in the big picture that Obama is turning the ship around. It may not be 180 degrees (and I doubt Obama is aiming for that) but if you do want 180 degree turn-around it is your political best interest to provide support to Obama and his agenda. To do otherwise is to go back to the worse case scenario.
And that is not a "well he isn't as bad as the Republican argument." It is given the architecture, given the national political leanings, that is what is realistic and pragmatic in the here-and-now.
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stillidealistic
July 23, 2010 4:41 PM in reply to acamus
Good job, Ac...I rec both comments, big time!
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hewhohasnoname
July 23, 2010 5:53 PM in reply to acamus
Well said.
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kash79
July 23, 2010 4:26 PM in reply to acamus
Yep. Spot on. Wailing like a new Afghan widow in the Obama hallways is not going to help. In fact, it is extremely childish.
If someone is convinced Obama does not represent their ideals- do not invest resources or vote for him or the democrats. Stand on your principles.
Also, be prepared for a long hard struggle. Because uncompromising convictions often mean you will have to struggle.
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SkepticalCidada
July 23, 2010 5:04 PM in reply to kash79
What a condescending child you are. The choice is not between street smart compromisers and naive idealists. The choice is between Democrats, like Obama, who capitulate without a fight and get nothing in return for it, and those who would actually fight first and compromise on their own terms. If Barack Obama had been president in 1964, civil rights legislation would never have passed. He refuses to use the power of the presidency to fight for anything because (1) he refuses to take any risks and (2) he craves approval from conservatives. The choice is between Obama weakness and LBJ strength.
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kash79
July 23, 2010 5:11 PM in reply to SkepticalCidada
Show me a LBJ who can win. You're still in the 60s. Corporate interests have consumed much of the political power. And Obama of course is part of it.
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SkepticalCidada
July 23, 2010 5:18 PM in reply to kash79
Obama won as a progressive and then governed as a Clinton.
Capitulation to corporate interests is hardly the way to challenge them. We tried capitulation in the '90s, and it was a dead end.
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kash79
July 23, 2010 5:21 PM in reply to SkepticalCidada
Obama ran a mirror.
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kash79
July 23, 2010 5:22 PM in reply to kash79
*ran as a mirror.
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SkepticalCidada
July 23, 2010 5:27 PM in reply to kash79
No, he ran as a progressive. His policy positions were clearly to the left of Kerry, Gore, and Clinton.
As I said and you ignored, capitulation to corporate interests is hardly the way to challenge them. We tried capitulation in the '90s, and it was a dead end.
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kash79
July 23, 2010 5:31 PM in reply to SkepticalCidada
I don't think its a capitulation, Obama is in fact a corporate capitalist.
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stillidealistic
July 23, 2010 6:29 PM in reply to SkepticalCidada
He ran as a left-leaning pragmatist, which is why so many of you are disappointed in him. You took "change" and turned it into your idea of what that meant to you, rather than pay attention to what he was really saying.
If he had run as a progressive, he would never have won. The moderate republicans/independents would not have voted for him.
And let's say by some wild ass stretch of the imagination that a progressive COULD be elected... How the hell would he/she EVER govern this screwed up country with ZERO support (or close to it) in the congress?
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SkepticalCidada
July 25, 2010 12:58 AM in reply to stillidealistic
You seem to be suffering from the Tea Party disease of equating progressive with socialist.
He couldn't effectively govern RIGHT-of-center, given the appalling incompetence of his administration.
Cowering in the White House in fear of risk and capitulating without a fight and without getting anything in return is not pragmatism. It is uselessness.
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chameleon
July 23, 2010 5:28 PM in reply to kash79
I am in total agreement with that post.
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FreeRider
July 23, 2010 3:55 PM in reply to Goober Peas
Good! If that's what it takes to make you STFU with your "we own this president and he'd better do what we say" BS!
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It's Pat
July 23, 2010 4:02 PM in reply to Goober Peas
For all the bullshit the tea people spew, at least they have the sense to fight for what they or their corporate handlers)believe in. Though they were down and out, they came out and rally for their cause. I don't see liberals/progressives doing that; instead they kick their feet, rant, rag on the President and threaten to stay home in Nov. Like what does that accomplish?
If you are mad at President Obama, fine, don't vote for him this November. If you are a Democrat and want to see more Democrats elected, find a representative in your city and state, study him/her, find out their positions and get out and volunteer, knock on doors and help them get elected or keep their seat.
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rockdart
July 23, 2010 4:08 PM in reply to kash79
oh, I'll vote for a Democrat, but that's just the lesser of two evils in the cases like Betsy Markley who votes against extending UI. But I'm not sending her any money.
I'm not going to vote for Bennet in the primary because of his votes in the senate, but I'm not sending any money to Romanoff either.
I always knew that Obama wasn't a progressive and that he was probably just one insult less away from being DLC, but because he wasn't, I voted for him over Hillary. Now the DLC is back in influence again, namely through Rhambo. I don't vote Republican and I don't vote Republican Lite.
Now, y'all can fall all over each other defending this adminstration's milquetoast governance, which is akin to using a toothbrush to clean up the mess, rather than the famous mop, but I'm not going to.
We need to be pushing the Overton Window, rather than just delaying the full on slide to the right that you all are doing by hurrah'ing and crying "Britney" into the camera lens. Having you folks around is like trying to run a marathon with an anchor strapped to your waist.
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kash79
July 23, 2010 4:13 PM in reply to rockdart
You made too many assumptions. So let me make one assumption. Either you're an idiot or a hypocrite. If you don't like a democrat, then don't vote for a democrat.
Vote on your principle.
If you compromise your vote, then learn to accept compromise in policy. Simple.
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rockdart
July 23, 2010 4:28 PM in reply to kash79
really? Your argument is idiotic. I can vote for a Democrat I don't like just as much as I can not vote for a Republican I can't stand. Ever heard of "hold your nose and vote"? I'm a loyal Democrat, but there's levels to my enthusiasm, just as there are to MANY others like me.
There's a psychological disorder that describes people who don't do nuance: Conservatives. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/aug/13/usa.redbox
Are you sure you're at the 'right' place?
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kash79
July 23, 2010 4:34 PM in reply to rockdart
When you hold your nose and vote then you will have to hold your nose on policy as well. That's what happens in adult life.
Anyway, the so called "nuance" must equally be applied to understand how a bill becomes a law in this country.
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rockdart
July 23, 2010 4:40 PM in reply to kash79
Nah, there can be an interim time between "More" and "Better". We got "More" and as it turns out, all we did was slow the freefall. It's time for "Better" so we can stop it. Pom Poms only lubricate the fall. But keep waving!!!
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kash79
July 23, 2010 4:43 PM in reply to rockdart
Yep. Yep if you think Obama was "interim" and want "better" than don't vote again for Obama. Simple.
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rockdart
July 23, 2010 4:58 PM in reply to kash79
again, you have a Nuance FAIL. Let's try: Level of Enthusiasm. Does that help? And... because I actually DO vote - in all of them, not just every 2 or 4 years - I'm perfectly able to critisize those I voted for. I hired 'em. As a manager, I have to be sure my people are performing to a level needed or they get fired, right? For surely, if the people who are hired to do a job do not do it correctly, then the strategic goals fail, correct? And then need to be replaced, right?
Your argument is a simpleton view, narrow and blindered. It really is.
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kash79
July 23, 2010 5:05 PM in reply to rockdart
Well I am happy for you- you have enough faith in the system to see yourself as manager. I haven't voted nearly as often as you do, but on most times it seems like a scam. Boil it down to two not very different choices and force to pick one.
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SkepticalCidada
July 23, 2010 5:08 PM in reply to kash79
For someone so politically immature, you certainly are arrogant and condescending.
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kash79
July 23, 2010 5:16 PM in reply to SkepticalCidada
Wow. You figured me out in 15 lines. You must be special.
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SkepticalCidada
July 23, 2010 5:21 PM in reply to kash79
No, your posts are just that obnoxious.
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kash79
July 23, 2010 5:24 PM in reply to SkepticalCidada
You are the one calling me names and I'm obnoxious..Funny how it works.
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SkepticalCidada
July 23, 2010 5:31 PM in reply to kash79
Those weren't names; they were adjectives characterizing your comments: immature, arrogant, condescending, and obnoxious.
It's called substantive criticism.
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kash79
July 23, 2010 5:33 PM in reply to SkepticalCidada
Ha! You do have high regard for opinion. Makes it easy to live.
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Apphouse50
July 23, 2010 4:29 PM in reply to kash79
Oooh, love it or leave it. I feel like a teen in the 60's again.
Don't try to improve it, don't note when it's falling short. Worship it only.
Excellent!
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kash79
July 23, 2010 4:38 PM in reply to Apphouse50
Reelecting the same people again by holding your nose not improving it. Why not vote for a green party or an Independent candidate if you don't like the democrat on the ballot? Why not just sit out if you don't like the democrat on the ballot?
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Apphouse50
July 23, 2010 5:01 PM in reply to kash79
At this point there's no question in my mind that I'd vote for Obama, although I always reserve the right to go Green or Socialist or anything else that speaks to the values I think are sorely needed should the Dems not put up a decent candidate. But it would take a lot, not just occasional disagreements with Obama, to make me vote for anyone else. I don't regret voting for him and if I could dial up the Wayback Machine I'd gladly do it again.
That doesn't mean I have to love everything he's done or just say "Oh, well" to things he hasn't.
I'm still hearing "love it or leave it," which, coming from the sixties, I find simultaneously amusing and appalling.
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kash79
July 23, 2010 5:07 PM in reply to Apphouse50
I have no intention to use my voting decision as a blackmail card on the blogs- but I am absolutely sure I will vote my conviction. I don't care about the outcome.
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stillidealistic
July 23, 2010 5:23 PM in reply to kash79
Seriously...you'll vote your conviction and you don't care about the outcome? You really don't care? Then why bother?
I've gotta say, I envy y'all who are able to do that. For me, my convictions aren't worth shit if they allow the republicans back in the White House, after what they did such a short time ago.
We all have to do what we have to do to be able to look at ourselves in the mirror.
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kash79
July 23, 2010 5:28 PM in reply to stillidealistic
All I can say is I understand your thinking. May be I have grown too cynical, and no longer find this constrained choices very appealing. There has to be a fundamental change in the system, otherwise we are in the process of becoming a complete corporate state no matter who gets elected.
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stillidealistic
July 23, 2010 6:15 PM in reply to kash79
We do that by campaign finance reform and getting rid of the gerrymandered districts so that the voters can make a difference. Right now, the party decides who gets to run, and that is based on their party creds, unless they have enough money to buy the election.
Here in California, there are districts where the opposite party might as well not even put up a candidate. The gridlock cannot be overcome and California is going down the tubes.
History has taught me that voting 3rd party is a waste of a vote. In essence, it is the same as a vote FOR the opposing party. When a dem votes green, he is, in essence, voting republican. May feel good, but the result is the repubs win. And as much as the far left pushes the meme that Obama is repub lite, he is not.
I do not have to hold my nose to vote for Obama again, but I may have to in 2016, depending on who the dem candidate is. It will be a cold day in hell, or at least until the horror of the bush years has been lost in my dementia-filled head before I vote for another republican, or enable one to be elected by throwing my vote away on a 3rd party.
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 3:27 PM in reply to rockdart
seriously. ever since Obama got elected the comments have been hemorrhaging substance. the people who actually bother to support their arguments with information apparently went to firedoglake and theyoungturks
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rider
July 23, 2010 4:29 PM in reply to dotkommissar
Why is Obama failing? Back in 80,s Reagan,Bush and the intelligence agencies set out to make a system of control through the use of blackmail and they suceeded. Below is is just one of the ways they gained alot of control over powerful people. Until these kind of BS games are brought to light and the military industrial complex is exposed as doing the bidding for the CIA and Corporate America, things will continue to stay the same no matter who is President,or member of congress.---- http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20Government/boys_town_abuse.htm
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 4:37 PM in reply to rider
Easy solution - publicly funded campaigns and no revolving-doors for policy makers or their families.
The military industrial complex needs campaign finance to convert capital into political power.
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FreeRider
July 23, 2010 3:54 PM in reply to rockdart
NEWSFLASH: Firebaggers are not the only people who donated and knocked on doors and voted for this president! Sheez!
Millions of people did that, idiot, including liberals, moderates, DLC'ers, Independents and some republicans!
You are no more responsible for Obama being the White House than I am.
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L.Kendra
July 23, 2010 4:51 PM in reply to FreeRider
Well Said so true , i'm sick of firebaggers!!!There are alot conservatives that voted for Obama.
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Apphouse50
July 23, 2010 4:27 PM in reply to rockdart
+1
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Shrubbit
July 23, 2010 2:39 PM
VAN JONES WAS RIGHT! (about Republicans being assholes)
And he's right about this.
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happycozy
July 23, 2010 2:41 PM
Kudos to Jones. It's not what progressives want to hear, but it's what they need to hear.
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Rotwang
July 23, 2010 2:46 PM
Didn't the officers of the Titanic lock some of the lower-paying passengers in so the upper crust could get first dibs at the lifeboats? It was in the movie so it must be true.
In general, if the Captain starts throwing passengers into the water we are justified in growing perturbed. Van got his seat in the lifeboat. Lots of others have not.
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kash79
July 23, 2010 2:54 PM in reply to Rotwang
I like your analogy. Very much.
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July 23, 2010 2:55 PM in reply to Rotwang
You're a douche bag and you should turn in your liberal card. We don't want you
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Rotwang
July 23, 2010 3:01 PM in reply to Dave
I am not a liberal, kind sir, so I have no card to turn in. Though congratulations on your heretofore unacclaimed ascension to the Throne of Liberalism.
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Libertine
July 23, 2010 3:13 PM in reply to Dave
You have no right to demand it you are not one of us liberals. You are nothing more than a compromising, capitulating, excuse making, neoliberal economics loving centrist. If you are carrying a liberal card you need to turn it in at your earliest opportunity sir. Real liberals don't like imposters in our ranks...
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July 23, 2010 4:01 PM in reply to Libertine
There you go again;
"You are nothing more than a compromising, capitulating, excuse making, neoliberal economics loving centrist."
bigot
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
That's the only right word for what you are expressing here.
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Libertine
July 23, 2010 4:16 PM in reply to John
You can turn your card in at any point too...another poser found. We make what we feel are warranted criticisms of the administration to which we get personally attacked, we return fire and we are the ones accused of having bigoted ideologies? You're an idiot...
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July 23, 2010 6:34 PM in reply to Libertine
Card? lol, I didn't claim to be anything other than a guy who supported the president and thinks for himself. All I have criticized is your lack of tolerance for opinions other than your own.
Now I think think your opinions about the president are wrong and your expression thereof is counter productive. That's what you call and opinion. I haven't told you to "shutup" either though in my view that would be your wisest course of action. You certainly are welcome to ignore my advice. This is disagreement. It's not the same thing as bigotry.
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Libertine
July 23, 2010 7:33 PM in reply to John
I would have been fine if you had stopped with the statement that you thought my opinions are wrong. Who the hell are you to tell me I shouldn't voice them? That is what I just went through from 2000-2008 I didn't expect the same thing would happening when the D's got in power. But it appears you guys learned the art of demogoguery well from Bush/Cheney/Rove.
I happen to think that this train is about to come off the tracks due to conductor error. Good luck guys, I'm outta here...hope you have a soft landing, though the prospects for that don't look too good.
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July 23, 2010 2:58 PM in reply to Rotwang
Keep it up! President Sarah Palin I'm sure will pass all the liberal agenda you want. God you and the Far Far left are fucking idiots and your quest for this mythical Unicorn is a Fantasy. Van Jones just spoke some hard truth. Lets band together and take the right wing down. Quit the god damn infighting
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Rotwang
July 23, 2010 3:05 PM in reply to Dave
Though I am not a liberal, the thankless task of teaching you how to be one falls to me.
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Dorn76
July 23, 2010 3:34 PM in reply to Dave
So, umm, straigthen up, and take the shit being fed you...Sounds like you're asking them to be Republicans, because that doesn't describe any liberals I know.
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Goober Peas
July 23, 2010 3:39 PM in reply to Dave
Just like Obama and the historical majority Democratic congress has not passed close to a scintilla of the progressive legislation we want? Wow. We are in a lose/lose situation, no matter what! That fires up one’s belly for political involvement, does it not?
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SkepticalCidada
July 23, 2010 5:11 PM in reply to Dave
Fuck you!
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fbacon2
July 23, 2010 3:11 PM in reply to Rotwang
More apt analogy would be that Obama volunteered to jump into a crashing plane in midair and pull it up at the last minute. Sort of like James Bond in Goldeneye.
... Then get heckled in the blogs for not doing a flip.
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jhill3rd
July 23, 2010 3:33 PM in reply to fbacon2
Amen!
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gpleigh
July 23, 2010 2:59 PM
THANK YOU, Van Jones for speaking out about your own experience rather than having others own it for you. And thank you for reminding everyone that we have only just begun this fight and it would be good if we could stop trying to take down the President every single day.
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MikeJ
July 23, 2010 3:01 PM
Netroots sounds like another TEA PARTY movement. This is very disappointing.
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FreeRider
July 23, 2010 3:58 PM in reply to MikeJ
This is news to you? They are the mirror image of the teabaggers. That's why they're called firebaggers.
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rockdart
July 23, 2010 4:20 PM in reply to FreeRider
you are out of your freaking mind. You're posting this BS on a site that was created by folks of the netroots mindset. you can try to project all you want and stir the crap (though most likely just lick it off your own behind), but you couldn't be further from the truth.
The truth is, if it wasn't for the REAL ACTIVITSTS in this part - the netroots folks - none of this would be possible. It wasn't just in '08 that things started coming around - we've been laying the ground work since before "Deaniac" was in the lexicon.
BTW - do you even know the number of Netroots Nation conferences there have been, including the original that was renamed? I doubt it. It seems you are talking out your behind, but that's just where your mouth is most of the time.
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FreeRider
July 23, 2010 4:51 PM in reply to rockdart
The nutroots are whining wackadoos and just as destructive to Democrats as the teabaggers are to Republicans.
Thank God! The grown-ups in the WH and the DNC don't let you idiots hijack the party!
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whitesauce
July 23, 2010 5:10 PM in reply to FreeRider
The DNC was previously run for the last two successful election cycles by Howard Dean whose approach was much more in line with the NetRoots than the current administration. Now that the Democrats are finally back in control, the NetRoots are "destructive?" You're talking about the people who did all the leg work that led to wins in '06 and '08.
I hope the "grown ups" know what they're doing.
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rockdart
July 23, 2010 5:10 PM in reply to FreeRider
you wouldn't understand progressive if it was a fire hydrant with your name on it. Again, the netroots have been around since before "Deaniac" came into the lexicon. It was folks like you that wanted Kerry over Dean. It was folks like you that listened to the DLC'ers when it came time for election strategy and bemoaned the 50 state strategy. It was folks like you that supported your congress critter to vote for the Iraq War Resolution instead of taking a stand.
On the other hand, it was the net roots folks that called out the BS on Plame, the push for war, the BS on yellowcake - it's the net roots who have been vindicated in their efforts, DESPITE the hand-wringing of your ilk. You wanna talk STFU? You need to STFU and listen - so you can LEARN.
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FreeRider
July 23, 2010 5:46 PM in reply to rockdart
You're funny! The nutroots couldn't help Dean win one primary but they are responsible for uncovering the yellow cake fraud and Plamegate?
The nutroots couldn't get Ned Lamont into the Senate but they are responsible for the Democrats' control of congress?
The nutroots backed Breck Boy Edwards who flamed out like the loser he is but they made Obama?
Like I said, you're funny.
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rockdart
July 23, 2010 6:06 PM in reply to FreeRider
And you're a clueless dillusional ass kisser delux. Probably a global warming denier too.
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vasu
July 23, 2010 3:02 PM
I completely agree with what Van Jones said. If the progressives and Dems would have been out there banging the drum and screaming as loudly as the Repukes then there is a good chance that we wouldn't be in this position.
But instead, they got him elected and went back to sipping coffee and reading books. While the cheap beer swillers worked over time to make whites think the blacks are coming to take them away.
How many people got a text message after obama was elected telling you to report to the cotton fields? I did from all my republican friends, did the Dems/Progressives to anything to try and stop this is make better spin... Nope, they shrugged it off with a laugh.
They felt, after getting him elected their job was done. Well guess what. Wrong answer. Now you need to setup up and prove conventional wisdom wrong and get Obama seats in the midterm election no loose some.
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jhill3rd
July 23, 2010 5:02 PM in reply to vasu
Great comment!! This is one of the best comments I have read in weeks.
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whitesauce
July 23, 2010 5:02 PM in reply to vasu
Come on. It's not the Progressives who have been "sipping coffee and reading books." Progressives have been the one trying to hold President Obama accountable. The work that needs to be done doesn't just happen during election cycles.
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vasu
July 23, 2010 5:23 PM in reply to whitesauce
Well really, he passed 3 major legislative hurdles, but all he gets is, "That wasn't good enough" and "we want more". The real problem is he can only do so much at this point because the Repukes hold everything, EVERYTHING to a 60 vote threashold. We are no longer a country rule by the majority, we are a country being ruled by the minority through parlimentry trickery.
What needs to happen is the filibuster rule either needs to go completely or be drastically changed. And if this was the case you might see more the progressive items make their way through.
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rockdart
July 23, 2010 5:31 PM in reply to vasu
And how do you propose to do this? By electing more Blue Dogs? Asshats like Lieberman?
Of course not - but if we don't start making true stands and passing legislation with teeth that makes a difference in people's lives - for the better, no matter how much whelping a TB'er bitch, moans and complains (erroneously, of course) - then cynicism will crop up and we lose. It's like Rachel's anology of the Gin and Tonic - without the Gin.
How long before Obama starts the Triangulation Clinton did that put us in the electoral weeds for 6-8 years?
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whitesauce
July 23, 2010 5:44 PM in reply to vasu
The Democrats had the filibuster and Bush still did what he wanted.
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FreeRider
July 23, 2010 5:51 PM in reply to whitesauce
That's a lie. Bush wanted permanent tax cuts and to privatize social security and didn't get either one.
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chameleon
July 23, 2010 6:27 PM in reply to vasu
Great post!!! Thanks
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fbacon2
July 23, 2010 3:03 PM
Hey, kids! Van Jones just became the most reasonable, progressive-minded, and grounded figure on the Internets. Therefore, Van Jones must have been a crypto-sellout all along, or a lot of people on the left have wasted two years of oxygen.
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Dorn76
July 23, 2010 3:43 PM in reply to fbacon2
The "Progressive" tent gets smaller by the minute.
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commie atheist
July 23, 2010 3:05 PM
I agree with everything Jones says; at the same time,it's not "Obama Bashing" to try to push this administration to the left. It's what conservatives do to every Republican president, and it should be done from the left to every Democratic president.
All of the bullshit comments I see here ("You're an Obamabot!" "Well, you're just a whining asshole who doesn't appreciate all the wonderful things Obama has done!) totally ignore this: yes, things are better than they were under Bush. But they could be even better. And the kneejerk Sherrod firing, on such flimsy evidence, is irrefutable proof that the White House reacts more quickly and more strongly to criticism from the right than it does to criticism from the left.
How to change that equation? Keep pushing, and push harder.
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whitesauce
July 23, 2010 4:25 PM in reply to commie atheist
Agreed. Thank you.
It seems that there is so much fear about what ANY criticism will do to President Obama that there's this desire to silence those who disagree. I don't think the problem is with the Progressive movement. If the administration actually responded positively to liberal criticism instead of reacting fearfully to conservative criticism, none of us would be having these "discussions."
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igotthis
July 23, 2010 4:46 PM in reply to commie atheist
Listen, everyone, Shirley Sherrod was a fire breathing supporter of President Obama when she gave that insightful but wrongly maligned speech to the NAACP, and she is still a fire breathing supporter of President Obama today even after she was horribly treated by the U.S. Dept. of Agriculture. We should all follow Mrs. Sherrod's great example and stop your fiery complaining about the president and his policies and start aiming your fire on the real enemies of progressive policies, Conservative Republicans!
Yes, offer constructive criticism of the president and his policies (I do), but stop foolishly treating him like an enemy of the state. As Van Jones rightly argues, he is not the enemy, people! Conservative Republicans are the enemy! In 18 months, President Obama has advanced more progressive policies than any president since FDR despite having to fight the most absurd and hateful claims, lies, obstructions and myths by an insane right-wing political and media machine with very little help from progressives.
Most of you have just stood by and watched the carnage without lifting a finger to support the president. In fact, you’ve done worst. You have blindly ignored the impressive accomplishments he has achieved despite vehement Conservative Republican opposition. Ridiculously, you have lambasted him for the fact that his policies, though definitely progressive, are not as progressive as you wanted. So you have treated him as a failure just like your real enemies have wanted you to. Are you really that gullible?
Wake-up, and stop your foolish ways! Critique the president, but stop treating him like your enemy. If you don't, your real enemies will take control of the federal government again, and it will be singularly your fault, not his. Remember, folks, his mantra during the election was “Yes We Can,” not “Yes I Can!”
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commie atheist
July 23, 2010 5:46 PM in reply to igotthis
You don't know me, or anything about me. Don't pretend to know what I have or haven't done, or lecture me on what I need to do.
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boo_lala
July 23, 2010 5:50 PM in reply to commie atheist
The first and only Republican rebellion to the right of Bush was when he proposed his immigration reform plan. Even then the party in general probably would have been silent about it if Tancredo and his ilk hadn't blown their tops, and, frankly, what Bush was proposing was beyond my leftwing fantasies for an immigration reform plan that could actually pass, given how xenophobic this country is.
My problem with the leftwing today is they don't know how to push for their agenda without damaging the only president and party they have. They don't know how to support the president and promote their ideas at the same time and everything they do that they think is "pushing him to the left" is in fact just weakening him and making him less able to propose bold changes in the future. They also hold Obama responsible for simple facts that they don't like: that the Democrat majority in congress includes a number of purple democrats who are not going to vote for anything that would upset their constituents. And in many of those states, the only other option is a true-red Republican.
I think the left did more to damage the HCR effort than the tea partiers or GOP did by howling and claiming “sellout” at every step of the process, responding like it was the end of the world, to what, at that point, was essentially gossip about what would go into the final bill. And, in the end, they weakened the HCR brand so much, they weakened Obama’s brand so much, they attacked the red state Dems so much, that they got the watered down bill that they feared all along and they handed the Republicans an issue that brought them back from the abyss.
And they trash Obama's leadership for such trivial things, as well. Ms. Sherrod is a lovely woman, I'm sure, and didn't deserve to be fired, but her reputation has been recovered and she's been offered a new job, and to spend all the time backbiting and keeping this story in the news, for one person, is so unworthy of all this energy. Why not say, we support Ms. Sherrod and we support the administration's quick response to the facts as they were presented by the media and we condemn the people who set her and the administration up with lies?
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FreeRider
July 23, 2010 5:54 PM in reply to boo_lala
"My problem with the leftwing today is they don't know how to push for their agenda without damaging the only president and party they have."
A-FUCKING-MEN!
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Geoff Johnson
July 23, 2010 6:55 PM in reply to boo_lala
Actually some on the right wing did criticize Bush before immigration reform (an early example was his "compromise" on stem cell research, the "Freeper" pro-life types were absolutely livid about that and said so), though it's unlikely you would have been as tuned into that kind of stuff unless you were reading right wing web sites. To the extent that criticism was muted, 9/11 is a huge part of the explanation. You're almost certainly correct though that, in general, the right wing is far more loathe to criticize a president they helped elect and far more inclined to what I would describe as sycophancy.
What you're wrong about, in my view, is thinking that that's a model progressives should follow. Politicians (all of them) should be pressured when one disagrees with them and complimented and rewarded with support when they do well.
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commie atheist
July 23, 2010 7:44 PM in reply to Geoff Johnson
Exactly. Bush did everything he could to play to his base. He may not have given them everything they wanted - an overturn of Roe v. Wade, a Federal ban on gay marriage, a total stem-cell ban - but he came damn close.
Two of the most conservative Supreme Court Justices ever nominated now sit on the bench. The Justice Department was gutted of all its competent employees, who were all replaced by incompetent ideologues. He put young idiots in charge of the Iraq reconstruction effort - merely because they showed a loyalty to him. The list of things that Bush did to let his base know he was with them is long.
And you are exactly right - criticism of a President should never be considered "bashing," unless it is actually is. The equivalencies that commenters here have made made Fox News attacks on Obama and legitimate criticism from the left are unbelievable. It shouldn't "weaken" a President to hear that people are not totally satisfied with the job he's doing. This is not a fucking aristocracy, where we just let the people in charge do what they feel is best, and hope that they make the right decisions, simply because they belong to the same party as we do.
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bk
July 26, 2010 2:32 AM in reply to boo_lala
I totally agree with you.
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 3:13 PM
It's this simple:
I'll support Obama when he explains why he isn't fighting for the things he said he'd fight for.
Until he explains it, I have no choice but to consider the possibility that he's a lying politician. He wouldn't be the first.
I don't mind that he tries and fails. But I need to know he's trying.
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dougom
July 23, 2010 3:15 PM
Give me a break. Closing Gitmo; stopping DADT; ceasing warrentless wiretapping (and the other abrogations of Civil Rights by the Bush Administration); these are things that Obama could have done without congress. Why are American citizens being targeted for assassination and denied due process? Why have we increased our land war in a land-locked country in Asia (when "the enemy" isn't there, but in Pakistan)? Why are we engaged in nation building? Why did Obama want to expand offshore oil drilling? Why did Obama nominate a complete cypher for the Supreme Court? Why did Obama give away "medicare for all" or even single payer without haggling?
No one forced him to do (or fail to do) those things, Van. When Obama does something genuinely progressive, then I'll consider stopping my complaints. Until then, Van ol' buddy, I'm going to continue to hold his feet to the fire.
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Dorn76
July 23, 2010 3:38 PM in reply to dougom
Amazing you could describe a person with a lifetime's worth of experience as a "complete cypher", but I wouldn't want to spoil the roll you're on.
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Dorn76
July 23, 2010 3:40 PM in reply to Dorn76
And will you be the arbiter of what is "genuinely Progressive"? And how is that view from up there?
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SkepticalCidada
July 23, 2010 4:00 PM in reply to Dorn76
I'm a progressive, and, yes, indeed, I WILL BE THE JUDGE OF WHAT I THINK A GENUINELY PROGRESSIVE POLICY IS, thank you very much.
I haven't seen one yet that Obama hasn't sold out--usually before any conservative protest and without getting anything in return.
The only thing this Administration is capable of doing is slapping misleading names on neutered, sell-out legislation, like health care "reform," financial "regulation," and economic "stimulus." Sorry if I'm not stupid enough to be fooled by the reform label slapped on bad legislation.
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 3:45 PM in reply to Dorn76
you do realize that "a lifetime of experience" is not a qualification, right? or do you know so little about the judicial branch that you actually believe a person's ideology, philosophy, and yes, even politics, make all the difference, especially on the Supreme Court?
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 3:47 PM in reply to dotkommissar
*don't make all the difference
having a lifetime of experience digging ditches is not the same as a lifetime of experience being a teacher.
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Dorn76
July 23, 2010 3:56 PM in reply to dotkommissar
Whatever you believe must be the truth. But tell me how good a judge Hugio Black and Lewis Powell were before they joined the SCOTUS.
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Dorn76
July 23, 2010 3:57 PM in reply to Dorn76
You just seem so certain about everything. It must be nice.
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dougom
July 23, 2010 4:01 PM in reply to Dorn76
No; it's awful. But some of us bear such a burden as well as we can.
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 4:13 PM in reply to Dorn76
No one can be absolutely certain about anything. Sadly, we still have to make life or death decisions. That's where science comes in. That's how we can figure out what the best choice might be. See, there actually is a right answer when someone says, what's more likely to stop our economy from going into a deflation spiral and culminating in a hyper-inflated dollar - massive tax cuts for the rich, or tax increases on the rich followed by a giant stimulus. There's evidence for it. That's how doctors know what to put in your medicine when you're sick. They bothered to figure out the right answers to the most important questions.
Or you can follow your gut like Bush.
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dougom
July 23, 2010 4:00 PM in reply to Dorn76
Well, that's good; I hate it when someone spoils my rolls.
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 3:16 PM
Please explain:
Why are people still being discharged from the military for being gay.
That alone is enough to make you delusional not to want a convincing explanation for why we continue to undermine our own national security and Constitution.
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ahumbleopinion
July 23, 2010 3:41 PM in reply to dotkommissar
Please explain:
How the situation would improve if Republicans were in charge?
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pugmaker
July 23, 2010 3:44 PM in reply to ahumbleopinion
The republicans would not being making slaves out of the nation, or TAXING everything. Look at a tax on GOLD sales included in the HCR bill.
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 4:25 PM in reply to pugmaker
If you're buying gold right now, you're a moron. go learn the difference between thinking and believing.
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expat46
July 23, 2010 4:43 PM in reply to pugmaker
I didn't know that the HCR bill applied a tax on gold? What page of the bill is that on?
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VictorLaszlo
July 23, 2010 3:58 PM in reply to ahumbleopinion
So... you're saying that those of us on the left should *never* criticize Dems, because Republicans are worse?
Criticizing doesn't mean 'supporting the other side.'
These comments that amount to "If you're not 'clapping louder' for Obama then you're probably going to vote Gingrich/Palin..." are way past tiresome.
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 4:19 PM in reply to ahumbleopinion
The situation would improve in that our politicians wouldn't betray the things they said that got them elected.
I agree that the Republicans would be worse, but you're devoid of all self respect if you accept they way Obama has turned his back on the zealous pursuit of half his campaign promises, without bothering to address why.
I voted for Obama because he said that he pretended to be a leader, not a leaf in the wind of ginned up public outrage.
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hewhohasnoname
July 23, 2010 6:54 PM in reply to dotkommissar
"The situation would improve in that our politicians wouldn't betray the things they said that got them elected."
You do realize that, after being elected, politicians have to contend with the realities of governance, right?
Campaigning is the easy part... It's essentially one man or woman saying what he or she would do if elected. But, because we live a wonderful republican democracy and not an autocracy, every elected politician has to figure out how to navigate within the framework of our established system of governance to make real the promises made on the campaign trail.
Sometimes it's easy. Sometimes it's not. When it's not, politicians are faced with the choice of abandoning their campaign promises, because they cannot get others within the system to support their aims. Or, compromising the promise enough to get enough people to back the aim. The notion that the politician only needs to "fight harder" is wonderfully romantic, but it's not necessarily realistic. Every elected official has to contend with constituents, lobbyists, personal beliefs, etc. So, just because someone REALLY wants it, doesn't mean it's going to happen. Indeed, just as sure as someone achingly wants it, their efforts are bound to contend with someone who doesn't. (If they have sufficient power, which the people opposing the public option did and the people opposing the closing of Guantanamo have now, it doesn't happen.)
Ultimately, this all boils down to a choice of absolutist progressivism versus incremental progressivism (or sometimes, maintenance of the status quo).
On some issues, Obama has responded with absolutist progressivism: fair pay act, hate crimes protections for gays, revamping student loans, etc. On others there's been incremental progressivism: healthcare, financial reform, recovery act, ending war in Iraq, DADT repeal, etc. And on yet other issues, there has been essentially a maintenance of the status quo: Guantanamo, immigration, etc.
Unfortunately, it seems that most of the progress of the Obama administration and Dems in Congress has been disregarded or viewed as inconsequential because it's not absolutist. It seems that the notion of incremental progressivism has become fallaciously branded as "inconsequential change," or worse "no difference" from the status quo. For instance, by most accounts, the healthcare bill contains anywhere from about 80-90% of what many progressives have lobbied for. But, because it doesn't contain a public option, or because it's not a single-payer system, it's deemed a "failure." The 80% change (or more) from the status quo is disregarded.
Obama kept his promise to implement a sweeping new, overwhelmingly progressive change in healthcare, but he's attacked, because he had to work within the system to accomplish that goal and the outcome is less than perfect (i.e., what some progressives would ideally like to have).
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 11:12 PM in reply to hewhohasnoname
You're arguing with a straw man. I've posted about 5 comments already in this article saying that OF COURSE Obama the candidate gives you his ideological and policy positions, and Obama the president has to deal with powerful opposition. I am 100% with Obama running into obstacles that he just plain can't overcome.
But I want him to acknowledge the reality of it. I want him to say "I promised when I ran that I'd try to do xyz. I did everything I could, but right now abc is standing in the way because of blahblahblah. There's not much we can do today, but in the next few months we can work to clear this obstacle away by doing these things. Next time, we can do even more and bring the change we really need."
Just fucking speak the truth. The way Obama does it now, he misleads people who aren't following politics so closely into thinking that the mission has been accomplished. This is bullshit. And it shows that he seems to underestimate his supporters, like they would blame him no matter how legitimate the obstacle is.
We can't continue fighting for change if half the democrats think the problems are solved. It's just awful.
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hewhohasnoname
July 24, 2010 2:18 PM in reply to dotkommissar
It's uncommon for anyone to read every post that someone else makes here; I wasn't familiar with what you said in other posts. I was only responding to your post preceding mine.
Additionally, there's no straw man in positing a reason that campaign promises are not always fulfilled, or why they may not be fulfilled in the manner consistent with their form on the campaign trail. My response goes specifically to the notion of politicians "betraying" their promises, and intimates that what is often labeled a "betrayed promise" is actually a promise, altered by political realities, but still consistent with initial objectives, and often quite consistent with campaign-trail ideals. Nevertheless, it at least sounds like we have some common ground on the realities of governance.
By the way, I find it ironic that you call my post a "straw man argument," since the following (i.e., your interaction with another reader) is a classic definition of a straw man:
ahumbleopinion: "Please explain: How the situation would improve if Republicans were in charge?"
your response: "The situation would improve in that our politicians wouldn't betray the things they said that got them elected.
I agree that the Republicans would be worse, but you're devoid of all self respect if you accept they way Obama has turned his back on the zealous pursuit of half his campaign promises, without bothering to address why.
I voted for Obama because he said that he pretended to be a leader, not a leaf in the wind of ginned up public outrage."
You never directly or indirectly addressed "ahumbleopinion's" point about how the "situation would improve" if Republicans were in charge. Instead, you said what the President should do, and then you attacked Obama for "turning his back on the zealous pursuit" of campaign promises and suggested that no one would have any "self-respect" if they "accept" that.
Ahumbleopinion did not say anything about campaign promises, and nothing about how he or she feels about Obama's follow-through on campaign promises.
You erected a straw man and knocked it down.
Also, to address your point about why Obama isn't "zealously pursing" his campaign promise:
1) I don't think that's true across the board. He's been quite zealous in pursuing his promises on healthcare and financial reform, etc. But, we may disagree on what level of zealousness is sufficient. I consider it zealous to pursue these aims in the face of opposition that has threatened innumerably to kill efforts in those areas. Again, you may have a different evaluation of zealousness.
2) Much of politics, specifically communications about where allies or potential allies stand, goes on out of the spotlight... As such, presidents are unlikely to go out and try to drum up public support for initiatives that have little to no chance of passing, or little to no chance of passing at the moment, unless there are corresponding grassroots efforts. Why? Because it can make a president look even more ineffectual to mount a huge campaign, only to fall flat on his face, because no one in Congress will support his effort (think G.W. Bush and Social Security privatization failure and immigration reform failure).
This is why Obama has talked so frequently about change "from the bottom up." If there is sufficient political pressure from the people, the political dynamics can be altered. If there is not sufficient pressure, there is a greater likelihood that the status quo will be maintained.
Arianna Huffington indirectly acknowledged this truth while she was slamming Obama and Congress on abandoning comprehensive climate change (CCC) legislation. She mentioned that LBJ did not have the votes for the Civil Rights Act, but Martin Luther King, Jr. helped create political pressure that helped shift the political winds. By drawing that parallel, she implicitly acknowledged a failure of the grassroots to sufficiently push for CCC legislation. If the grassroots had aggressively pushed for the legislation, perhaps it would have had a better shot. It's easy to bash Obama and Congress, but a significant amount of the blame should be directed at ourselves, if we're honest with ourselves. [Huffington never addressed the failure at the grassroots level; it's always someone else's fault.]
So, what am I saying?
That, ultimately, a president's zeal is a reflection of the public's zeal. If the people are marching/pushing for an issue at the grassroots level, it's much more likely to be done. Furthermore, we should not be relying on the zeal of one person to carry the banner; we should be harnessing the zeal of the people who are passionate about these issues to create political pressure that moves the country in the direction we would have it go.
As to the other part of your post:
"The way Obama does it now, he misleads people who aren't following politics so closely into thinking that the mission has been accomplished."
I just don't understand what you mean, I mean literally -- not trying to be snide or facetious. If you read this thread again, maybe you can elaborate?
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cwnidog
July 23, 2010 9:02 PM in reply to ahumbleopinion
How the situation would improve if Republicans were in charge?
It wouldn't. But then, there's not a Republican in charge, is there? On this particular issue, I think that the Administration really is trying to change things, but when something's just plain wrong, gradualism isn't the proper approach.
Or is your general point that we get to complain when there a Republican in charge, but need to STFU when a Democratic President pursues the same policies?
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Silence
July 23, 2010 3:30 PM
Communists. The camp counselors of hell.
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 3:35 PM in reply to Silence
Because in heaven all the camp counselors are J.P. Morgan?
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kash79
July 23, 2010 3:38 PM in reply to dotkommissar
Ha ha ha ha....now that's VERY funny and clever. And the receptionists for the camp counselors are mama grizzlies. Ha ha.
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Geoff Johnson
July 23, 2010 6:59 PM in reply to Silence
Hell has summer camp? And counselors? That doesn't sound so bad! And I do enjoy reading Marx!
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pugmaker
July 23, 2010 3:42 PM
Van Jones is bitching because we are not the obama butt sucking slaves he wants, he is afraid that he and the other "Progressive" Liberals are and have proven their policies are all WRONG. This country is almost down the tubes under the ODUMBAMA regime. GET RID OF THEM
You wimps wanted change! Well you got it!!!!
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roxsteady
July 23, 2010 3:46 PM in reply to pugmaker
You're clearly sucking something? Maybe poppers? I didn't hear Jones bitching at all. That sounds like what you're doing. Here's what you should do..vote Republican. They've got some great ideas for running this country. Just look at 2001-2008. Good Times!
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 3:51 PM in reply to roxsteady
I don't share your comfort knowing that Obama is not a self-righteous bible-thumping moron.
Our economy is still on the edge of a cliff, and the President's economic team has been captured by gravity.
Accepting the lesser of two evils just isn't good enough if change we can believe in moves much slower than change we can't recover from.
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SkepticalCidada
July 23, 2010 3:54 PM in reply to roxsteady
Oh, spare us talking point #3, roxsteady. If all you can say is that Barack Obama isn't as bad George Bush, you have no argument. As a progressive, I hold Obama to a much higher standard than a Republican. And he is failing...miserably.
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roxsteady
July 23, 2010 4:07 PM in reply to SkepticalCidada
I never said that he's not Bush. Those are more firebagger talking points. Why don't you just vote Republican. You can go over to the wingnut websites and share your critical thoughts with those who are as ignorant and as full of self pity as you are. As for holding Obama to a highter standard, you'd have to look up to even see him. Your higher standards are proof that you're unable to deal with reality. Until they get rid of this bullshit 60 vote BS, they have no choice but, to try and get Republican votes. If the morons in Red States would simply get rid of their representatives and "Stop Voting Against Their Interest" as somone a lot smarter than you once put it, we're stuck with trying to work with these inbreds!
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SkepticalCidada
July 23, 2010 4:15 PM in reply to roxsteady
I stopped reading at "why don't you vote Republican." You obviously have nothing useful to contribute. As long as Obama is one millimeter to the left of Bush, you expect every progressive to bow down and worship Obama, no matter how deeply he keeps burying daggers in our backs. Not going to happen, no matter how obnoxiously you repeat talking point #3.
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 4:23 PM in reply to roxsteady
Here's my standard. Save our country from the oligarchs and evangelicals, because we won't recover from another recession - the banks control half our GDP, and financial regulation didn't do anything to stop them.
It's like we're in a boat that's taking on water, and the Captain has plugged 50% of the leak, and then said "that's the best I can do."
Even if it IS the best he can do, the boat is sinking. Maybe someone else has an idea for how we can plug it up all the way?
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roxsteady
July 23, 2010 3:42 PM
Jones is a class act and he's right. Sure we're all frustrated but, I often go over to the firebagger sight, read their bitching and simply post. "You're right, so let's all vote for Republicans....right? I never stick around for their responses. While we're all disappointed about several things we couldn't get, we need to step back and take a look at what we did get. As Jones said, we're at the "starting line." We must continue to pound the rightwing loons and the GOP into an even smaller party than they are now. The baggers are giving us a nice assist as well. Keep on Pushing!
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SkepticalCidada
July 23, 2010 3:52 PM
Mr. Jones seems to be under the misimpression that we care what he thinks. The so-called Center for American Progress is nothing but a massive shill operation for the Obama Administration. They have no credibility in making excuses for the President. We don't need a lecture from an Obama sycophant about how the Administration's failings are not the Administration's fault.
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FreeRider
July 23, 2010 3:59 PM in reply to SkepticalCidada
He was invited to speak because they cared what he thinks. However, when he didn't think what they thought, suddenly his caring no longer matters.
LMAO!
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 4:06 PM in reply to FreeRider
Do you guys know the difference between inductive and deductive reasoning?
How much I agree with Van Jones = how much his arguments are supported by evidence.
Show me the evidence, and I'll immediately change my point of view. That's how science works. Scientists don't start of with a belief. They arrive at one after doing research.
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SkepticalCidada
July 23, 2010 4:08 PM in reply to FreeRider
I didn't invite anyone to anything, nor would I ever care to hear Obama shilling from anyone at the so-called Center for American Progress.
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rockdart
July 23, 2010 4:36 PM in reply to FreeRider
Where is your supporting evidence for this? There is NONE. Are there those in the audience that don't agree with him? Probably, but none that are trying to revoke his library card. Did you see Alter on Maddow last night? See how that went down? I think it's more akin to that, than the BS (h)airs you're spitting out again.
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jsfox
July 23, 2010 4:05 PM in reply to SkepticalCidada
Now this is funny. What a crock. The net roots worship this Jones. Let us see how long it last now that he has looked in their eyes and basically said GROW THE FUCK UP!
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SkepticalCidada
July 23, 2010 4:09 PM in reply to jsfox
Actually, he looked in their eyes and said, "WORSHIP OBAMA NO MATTER HOW MUCH HE SELLS YOU OUT."
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roxsteady
July 23, 2010 4:32 PM in reply to SkepticalCidada
Did he really say that? I didn't actually watch the clip here on TPM because it keeps freezing but, I'm assuming you're just being snarky since that wasn't included in the text of this article?
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acamus
July 23, 2010 4:37 PM in reply to SkepticalCidada
No he said "We really believed we'd gotten to some sort of finish line. In fact all we'd done was gotten to a starting line." When the president tried to begin the process of closing Gitmo, Congress refused to fund it. And guess what not a single one of them feared election backlash from that vote. The vast majority Americans supported the expansion of offshore drilling before the BP disaster. There are few truly progressive people in Congress and in the infrastructure that runs the political machines. The election finance system is broken and favors the corporations and other wealthy interests. The conservatives still win the message machine where voters respond to snipets like "lower taxes" rather than thoughtful analysis of the issues. We are at the starting line. And if we want to get to the finish line we need to do something other than demand that we magically be already there.
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FreeRider
July 23, 2010 4:55 PM in reply to SkepticalCidada
You should be writing headlines at Fox and HP. They like also write headlines that bear no resemblance to reality.
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SkepticalCidada
July 23, 2010 5:35 PM in reply to FreeRider
You should be reciting talking points for Obama...oh, wait, you already are.
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It's Pat
July 23, 2010 4:12 PM in reply to SkepticalCidada
So take it up with 'Netroots Nation', who invited him to the convention to speak.
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roxsteady
July 23, 2010 3:57 PM
Read this and tell me again, which party is the real disgrace. Then, go ahead and vote for these loons. By the way, you know there's several websites for wingnuts. Some of you appear to be lost. This is not one of them!
The post below is from Jed Lewison of the dailykos, founders of the Netroots. While Breitbart fills the heads of morons with lies, the kos keeps it's eye on the ball. Oh, and some of you couldn't carry Jones' jockstrap and yes, I mean that just the way you're thinking I do tiny!
Politifact debunks GOP's "scare tactic" on taxes
by Jed Lewison
Fri Jul 23, 2010 at 11:00:04 AM PDT
In the world Rep. Mike Pence wants all Americans to fear, President Obama and the Democrats are about to raise everyone's taxes starting on January 1, 2011:
The American people deserve to know that, should Democrats get their way, every income tax bracket will increase on January 1, 2011. Every single one. You know, you don’t raise taxes on every American taxpayer during the worst recession in 25 years. As we’ve done on their failed stimulus policy, as we did on their national energy tax, as we did on their government takeover of health care, House Republicans will stand in the gap to protect taxpayers from the largest tax increase in American history.
Nice soundbite, but it's a complete and total lie. Even Politifact, which generally avoids ascribing motives, said Pence's false claim "verges on a scare tactic":
While the legislative drafting is still in process, the Democratic majority in Congress has made clear that it plans to extend tax cuts for all but the top couple percentage points of the income distribution. So it's highly misleading for him to say that Democrats actually want to see all the bill's cuts expire. Indeed, Pence's comment verges on a scare tactic. While Pence would have been entirely accurate to say, "If the Democrats fail to extend the expiring tax cuts, all tax brackets will increase," he didn't. What he did say merits a ruling of False.
Bottom-line: people making several hundred thousand dollars per year will see a return to Clinton-era level of taxation. For everybody else, there will be no change in their income tax burden. Zilch, nada, zero. When Mike Pence says otherwise, he's lying.
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SkepticalCidada
July 23, 2010 4:03 PM in reply to roxsteady
I stopped reading after your first sentence because I reject your pathetic talking point that we should never criticize Barack Obama as long he's one millimeter to the left of George Bush.
As a progressive, Obama is a failure. I have no intention of voting Republican. But I also have no intention of giving hundreds of more dollars in campaign contributions to this sell-out progressive or doing any of the volunteer work that I did last time. Let the moderate Republicans and Wall Street executives get him re-elected. He only ever caters to their interests anyway.
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 4:01 PM
This fight between democrats and progressives is exactly like this:
D: We need to improve our economy before it crashes again.
P: I totally agree.
D: Ok here's what I did to improve the economy.
P: A great first step, but unless we do this stuff too, it will still crash.
D: YOU UNGRATEFUL IDEOLOGUE! THIS WAS THE BEST I COULD DO!
P: Actually, if we spread the word about how we're still in danger, maybe we can put pressure on Congress...
D: MUTHAFUCKA - YOUR BLOWING OUT YOUR OWN CANDLE!
P: Ok, well we have to try because, you know, economy = still impending doom, so...
D: WHY ARE YOU MAKING ME THE MEAT IN A CRITICISM SANDWHICH???
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VictorLaszlo
July 23, 2010 4:12 PM in reply to dotkommissar
lol Beautiful.
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rockdart
July 23, 2010 4:47 PM in reply to dotkommissar
EXACTLY!!!!
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Philv
July 23, 2010 5:54 PM in reply to dotkommissar
A little off I'd say. Here's my version:
D: We need to improve our economy before it crashes again.
P: I totally agree.
D: Ok here's what I did to improve the economy.
P: You sellout, corporatist bastards! How much money is the banking industry paying you to destroy our country!
D: Well, we did the best we could, see, in this country we have to pass laws through Congress...
P: You fucking wimps! I don't want to hear anymore excuses about needing 60 votes or any such nonsense. If you were real Progressives you would have fought harder and gotten everything we wanted.
D: Well, we did get most of what we wanted, in fact, we got more than most people thought we would, although it would have been even better if Feingold hadn't jumped ship, at least on the filibuster...
P: Don't you understand? The base of the party is going to stay home this November unless you get Elizabeth Warren confirmed as the head of the Consumer Protection Agency!
D: Wait, I thought we were discussing the merits of the financial reform bill. She's certainly a great candidate, and we'll see...
P: Sellout! I knew you were going to sell us down the river!
D: I don't understand why you're being so unreasonable, we're doing the best we can with what we've got, you're really hurting the overall cause by continuing to beat up on us every chance you get. If you're not careful, you'll end up with Republicans everywhere!
So yeah, maybe a little push-back is a good thing, pretty much along the lines that you proposed in your little conversation: nice job on getting massive (Insert X) but now let's get to work on (insert Y) that should've been a part of it. Or, come on, we need to get (insert Z) going, how can we help create a more coordinated campaign to exert pressure on the relevant parties?
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 6:24 PM in reply to Philv
it's sad that you skipped over all of the constructive, substantive solutions progressives suggested as practical alternatives to what the administration was doing. because maybe then you could've either
1) listened to some of them, or
2) explained why they wouldn't actually work, thus furthering the conversation and educating the politically engaged who, understandably, might be naive and interested to learn more about how Washington really works.
Obama should've either 1) been open to progressive ideas or 2) explained frankly the realities standing in the way.
He did neither. He appeared to disregard excellent ideas without showing any sign of having better ideas of his own.
A rational, intelligent person has no choice but to be skeptical.
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Philv
July 23, 2010 6:40 PM in reply to dotkommissar
I'm all ears, let's hear them.
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 11:25 PM in reply to Philv
the healthcare bill has no cost containment. we are at the mercy of the health insurance cartel. Progressives were begging the administration to mobilize all the political pressure Obama could muster against Senators that refused to vote for a bill with a strong public option, and if for some reason that was plain impossible, certainly the even easier argument would be to rescind the health insurer's exemption from antitrust law.
OR, another excellent progressive suggestion was to allow people to buy health insurance across state lines, BUT to ensure that the insurance providers don't get to pick choice of law and put it in their insurance contracts. That way the state you live in would govern the rights you have against your insurer. If you live in a state that is lenient to insurance companies, you can choose to move to one that is harsh to them. This amendment was excluded from the final senate bill.
But at least the health reform bill did some significant good for people. The financial reform bill is almost 100% incapable of fixing the problem at all, unless Elizabeth Warren or a truly zealous consumer advocate is put in charge of CFPA.
But the #1 suggestion from progressives has been PLEASE CONTINUE TO KEEP THE AMERICAN PEOPLE INFORMED ABOUT HOW TO FIGHT AGAINST CORRUPTION AND CORPORATISM. He had the ear of so many Americans who would otherwise not pay attention to all of this overwhelming political complexity. He could've guided people through it. He really didn't try.
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Philv
July 26, 2010 11:51 AM in reply to dotkommissar
Sorry for the late reply--my response to you on the PO is that the votes weren't there in the, wait for it, House for what you wanted, much less the Senate. So getting a strong public option wasn't in the cards. A weak public option? Perhaps if the hand had been played better. Worth destroying the entire bill over? Here's where we just disagree, I assume your top priority from HC reform was lowering your personal costs whereas mine was getting the uninsured coverage so people would stop dying from not having insurance. Your goal is extremely important as well, both for everyone's personal finances and for the finances of the government, and I'm not going to pretend that what was passed is going to solve this problem. I think it's going to help, but the next fight has to be over a strong public option (and that only).
As for the rest, I don't see specifics here. The reason this discussion always disintegrates is because the people on my side don't see the arguments from your side as being doable (given the constraints of how our government works) and we see a tendency toward extreme hyperbole about what has actually been done. Thus, my version of your original dialogue.
I'll be bold enough to make a prediction, W style. In 20 years Obama will be held up as an icon of this party. In 40 years he'll be viewed much as FDR is today, which of course means that no one will talk about his numerous mistakes and everyone will assume he did much more than actually happened as well as that he did it pretty much immediately. I know you'll disagree, I assume you think he'll be regarded like Clinton or some other successful failure. We'll see I suppose.
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whitesauce
July 23, 2010 4:09 PM
I'll be as reasonable as I can, though I expect to be ridiculed.
I agree that in the big picture, we need to support President Obama: Fine. That's not really the problem at all. Contrary to some characterizations, NetRoots Nation is not anti-Obama. FDR told activists in his own party, "I agree with you, I want to do it, now make me do it." That's the job of NetRoots -- to make Obama do the things I thought we all wanted him to do.
What disappoints me most is that a couple of years ago, we were (and are) all critical of any Republican who would just blindly support President Bush. Today, some of the same critics have become hypersensitive about any criticism of President Obama. Can any of you who are critical of Progressives name one thing that Obama has done that has frustrated you? Will you? Is there anything that Progressives are frustrated about that you deem legitimate? What's happening here is NO different than what Republican did with Bush. We were supposed to be better than that.
What's worse is that if Obama were to lose in 2012, Progressives would be blamed and the Democratic Party would be split again. That would be convenient for those of you who are contributing nothing to the debate but name-calling, but it's not going to get us anywhere. There is plenty of constructive criticism for the President. If we were all honest about that, we, united, would be making more progress.
Instead of belittling Progressives, which you might do at the party's peril, let's have a constructive conversation about what we should do. This whining about whether we support the President enough is immature.
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Apphouse50
July 23, 2010 4:39 PM in reply to whitesauce
Thank you. Very well put.
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SkepticalCidada
July 23, 2010 4:14 PM
I stopped reading at "why don't you vote Republican." You obviously have nothing useful to contribute. As long as Obama is one millimeter to the left of Bush, you expect every progressive to bow down and worship Obama, no matter how deeply he keeps burying daggers in our backs. Not going to happen, no matter how obnoxious you repeat talking point #3.
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roxsteady
July 23, 2010 4:26 PM in reply to SkepticalCidada
Did you watch the clip of Maddow that I posted below? I have plenty to add and Maddow sums it up better than I ever could have! WATCH THE DAMN CLIP!
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roxsteady
July 23, 2010 4:19 PM
Perhaps some perspective is in order here
Read this!
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/6/26/879555/-Rachel-Maddow-Compares-Obamas-Legislative-Record-to-FDR-
And or Watch This!
http://www.luimbe.com/2010/06/29/obamas-legislative-accomplishments/
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whitesauce
July 23, 2010 4:34 PM in reply to roxsteady
Rachel Maddow has been critical of the administration and yet she also credits it when it's appropriate. Most people are not arguing that the Obama administration has accomplished a lot. If you really read Firedoglake and the DailyKos, you would know this is true. We can support the President AND criticize him. The circular firing squad only forms we don't respect the opinion of those who make legitimate points.
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 4:35 PM in reply to roxsteady
You must be rich. Because you don't seem to be concerned that Obama has informed everyone that the financial services sector has been reformed. Crisis averted. That is not true. And all the pressure has been released.
There is a real life problem here. This isn't political grandstanding. All I care about is preventing the massive human suffering that will result if credit dries up again because someone sets of the naked credit default swap minefield.
How can you be "satisfied" with someone who only half saved your country from economic collapse? That's the definition of denial.
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roxsteady
July 23, 2010 4:43 PM in reply to dotkommissar
No that's the definition of a pragmatists! You may not like it but, we got what we could for now. I guess that it's an all or nothing for some people. I prefer to take my lumps and keep on fighting. Those of you who have been beaten have just as much of a right to retreat!
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 5:14 PM in reply to roxsteady
ok now i see where you're misunderstanding.
politics isn't like sports. you aren't a spectator rooting for one side or another. you exert a little bit of force that can help push elected officials in different directions.
so here's the problem. 100 liberals say "i want don't ask don't tell repealed because discrimination is horrible, and our military can't afford to fire talented soldiers over religious biggotry."
and then 100 conservatives say "absolutely no homos, cuz I said so." the force of everyone's views roughly equal out, and for the time being, the President says, geez, well I'm going to postpone dealing with this because the wind is blowing too strong in either direction.
But then, 50 of the liberals, let's call them centrist democrats, say, well alright, the President said we should wait a while before trying to do this. Sucks, but I trust his judgment.
Now there are twice as many unrelenting conservatives frothing at the mouth about 'them their gay-uns', and before you realize it, the democrats have promised not to repeal don't ask don't tell until the military has reviewed the consequences, as if anyone has ever actually named a single negative consequence that might result, AND as if we are to believe that our military, which has had closeted gay soldiers for its entire history, hasn't bothered to research the best methods of implementing the repeal back when Clinton was pushing for LGBT civil rights.
You need to push the President. You need to give him the excuse to say, well now conservatives, I'm sorry but I just can't do that. The left won't let me.
What's so fukin sad about this is the irony of it - THE CENTRIST DEMOCRATS are the ones blowing out their own candle, because they're tired of all the struggle and effort.
Van Jones needs to give this speech to y'all.
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Lono65
July 23, 2010 5:16 PM in reply to roxsteady
And what do you think you'd have "gotten" if those of us arguing for more had just sit down and shut up?
In order for you centrist moderate pragmatists to be pragmatic, you need some of us on the left to be outspoken in favor of greater change. Otherwise, you guys start negotiating from the middle and end up with something significantly right-of-center.
In order to counter the loudmouth Teabaggers, you need some loudmouth Progressives. You're welcome.
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 5:23 PM in reply to roxsteady
ok now i see where you're misunderstanding.
politics isn't like sports. you aren't a spectator rooting for one side or another. you exert a little bit of force that can help push elected officials in different directions.
so here's the problem. 100 liberals say "i want don't ask don't tell repealed because discrimination is horrible, and our military can't afford to fire talented soldiers over religious biggotry."
and then 100 conservatives say "absolutely no homos, cuz I said so." the force of everyone's views roughly equal out, and for the time being, the President says, geez, well I'm going to postpone dealing with this because the wind is blowing too strong in either direction.
But then, 50 of the liberals, let's call them centrist democrats, say, well alright, the President said we should wait a while before trying to do this. Sucks, but I trust his judgment.
Now there are twice as many unrelenting conservatives frothing at the mouth about 'them their gay-uns', and before you realize it, the democrats have promised not to repeal don't ask don't tell until the military has reviewed the consequences, as if anyone has ever actually named a single negative consequence that might result, AND as if we are to believe that our military, which has had closeted gay soldiers for its entire history, hasn't bothered to research the best methods of implementing the repeal back when Clinton was pushing for LGBT civil rights.
You need to push the President. You need to give him the excuse to say, well now conservatives, I'm sorry but I just can't do that. The left won't let me.
What's so fukin sad about this is the irony of it - THE CENTRIST DEMOCRATS are the ones blowing out their own candle, because they're tired of all the struggle and effort.
Van Jones needs to give this speech to y'all.
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Lono65
July 23, 2010 4:21 PM
If we don't stand up on the left, the center moves ever further to the right.
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roxsteady
July 23, 2010 4:36 PM
What I don't have to add is bullshit snark that isn't even remotely related to what Jones said. You don't have to agree with him. That's your right but, putting stupid words into his mouth that were never spoken puts you in Breitbart territory. Not a good place to be.
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 4:48 PM in reply to roxsteady
please tell me if I'm misconstruing what Van Jones said:
Stop criticizing Obama for compromising in the fight against those responsible for looting the country. He did the best he could, even though the risk of another collapse hasn't been reduced at all.
You guys aren't getting this CRUCIAL, though apparently subtle point.
Many progressives are FINE with Obama saying that this is the best he could do. The ONLY problem is that he isn't leading the country in the direction towards eliminating the obstacles that kept him from doing more. He could have used stagnation in Congress as a teachable moment. Instead he falsely inflated the statute of his legislative accomplishments, contributing to the widening gap between reality and the world view of most americans.
He lied for his party's political advantage.
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rider
July 23, 2010 4:43 PM
If Obama goes after The Military Industrial complex to hard he will making a big political mistake.----An inside look at Brown & Root, the kingpin of America's new military-industrial complex
Early on the morning of Aug. 5, a U.S. mail convoy pulled out of the airport in Baghdad and headed north. A U.S. Army Humvee bristling with weaponry led the way, followed by three heavily loaded trucks, each driven by a civilian employee of Kellogg Brown & Root (KBR). A second military Humvee brought up the rear. Near Tikrit, Saddam Hussein's hometown, a bomb detonated under one of the trucks. The military police pried its driver, Fred Bryant Jr., from the wreckage and raced him to a military field hospital. Bryant, 39, died en route, the first KBR combat casualty since the Texas contractor was founded in 1919.
Bryant's death underscores the U.S. military's heavy reliance on private military companies, or PMCs, to wage war in Iraq. By most estimates, civilian contractors are handling as much as 20% to 30% of essential military support services in Iraq. Scores of PMCs are active all across the country, but KBR in particular has become indispensable to the global projection of American military might in this unsettled age. "It is no exaggeration to say that wherever the U.S. military goes, so goes Brown & Root," says P.W. Singer, a Brookings Institution fellow and author of Corporate Warriors. Widely known as Brown & Root, KBR is a unit of oil-services giant Halliburton Co. (HAL ) -- Dick Cheney's old company.
KBR and its rivals figure crucially in the increasingly clamorous debate over the size and structure of America's armed forces. To save money, the U.S. has pared its roster of active-duty troops by 32%, to 1.5 million, since 1991. But a not-so-funny thing happened on the way to the post-Cold War new world order: Terrorist networks proliferated, and long-suppressed ethnic conflicts broke out all over the globe, prompting the U.S. to intervene militarily. The Pentagon was able to maintain -- and perhaps even boost -- the potency of America's armed forces by developing an awesome array of new high-tech weaponry and replacing tens of thousands of soldiers with civilian PMC workers.
The Bush Administration was so confident of America's military superiority that it went into Iraq with a much smaller, more nimble force than the huge multinational coalition that was assembled to push Saddam out of Kuwait in 1990. The swift defeat of the Iraqi army seemed to invalidate the Powell Doctrine, which holds that the U.S. should fight only when it has an overwhelming numerical edge. But occupying Iraq with 140,000 U.S. troops (plus 21,700 from Britain and other countries) is proving another matter altogether, putting the new contractor-dependent military to its most severe test to date.
Critics of the Bush Administration argue that it will require a force of 300,000 to 500,000 soldiers to pacify Iraq. But even if the U.S. wanted to substantially boost troop levels, it's not clear where reinforcements would come from. About 50% of the Army's active-duty troops are on foreign soil already, and in many key military specialities, the deployment percentage is much higher. For example, 90% of all American military police are already on active duty. With U.S. troops tied down in terrorist-hunting and peacekeeping missions from the Philippines to Liberia to Uzbekistan, America's downsized armed forces are stretched thin -- perilously so, say many experts.
The era of military shrinkage clearly has ended, yet the Bush Administration is resisting calls to begin expanding the Army again. Instead, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld is weighing a series of measures designed to increase the potency of America's armed forces without incurring the expense -- financial and political -- of putting more Americans in uniform. In essence, Rumsfeld wants the Pentagon to make more effective use of existing resources. Above all, that means substituting even more civilians for troops and leaning even more heavily on PMCs. There are "something in the neighborhood of 300,000 men and women in uniform doing jobs that aren't for men and women in uniform," Rumsfeld said during Senate testimony in July.
No company is better positioned to take over those jobs than KBR. Over the past decade, the company has housed, fed, and maintained American fighting forces in some of the most geographically remote and politically dangerous regions on earth. It has proven itself capable of efficiently mobilizing its own vast army of engineers, cooks, and logistics experts, often on short notice. Even rival PMCs generally praise it as an adept and reliable operator. "They have a good performance record," says Albert J. Konvicka, president of AECOM Government Services Inc., a Fort Worth-based PMC. "They can react very quickly to situations. I respect them as a competitor."
But outsourcing is no panacea for America's overextended military. Brown & Root and most other PMCs work strictly in a supporting role. Their employees maintain America's high-tech weapons and train soldiers how to use them but depend heavily on their military customers for protection in combat zones. If security breaks down, as it often has in Iraq, the PMC support system is liable to malfunction, too. Lieutenant General Charles S. Mahan Jr., the Army's top logistics officer, recently complained that so many civilian contractors had refused to deploy to particularly dangerous parts of Iraq that soldiers had to go without fresh food, showers, and toilets for months. Even mail delivery fell weeks behind, Mahan complained in a July 31 interview with Newhouse News Service. "We thought we could depend on industry to perform these kind of functions," Mahan said. But it got "harder and harder to get [them] to go in harm's way."
General Mahan didn't knock Brown & Root by name. He didn't have to; the company is by far the biggest services contractor in Iraq, with more than 2,500 employees in Central Asia and the Middle East as a whole. U.S. Civil Administrator L. Paul Bremer III and the 1,000-person Office of Reconstruction & Humanitarian Assistance depend on the company for food and shelter, as do at least 100,000 of the U.S. troops stationed in Iraq. In addition, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers turned to KBR and KBR alone to help repair damaged oil wells and pipelines and get Iraqi crude -- the key source of reconstruction revenue -- flowing again to export markets.
For its work in support of the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, KBR has billed the U.S. government about $950 million for work completed under contracts capped at $8.2 billion. At the same time, KBR is in line to earn tens of millions of dollars more to maintain the archipelago of U.S. military bases that now arcs from the Balkans south to the Horn of Africa and east to Afghanistan and Kyrgyzstan. Closer to home, KBR built the detention camps in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, that house Taliban and al Qaeda prisoners. All in all, no corporation has played as central a role in America's global anti-terrorism campaign -- or profited as handsomely from it -- as KBR.
The company's high-profile success in winning contracts, coupled with its intimate ties to the White House, has aroused suspicions that it is a beneficiary of political favoritism. Although Cheney no longer owns stock in Halliburton, he was its chairman and CEO for five years and either hired or promoted many of the executives now running Halliburton and KBR. At the insistence of two powerful House Democrats, Henry A. Waxman of California and John D. Dingell of Michigan, the General Accounting Office, the investigative arm of the U.S. Congress, is looking into the issue of whether KBR has received special treatment in the awarding of Defense Dept. contracts over the past two years.
David J. Lesar, Halliburton's current chairman and CEO, is exasperated by the controversy swirling around his company. "Despite some of the media scrutiny you've seen, within the organization we are very, very proud of what we do to support the military and, I think, save the U.S. taxpayer some money," says Lesar, who insists that all of KBR's dealings with the Pentagon have been at arm's length.
Robert "Randy" Harl, KBR's president and CEO, insists that General Mahan's complaints do not apply to KBR. The company "has met every commitment we have made to the military," Harl says. "Our company has no higher priority than to support our military on the ground." Mahan was unavailable to discuss his criticisms of civilian contractors with BusinessWeek; the 57-year-old three-star general retired from military service shortly after making his comments. A Pentagon spokesman declined to comment.
Mahan's departure will do nothing to quell the debate over the military's rising dependence on Brown & Root and other PMCs. There is general agreement that it makes sense to shift troops out of jobs that contractors can handle at least as well -- and probably at less cost -- and let them concentrate on purely military tasks. "The cost-savings argument for outsourcing is not nearly as compelling as the potential improvement from quality of service or flexibility," says Steven L. Schooner, co-director of government-procurement law at George Washington University Law School.
The outsourcing trend also is being driven by the accelerating sophistication of military software and hardware. The high-tech weapon systems used to such devastating effect in Afghanistan and Iraq are so complex that combat units in the field have no choice but to depend on expert civilians to maintain and, in some cases, operate them. The F-117 stealth fighter, M1A1 tank, Patriot missile, and Global Hawk unmanned drone are all heavily contractor-dependent.
Skeptics, who include many members of the military Establishment, warn that the growing PMC presence on the battlefield exposes America's armed forces to potentially catastrophic risk. As civilians, contract employees are not subject to military command and discipline. Workers who refuse an assignment can be fired by their employers but not tossed into the brig. The Pentagon's only recourse is to sue -- no comfort at all to a commander in the field who has been left in the lurch by vanished contractors. A PMC's ultimate duty is not to its military customers but to its shareholders. "Contractor loyalty to the almighty dollar, as opposed to support for/of the front-line soldier, remains [a] serious question," warned a U.S. Army War College paper last year.
Although the ultimate interests of the military and the PMCs diverge, their routine dealings are defined by cooperation, not conflict. The emergence of a robust private military industry has set the revolving door between the Pentagon and private industry spinning faster than ever. From top to bottom, the typical PMC is heavily staffed by ex-military officers. "Roger that," replies Billy J. Gray, a well-traveled KBR manager now stationed at Camp Bondsteel in Kosovo, when asked if he is ex-Army. Like many of his colleagues, Gray gets a bigger paycheck from KBR than he did in his Army days, and he still gets his military pension, which, for a veteran with 20 years' service, amounts to 50% of his old salary.
Military Professional Resources Inc. (LLL ), an Alexandria (Va.) military consulting firm, boasts of having "more generals per square foot than the Pentagon." But no PMC has forged a more intimate connection with America's warfighters than Brown & Root, whose forté is building and maintaining military bases in dangerous places. At locations such as Camp Bondsteel and Camp Arifjan in Kuwait, KBR employees literally live with the soldiers -- albeit within a separate compound on the base -- thereby alleviating the privations while sharing many of the dangers of military life. Says GWU's Schooner: "Brown & Root has won the hearts, minds, and stomachs of everybody in the military."
Unlike soldiers, however, KBR employees have the option of quitting at any time. "I've raised my hand before and said, 'Guys, I'm burned out,"' says Gray, an engineer who oversees vehicle maintenance and electric-power generation at Bondsteel. Gray, who has worked for KBR for a decade, has taken three home leaves over the years. He just returned to work in April after a nine-month break. "I called up and said, 'Hey, I'm deployable again,"' he says.
The Defense Dept. is the private military industry's biggest customer, but hardly the only buyer in what is a truly global market. Great Britain and other established military powers have embraced military outsourcing to varying degrees, while numerous Third World countries have hired PMCs to train their armies and in some cases -- Sierra Leone, Angola, the Congo -- to literally fight their battles.
Brown & Root ranks among the five top defense contractors in the United Kingdom. Since 1997, KBR has owned a 51% stake in the Davenport Royal Docks, a former government facility where the company and its two English partners maintain the Trident fleet of nuclear submarines. In late July, the Ministry of Defense named a consortium led by Brown & Root as the preferred bidder for a 4 billion-pound, 30-year contract to upgrade British Army garrisons housing a total of 18,000 soldiers and civilians.
Everyone agrees that the global PMC business is booming, but no one knows exactly how big it is. A two-year study completed in 2002 by the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists identified 90 PMCs operating in 110 countries. U.S. companies dominate, but sizable PMCs operate out of Britain, South Africa, Russia, Israel, and elsewhere. Many PMCs are privately owned, and even the ones that are part of publicly held corporations, such as KBR, tend to provide minimal financial detail. Much of the work PMCs perform is classified "secret" by their government clients. But for many of them, reclusiveness also is a public-relations strategy. The private military industry has an image problem reducible to a single, rather dirty word: mercenary.
The tradition of hired foreign guns is older than the gun, dating to ancient times. The Geneva Conventions of 1949 criminalized the mercenary trade, driving it underground. Mercenaries are still very much with us -- especially in Africa -- but they tend to operate in small, ragtag units of limited effectiveness. In short, they cannot begin to compete with PMCs, which have legitimized the military-services business by reorganizing it into corporate form. Scrupulously avoiding the shadowy, freebooting margins of the business, KBR acts only as a working partner of the armed forces of the U.S. and its allies, never as their proxy. In addition, the company shuns all assignments that require carrying weapons, including sentry duty at military bases, a PMC staple.
Brown & Root's military-contracting operation is an extension of the company's original business: engineering and construction. During World War II, Brown & Root landed its first military contracts and eventually built hundreds of ships for the U.S. Navy. Its employees accompanied U.S. troops to Korea and Vietnam, building bases, roads, harbors, and so on. In 1963, Brown & Root sold out to oil-services giant Halliburton (becoming Kellogg Brown & Root with the addition of oil-pipe fabricator M.W. Kellogg in 1998). Taking its cues from Halliburton, KBR emphasized energy projects, exiting the military business altogether after the U.S. withdrew from Vietnam in 1973.
Desperate for new sources of revenue during the cataclysmic oil-industry contraction of the mid-1980s, KBR tiptoed back into military contracting in 1987 -- this time to stay. "We see it as a very nice adjunct to the rest of the business," says Halliburton CEO Lesar. "It requires many of the same capabilities that we must have to execute our basic strategy, which is serving our oil-and-gas customers: good engineering, good logistics, the ability to get people on the ground fast, the ability to handle enormous amounts of data."
Military contracting now accounts for only about 20% of KBR's revenues -- which is unfortunate for shareholders, since this business is the best thing the beleaguered unit has going for it. Over the past 12 months, KBR has incurred operating losses of $675 million on revenues of $6.1 billion. The company is so weighed down by asbestos-related liabilities incurred by its construction business that it plans to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy this fall to settle pending personal-injury claims. KBR's government-contracting unit will not be included in the Chapter 11 filing.
In this year's second quarter, KBR earned $17 million on the $292 million in revenue produced by its work in Iraq, a paltry margin of 5.8%. On the other hand, the military business is reliably profitable and far less capital-intensive than either oil services or construction because the government owns virtually all the fixed assets. Under the "cost-reimbursable" contracts common in military logistics, KBR passes along 100% of its costs to the customer and is assured of a 1% profit. In addition, the company can earn an "award fee" of 1% to 8% of total expenditures depending on how well it performs.
The bulk of KBR's military business has come in through a single, infinitely expandable contract called the Logistics Civil Augmentation Program, or LOGCAP for short. When Brown & Root won the first LOGCAP contract in 1992 over three other bidders, no one imagined that it would burgeon into what the Contract Services Assn. calls "the mother of all service contracts." For a fee of $3.9 million, LOGCAP I required KBR to develop contingency plans for deploying U.S. forces to 13 different parts of the world. But LOGCAP was more than brainwork: The company had to be ready, on short notice, to transport a fighting force of up to 50,000 troops to any location in the world and to supply them with food and other essentials for as long as six months.
Brown & Root was called into combat for the first time in late 1992, accompanying U.S. forces into Somalia in support of a U.N.-sponsored intervention. Soon, KBR was Somalia's largest employer, with 2,500 locals on the payroll. The Army paid the company $110 million for Somalia and $141 million to assist 18,000 troops sent into Haiti on another U.N. mission in 1994. But it wasn't until the U.S. led NATO forces into Bosnia in 1995 that KBR -- and the entire private military industry -- came of age.
Limited by Presidential order to calling up no more than 4,300 reservists, the Army turned to Brown & Root and scores of other contractors. During one of the harshest Balkan winters on record, KBR joined with military engineers to create 34 bases from former U.N. camps, abandoned factories, ruined buildings, and open fields. The company supplied most of the building materials needed because it was able to make deliveries faster than the Army could, according to a GAO report. The 16,200 soldiers who filled the camps depended almost entirely on KBR for food and other necessities.
KBR's LOGCAP agreement expired in 1997, and the U.S. Army Material Command awarded a new five-year contract to rival Dyncorp (CSC ) "Losing that was quite a blow," Harl concedes. "We turned in a proposal that was not fully responsive to what [the AMC] was looking for." The Army softened the blow considerably by carving out the Balkans under a separate contract given to Brown & Root. The company continued to operate in Bosnia -- and moved south into Kosovo with the Army when war erupted there in 1999. In short order, KBR built three more large bases and scores of peripheral outposts.
Through 2002, the Army has paid KBR about $2.5 billion for its work in the Balkans. Neither the company nor the Army will disclose how much of this is profit. An Army spokeswoman says that on average, KBR has received about 90% of the maximum fee award of 8% to 9%. This works out to a profit of about $200 million. In recent years, the U.S. has sharply reduced its troop levels in the Balkans and closed most of its bases. KBR continues to run the bases that remain and is projected to receive $367 million more in payments this year and next, when its contract expires.
The Army's spending in Bosnia repeatedly exceeded projections, attracting intensive scrutiny in Washington. However, in 1997, a Logistics Management Institute study found that it would have taken 8,918 troops and $638 million to do what KBR's 6,766 employees had done for $462 million. "When compared with the costs of using an equivalent military force," the study concluded, "the use of LOGCAP contractors is economical."
The big savings is in labor costs. A PMC does not have to pay the cost of training and deploying a soldier. It also can subcontract out to local workers -- "host country nationals" in the parlance of the trade -- at much lower rates than U.S. government scale. For example, in the Balkans, KBR paid carpenters, electricians, and plumbers $15.80 an hour on average, compared with the $24.38 government rate. The wage gap was largest for basic laborers: $1.12 an hour, vs. $15.99.
Still, the GAO, which twice investigated LOGCAP spending in the Balkans, chided the Army for the laxity of its oversight of contractors' cost-plus spending. "Army and other [Defense Dept.] officials have typically accepted [KBR's] judgment and not questioned the level of services being provided," the GAO noted in a 2000 report entitled Army Should Do More to Control Contract Cost in the Balkans. The agency gave KBR high marks, the report continued, but noted that military officials often were unable "to explain the frequency of services being provided, such as...cleaning latrines three times a day."
In 2001, KBR outbid Dyncorp and another company to win back the LOGCAP contract, now extended to a duration of 10 years. Under LOGCAP, KBR has received assignments potentially worth as much as $183 million to support the hunt for al Qaeda and other terrorist operatives in Afghanistan and neighboring countries. The company maintains the two biggest bases in Afghanistan -- at Bagram and Kandahar -- and Camp Stronghold Freedom in Uzbekistan. Meanwhile, Operation Iraqi Freedom has sent $1 billion more in LOGCAP business KBR's way to date, and new work orders still are being issued at the rate of a half-dozen per month.
In late 2002, the Pentagon asked KBR to grapple with a question complicating U.S. plans for invading Iraq: What to do if Saddam torches his own oil fields, as he did Kuwait's during the last Gulf War? KBR drew up a classified contingency plan to deal with this nightmare scenario. The work was done under LOGCAP, but to help implement the plan, the Army Corps of Engineers signed KBR to a separate contract capped at $7 billion. General Robert Flowers, the Corps' commander, said the contract was awarded to KBR because the Army had complete confidence in the company and there wasn't time to put it out to bid -- an explanation that inflamed suspicions that the political fix was in.
Harl emphatically denies it. "Our people did a great job in securing that work, and Dick had nothing to do with it," Harl insists. Bill Allison of The Center for Public Integrity, a Washington-based government watchdog group, argues that Cheney does not have to actually pull strings to help his old company. "Cheney knows how things work," Allison says. "There are a number of ways you can help without actually being involved."
As it turned out, Saddam's forces set fire to only 9 of Iraq's 1,821 oil wells. But in the months since the U.S. captured Baghdad, saboteurs have done heavy damage to oil wells, pipelines, and other facilities throughout the country. This massive repair job has fallen to Task Force RIO (Restore Iraqi Oil), which consists of some 300 Brown & Rooters and a smaller Army Corps of Engineers contingent. KBR has finished $705 million worth of this work to date. The money will keep rolling in for another few months but likely will fall well short of $7 billion -- a figure that presumed an oil-field conflagration of apocalyptic scope. KBR's contract, which was always intended as a stopgap measure, will be replaced at yearend by two new contracts, each potentially worth $500 million, according to the Corps of Engineers. KBR is an odds-on bet to win one but not both contracts, if only because a double victory likely would provoke Waxman and Dingell to new heights of outrage.
Lesar expects KBR to remain an opportune political target for as long as Cheney occupies the White House. "That's just part and parcel of living with who my predecessor was," he says, adding that no amount of contention will dissuade KBR from pursuing new military business. "If I believe there is a piece of work out there that we have the capability to do," Lesar says, "I have an obligation to my shareholders to go after it."
In coining the term "military-industrial complex" in his farewell address to the nation in 1961, President Dwight D. Eisenhower -- retired five-star general and war hero Eisenhower -- warned of the incestuous ties that had formed between the Defense Dept. and the "permanent armaments industry" birthed by World War II. Eisenhower worried that the Pentagon's pursuit of its bureaucratic imperatives could combine with arms makers' pursuit of profit to thrust the U.S. into a war the country did not need and perhaps could not win.
The big weapons manufacturers that alarmed Eisenhower have shrunk in number and size since the Cold War ended. But the emergence of the private military company has extended the relationship that so worried Eisenhower, pushing it beyond the executive suite and factory floor onto the battlefield itself. The PMCs' adaptability is politically as well as militarily useful to the government. Why take the heat of calling up reservists when you can summon civilians-for-hire? Why try to persuade Congress to sanction the use of U.S. troops in Colombia's war on narco-guerrillas when you can send in contractors to spray coca fields and train paramilitary groups -- as both the Clinton and Bush Administrations have done?
The new military-industrial complex seems to pose at least as much danger to itself as it does to society. Contractor no-shows in Iraq have jolted U.S. military planners who expected a repeat of Brown & Root's yeomanlike performance in the Balkans. Says Brooking Institution's Singer: "Now that the Army's eyes have been opened up on this, they are thinking through other scenarios, with war in Korea being not only the most likely but the most worrisome possibility."
If conditions in Iraq continue to deteriorate, plenty of other people will be focused on whether the policy of replacing soldiers with private contractors, even in support roles, can be taken too far. The ultimate fear, of course, is that contractors under extreme duress will flee en masse, exposing U.S. soldiers to catastrophic risk -- a disastrous outcome that not even Eisenhower foresaw.
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 4:57 PM in reply to rider
jeesum lord mercy. can you summarize that wall of text please? some of us are trying to get work done between rants.
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FreeRider
July 23, 2010 4:58 PM in reply to rider
Fuck you!
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cwnidog
July 23, 2010 9:25 PM in reply to FreeRider
FreeRider, it doesn't frequently happen, but every once in awhile, you and I are shoulder-to-shoulder on a topic. This is certainly one of those.
I heartily second your "Fuck You" and raise it with a "With a cheese grater".
+1
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 4:59 PM in reply to rider
unlike you, msot of us are not getting paid to comment on this thread, rider.
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L.Kendra
July 23, 2010 5:11 PM in reply to dotkommissar
Free Rider is a smarter than you loser !!!
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SkepticalCidada
July 23, 2010 5:24 PM in reply to L.Kendra
Really? His comments don't demonstrate that.
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chameleon
July 23, 2010 5:44 PM in reply to SkepticalCidada
Actually they do indicate that and he is smarter than most folks here when it comes to understanding politics and they was it works.
It's wonderful to be idealistic and hope for Nirvana but it ain't gonna happen folks as Kash has posted so eloquently. Obama's trying -harder than any other president we've had in a long long time - probably not since Carter. The base turned their backs on Carter too and look what happened. If you all expected the sky to open and flowers and birds would be chirping and everything fixed overnight as you all obviously thought, then you deserve to be disappointed.
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Geoff Johnson
July 23, 2010 7:12 PM in reply to chameleon
Do you really think that those who criticize Obama "expected the sky to open and flowers and birds would be chirping and everything fixed overnight"? I mean, really? Who on earth would ever think such a thing, or indeed anything remotely like it?
Most people who comment here are smart enough to know that politics is hard, we often don't get what we want, and compromise is inevitable. Knowing that does not translate into automatic support of 98% of what the president does, and wishing he would do more (or at least try to do more) to push policy in a progressive direction does not mean one is an idiot who thought Obama was christ the redeemer until he took office. You're constructing and demolishing a straw man argument, and you'd probably be less worked up if you realized that.
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chameleon
July 23, 2010 7:39 PM in reply to Geoff Johnson
Yes I do from the contents of your posts and others - yes. Prove most of you are smart enough because all I have heard is whining and complaining and threatening to vote Green. That;s brilliant. No one says you can't criticize him - criticize him all you want - but most of what I read from you and the rest is just pure Obama bashing - nothing he has done has been good enough and those of us who support him are Obamabots (which btw is not an insult to me). I prefer to be an Obamabot than a firebagger.
BTW I am not worked up at all but nice try looking in that crystal ball of yours.
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cwnidog
July 23, 2010 9:21 PM in reply to rider
Gee pal, it's tough that they have to share the risks with the GIs, isn't it. Maybe they should try it on a Spec-4's pay.
Their former CEO had a hard-on for this war, KBR and its then parent pushed for it. It's a bitch when you have to die for the bottom line ain't it.
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Apphouse50
July 23, 2010 4:55 PM
For all of you who are so appalled at criticism being directed at Obama, it just struck me that Bill Donohue would love to have you guys on his team.
At the end of the week in which the Roman Catholic clergy abuse scandal burst onto every front page across the country, Boston's Cardinal Law, who by then had been revealed as one of the worst criminals in this city's history as far as I'm concerned, delivered the keynote in Philadelphia at a banquet for either Catholic Charities or Knights of Columbus. He was given a standing ovation.
My mother and many die-hard Catholics went into full wagon-circling, blame-the-victim mode, and everyone who uttered a peep of criticism was excoriated, even loyal Catholics who felt it was time to change things.
Not for a second do I equate Barack Obama (and yes, I absolutely consider him MY president) with the Catholic hierarchy, but this nonsense about "if you're not with Obama on everything, you're against him and us, go elsewhere" is very reminiscent of that for me.
When I'm in the presence of Rethugs I'll defend him to the death (well, maybe not to the death, but since hyperbole rules the day, what the hell?), but when I'm interacting with people I assume to be progressive or liberal or Democrats, I'll be damned if I have to sing "Everything is Beautiful" and clap hands for everything he and his administration do.
For those of you on the "love it or leave it" kick, I wonder if any of you know at what point in history you became idolators.
One person I'm pretty sure is no idolator when it comes to Barack Obama is Shirley Sherrod, but I'd be surprised if she's not still a supporter of his, especially considering who the opposition truly is. (And it's not Dems who take issue with some of the things he's done and hasn't done.)
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rider
July 23, 2010 4:58 PM
Samuel P. Bush/WWI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaSamuel Prescott Bush (October 4, 1863 – February 8, 1948) was an American industrialist ... to reorganize the War Industries Board as the U.S. prepared to enter World War I, ... Samuel P. Bush & Flora Sheldon. Prescott Sheldon Bush (m. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_P._Bush - Cached - Similar Prescott S Bush 1933 Whitehouse Coup and WWII----Democrats.com Archive: Prescott BushPrescott Bush was discharged in mid-1919, and returned for a short time to .... financier John S. Rockefeller and Wall Street banker and future U.S. Sen. ..... Before WWII, his grandfather Prescott Bush and his great-grandfather Bert ...
www.democrats.com/preview.cfm?term=Prescott%20Bush - Cached - Similar
* The Third Reich and the Bush family (Prescott Bush - a ...G.W.'s grandfather and great-grandfather, Prescott Bush and George Herbert ... September 1, 1939 - The Beginning of WWII. Britain's declared war on Germany ...
www.tupbiosystems.com/articles/bush_nazi.html - Cached - Similar
Project 60: A Day-by-Day Diary of WWII, October 20-November 2 ...s stock shares, all of which were owned by Prescott Bush, .... Each nation who fought against fascist tyranny in WWII brought with it part of whole needed ...
www.bartcop.com/421102.htm - Cached - Similar
The Bush family and the S&L (Savings and Loan) ScandalPrior to the American entry into WWII Prescott Bush was director of Union Banking ... For information on Prescott Bush Jr.'s economic ties to China see: ...
rationalrevolution.net/war/bush_family_and_the_s.htm - Cached - Similar George HW Bush/CIA/Zapata/Iran-Contra---George H.W. BushLike his son George and grandson George W., Prescott Bush, ... The CIA was using companies like Zapata to stage and supply secret missions attacking ... missiles to “terrorist” Iran and the illegal arming of the Nicaraguan contras and ...
www.famoustexans.com/georgebush.htm - Cached - Similar George W Bush/PNAC/9-11. Either they are and have been a part of the Military Industrial Complex for a long time or they sure have been scape-goated for a long time. I go with the first choice. My only question is why this isn,t the main debate in America? Without the answers none of this other BS means a thing.
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rwspisak
July 23, 2010 5:03 PM
Colleagues
I seem to see the same arguments over and over. SUPPORT OBAMA UNCRITICALLY! Be Patient - If you have doubts and criticisms, keep it to yourself. You just don't understand compromise. We've got to keep pushing. We're just beginning.
Seems to me these are arguments at cross purposes. YES, if we give in to lowest common denominator compromise, we must continue to keep up the pressure. That is supporting the progressive agenda. GEE Ma? Are they still following me?
But I've also heard the cry...Lead follow or get out of the way.
* Truman integrated the Army, a very progressive act.
* Lyndon passed Civil Rights a very progressive act.
FDR said, "...make me do it..." That strikes me as urging a tactic of keeping up pressure on elected leaders so they actually do the Progressive things they "electioneered on".
And for the "kool-aid quenched" there is a difference between compromise from a position (within your agenda) And throwing out the baby first then compromising on how much of the opponents agenda must be swallowed.
And finally there is no compromise worthy of the Constitutional damage that has not been walked back.
And now it is not a "progressive temper-tantrum" to notice how quickly they reacted to a discredited Right-Wing blogger... and their reluctance even scorn at progressive... quote the Rhaman...SH*T TH* F*CK U*
I for one signed up to support an agenda, I've never been a big fan of KOOLAID!
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PadrePio
July 23, 2010 5:11 PM
I have no intention of shutting the f@#k up no matter how many times I am told to or by whom. Mr.Jones is mistaken if he thinks progressives are going to accept legislation and policy aimed at appeasing Joe LIEberman, Ben Nelson, Kent Conrad, and the Republican party. Watered down "souled" our legislation that gives big banking or big insurance or big oil, etc more of our money is not the change we were told to expect from Obama.
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jhill3rd
July 23, 2010 5:19 PM
In my opinion, Van Jones is not telling progressives to stop criticizing Obama. He's asking us to step back and look at big picture for a second. We might like what we see and positively strive to make it better. Never give up my friends.
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benintn
July 23, 2010 5:27 PM in reply to jhill3rd
You were at Netroots Nation to hear Jones?
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chameleon
July 23, 2010 5:30 PM in reply to benintn
Were you????
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jhill3rd
July 23, 2010 7:38 PM in reply to benintn
I'm home in Baltimore. I wish I was there and San Diego Comic-con at the same time. One can dream :)
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acamus
July 23, 2010 6:13 PM in reply to jhill3rd
That sums it up pretty well.
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 5:24 PM
ok now i see where you're misunderstanding.
politics isn't like sports. you aren't a spectator rooting for one side or another. you exert a little bit of force that can help push elected officials in different directions.
so here's the problem. 100 liberals say "i want don't ask don't tell repealed because discrimination is horrible, and our military can't afford to fire talented soldiers over religious biggotry."
and then 100 conservatives say "absolutely no homos, cuz I said so." the force of everyone's views roughly equal out, and for the time being, the President says, geez, well I'm going to postpone dealing with this because the wind is blowing too strong in either direction.
But then, 50 of the liberals, let's call them centrist democrats, say, well alright, the President said we should wait a while before trying to do this. Sucks, but I trust his judgment.
Now there are twice as many unrelenting conservatives frothing at the mouth about 'them their gay-uns', and before you realize it, the democrats have promised not to repeal don't ask don't tell until the military has reviewed the consequences, as if anyone has ever actually named a single negative consequence that might result, AND as if we are to believe that our military, which has had closeted gay soldiers for its entire history, hasn't bothered to research the best methods of implementing the repeal back when Clinton was pushing for LGBT civil rights.
You need to push the President. You need to give him the excuse to say, well now conservatives, I'm sorry but I just can't do that. The left won't let me.
What's so fukin sad about this is the irony of it - THE CENTRIST DEMOCRATS are the ones blowing out their own candle, because they're tired of all the struggle and effort.
Van Jones needs to give this speech to y'all.
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Lono65
July 23, 2010 5:53 PM in reply to dotkommissar
That's it exactly...without a significant vocal force on the left, Obama has no cover to fight for progressive policy.
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acamus
July 23, 2010 7:06 PM in reply to dotkommissar
This is the kind of analysis of the dynamics of governance and how the DADT situation unfolded that part of the problem.
As James Withers points out on the website 365Gay, a slight majority of military personnel support DADT as a policy (although a large majority are comfortable around gays).
http://www.365gay.com/blog/062810-an-overview-of-the-pentagon-dadt-study/
But the point some have made is that the motivation for the process whereby Congress approved at the end result of the study was,in part, to provide the military personnel an opportunity to provide input as opposed to having handed to them and told "deal with it." This is very much of what constitutes Obama approach, what I personally would say is the 'community organizer' in him: he seeks people to have buy-in and this come only come about through having a part in the process.
As Withers writes: "The term “work with the Pentagon” is the middle of the road tactic the president prefers when it comes to thorny issues. He used the same tactic in health care. Offered a general outline of what he thought was important, let the Congress hammer it out, listened to critics, and made the final push when needed. There is a legitimate debate if this is the best option, but it is the “Obama way” when it comes to governing."
Personally in this case it makes sense that a better transition to the full inclusion of gays in the military would occur through this process rather than through directive. Because what is the actual objective is a working inclusion of the gay population, not a 'progressive victory' where we repeled DADT. But as Withers said it is a legitimate debate. But it is a debate that needs to focus on the actual dynamics of the process rather than on some idea that it is a matter of simply telling Obama we want it repelled (he already knows that and why he has set in motion the process to repel it).
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 11:33 PM in reply to acamus
Please give me one legitimate argument on the other side of the debate.
You keep calling it a legitimate debate. There is no legitimate debate at all. And you're acting as if it's ok for Obama to "take it slow" on people's civil rights. That's fucking shameful. He could've put repeal of DADT as a condition to granting the generals their AfPac surge. That would have at least made progressives feel like they got SOMETHING out of Obama's decision to surge.
Please show me the evidence for the actual serious difficulties the military would face by discarding DADT quickly and then I'll stop dismissing your garbage argument.
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acamus
July 23, 2010 7:08 PM in reply to dotkommissar
This is the kind of analysis of the dynamics of governance and how the DADT situation unfolded that part of the problem.
As James Withers points out on the website 365Gay, a slight majority of military personnel support DADT as a policy (although a large majority are comfortable around gays).
http://www.365gay.com/blog/062810-an-overview-of-the-pentagon-dadt-study/
But the point some have made is that the motivation for the process whereby Congress approved at the end result of the study was,in part, to provide the military personnel an opportunity to provide input as opposed to having handed to them and told "deal with it." This is very much of what constitutes Obama approach, what I personally would say is the 'community organizer' in him: he seeks people to have buy-in and this come only come about through having a part in the process.
As Withers writes: "The term “work with the Pentagon” is the middle of the road tactic the president prefers when it comes to thorny issues. He used the same tactic in health care. Offered a general outline of what he thought was important, let the Congress hammer it out, listened to critics, and made the final push when needed. There is a legitimate debate if this is the best option, but it is the “Obama way” when it comes to governing."
Personally in this case it makes sense that a better transition to the full inclusion of gays in the military would occur through this process rather than through directive. Because what is the actual objective is a working inclusion of the gay population, not a 'progressive victory' where we repeled DADT. But as Withers said it is a legitimate debate. But it is a debate that needs to focus on the actual dynamics of the process rather than on some idea that it is a matter of simply telling Obama we want it repelled (he already knows that and why he has set in motion the process to repel it).
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Lono65
July 23, 2010 5:36 PM
As I read thru the comments her, I wonder when Democrats started requiring loyalty oaths.
We all mocked GWB and his cronies for allowing only dyed-in-the-wool supporters in to see him speak...we mocked his inability to speak to honest criticisms of his policies. And rightly so.
But it seems some of Obama's supporters would have him behave in exactly the same way. It's absolutely black and white to them: Either you support Obama unconditionally, or you're a fucking traitor who needs to shut the fuck up.
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 5:40 PM in reply to Lono65
It's because most of the TPM regulars work for the administration. Their personal incentive for continued denial is understandable.
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FreeRider
July 23, 2010 5:48 PM in reply to Lono65
That's a nice statement coming from an asswipe like you who claims Obama and his supporters are traitors and sell-outs because we don't have a public option.
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Lono65
July 23, 2010 5:56 PM in reply to FreeRider
Why don't you point me to where I might have said anything even remotely resembling that?
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Geoff Johnson
July 23, 2010 7:18 PM in reply to FreeRider
So it's a problem (assuming it's even true) for someone to call Obama a traitor on the public option, but it's fine for you to call someone else an "asswipe" for saying something you don't agree with.
I know, I know, let me respond for you to save you the trouble of typing: They ARE an asswipe, and you are FreeRider, president of the internet and wisest human.
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jackson
July 23, 2010 5:44 PM
Hmm, and why didn't Van Jones raise a ruckus and fight back when "eased out", we haven't heard a peep from him, he caved shwoosh! Why isn't he attacking the FOX machine that is causing all this trouble for Obama? Come on Van.
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FreeRider
July 23, 2010 5:49 PM in reply to jackson
Because Van is an adult who realizes that this isn't about him and whether he gets his ass kissed. He realizes that this is about the democratic agenda.
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 6:32 PM in reply to FreeRider
If all progressives saw the error of their ways and agreed to support the democratic agenda along with you, everyone would still believe Shirley Sherrod was a racist.
You are a FOOL if you think that trusting Obama & supporting the democratic agenda is by definition the best choice available.
Upgrade your grey matter.
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Philv
July 23, 2010 6:00 PM
So, any bets on who is the next Progressive idol to turn him/herself into a sellout? I've got good odds on Elizabeth Warren if she is indeed tapped to run the Consumer Protection Agency...
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dotkommissar
July 23, 2010 6:28 PM in reply to Philv
Here's a better idea. Don't vote for another politician that doesn't pledge to make public funding of campaigns + closing the revolving door the utmost priority. In the meantime make your number one priority convincing others just how important those two things are.
That's the only chance. The system as is will transmute all integrity into impotence.
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LiberalRedneck
July 23, 2010 6:17 PM
Yes, support Obama uncritically until he gets re-elected. Then badmouth him all you want.
Don't like it? Tough shit. Welcome to American politics.
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Geoff Johnson
July 23, 2010 7:43 PM in reply to LiberalRedneck
Are you being serious with "support Obama uncritically until he gets re-elected"? I cannot tell.
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LiberalRedneck
July 23, 2010 8:21 PM in reply to Geoff Johnson
Yes. I am.
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cwnidog
July 23, 2010 9:35 PM in reply to LiberalRedneck
So, what you're saying is that it's OK to voice an opinion once it couldn't possibly matter?
Look upthread for my comment about a cheese grater.
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allinit
July 23, 2010 6:37 PM
OK angry mob. I know it is hard to break out of your hyper-partisian echo chamber but there is more than two options in the situation. You can actually provide something called constructive criticism. This reminds me of the JournoList scandal, everybody, every group can and will make mistakes. People are so self-centered that they respond to something not even directed at them, if you feel the need to defend yourself against a valid argument or critique then you might want to think what is wrong with your thinking.
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chameleon
July 24, 2010 12:11 AM in reply to allinit
Nice goin!!! Like that. Let's take an inner look.
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lpeggy
July 23, 2010 6:50 PM
Once again Van Jones is gracious AND right. Super-progressives do more damage to President Obama than any of the nutballs on Faux News or Teabaggers carrying signs. You never see Republican's damaging their own president. Maybe folks would rather be talking about President John McCain and his kooky side-kick Sarah Palin? Is that what they want?
They should grow-up and quit winning about this or that not being done in their own special time-frame, do they think that Obama is a dictator, who can just wave a magic wand, and solve all this countries problems in 18 months? If so, they have no understanding of the political process, and should bone-up on Schoolhouse Rock.
My point is, YES, please advocate for the things you want changed, or things you think the President has done wrong, or not done. BUT, this constant bitching about the President not having balls, or not being angry enough, does not solve anything, and just damages the Presidents standing.
I've been watching him in Illinois since his first race in 2002. Remember, he is not your boyfriend, or your best-friend, he is not going to do things on YOUR time-table or the way YOU want him to act. He is his own person, and very intelligent and very, very thoughtful and patient. That's what I voted for.
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LucidPanther
July 23, 2010 9:21 PM
I just watched Rachel Maddow list all the impressive accomplishments of Obama in less than two yrs in office. She explained that even though he has been extraordinarily successful legislatively, polls show Americans don't give him any credit.
The main reason being that right wingers are spending millions per week trashing his programs while Fox News pumps out their socialist, Kenyan, Nazi propaganda 24/7.
I think the situation is exacerbated by the 'super-progressives' who have temper tantrums and join in the attacks on the president from the left.
So Obama is being attacked form both his left and right flanks
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Joe Markowitz
July 23, 2010 9:35 PM
Speaking as part of the pep squad and also someone who heard Van Jones in person this morning, why not take a few minutes to listen to somebody who has every right to be bitter, but is instead challenging us not to give in to hate and fear and instead continue to embrace hope and change. My report here: http://www.hopeandchange.net
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chameleon
July 24, 2010 12:15 AM in reply to Joe Markowitz
Thank you Joe, That was worth the look. Thanks for coming and posting it. Stay around - you're input is needed. I've bookmarked your webpage.
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chameleon
July 24, 2010 12:17 AM in reply to Joe Markowitz
And a long time Calif res. in West Los Angeles
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Apphouse50
July 24, 2010 1:39 AM in reply to Joe Markowitz
Despite what some bombthrowers would suggest, I'm certainly not hate-filled when it comes to Barack Obama at this point, and I am pretty sure that when I'm seeing him in a rearview mirror, I'll be thinking, "Excellent guy overall." But patterns I'm seeing and patterns I wish I would see developing here are making me "extremely concerned."
It's sometimes been a struggle not to just give myself over to what I, who worked for years to separate from the Catholic Church, almost see being asked of me now: that I ignore what I consider to be advice urging me to count on miracles and not question the great and powerful POTUS. (I recall that from the Reagan years and subsequent worship, and I REALLY recall it from Catholicism.)
Trouble is, I was warned by a Midwestern dear friend who was an early Obama supporter big-time and then started watching votes he immediately started casting once he got to the Senate and said, "Whoa!" and backed away. But I was mighty impressed. Mighty. And I'm still sorta impressed, more than "sorta" but not a whole lot more, frankly.
But now I think back to those early warnings, before the primaries, and I realize I've been having to defend a number of things I'm not sure are totally defensible and often seem indefensible. And it's wearing mighty thin. This week I've reluctantly concluded that, to be kind about it, he's not made his presence felt with his own team quite enough -- at least going on what his presence was like, oh, say two years ago this time. And it's not like this is the first glimmer.
He'd pretty much have to turn out to be a polygamist or ax murderer for me to not be on his side, but I absolutely refuse to suggest that similarly concerned intelligent people who feel even more strongly about his performance than I do silence themselves. Including members of the media who choose to speak more strongly than I do and have a platform from which to do it, and yes I'm thinking "Ed Schultz."
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shoes4world
July 24, 2010 9:02 AM
Nutroots? That anything like Journolist?
this wesite is very good,you can go and see it
http://www.shoes4world.com/
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white0633
July 24, 2010 10:00 AM
Our website is: http://www.shoes2.us/
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July 24, 2010 10:16 AM
to van: shut the fuc up, he threw u under the bus....u keep gettin stabbed in the back, maybe thats how todays blacks think they should act...get a back bone, look who changed history..it wasnt the quiet and lame; mlk, parks, malcome x, etc...."
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Viva!America!
July 24, 2010 11:05 AM in reply to Corey
Progressives (those complaining) today could take a lesson from MLK. They are in no way like him. He brought people together, you demean those that disagree with you. The ones complaining are taking the Malcolm X tactic just a tad too far and even he softened and learn to be more constructive in the end. Rosa Parks? Ms. Parks engaged in civil disobedience where you risk your life or may get arrested. Progressives today sit at home and complain via posts by using profanity and capital letters.
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Viva!America!
July 24, 2010 11:12 AM
It must be disheartening to the left that those who were "thrown under the bus" by the Obama administration are not willing participants in your war against the White House. Van Jones is still a supporter and has moved on. Ms. Sherrod accepted Obama's apology, said she felt "very, very, good" after their conversation and even invited him to her hometown. Ms. Warren has defended the administration AND Geithner and I don't hear any bitterness from Dawn Johnsen. You guys could learn from these guys.
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July 24, 2010 12:08 PM
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Roberto39
August 5, 2010 1:53 AM
Dave, you brainwashed fool. The US is at war with terrorism, not the right, and until you and your fellow travelers realize this, you'll lose both wars.
In your "war" with the right, you never mention the Constitution-breaking acts of the Obama administration, thinking that not talking about them will help your cause (see DOJ's reversal of a voter intimidation trial results).
It doesn't bother me as much as it used to. I realize now if we prosecute the war against terrorism, we'll win that war and, if there is really a "war" between right and left, all the right has to do is remain silent and let the left continue its ways, none of which are fooling the majority of Americans any more. In my last argument with a leftist, he, in response to my question of the illegality of the DOJ, said that "Sarah Palin shot a moose from a helicopter." It appears we have won already.
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