
Pat Buchanan, the MSNBC commentator who's no stranger to controversial statements, said today that he thinks Newt Gingrich went "too far" when he compared the developers behind the Cordoba House Muslim community center to Nazis. It's "absurd," said Buchanan. "There is no valid comparison there."
Buchanan also called Gingrich a "political opportunist" who's trying to be "more controversial than Sarah Palin," who would be his potential primary challenger in the 2012 presidential election.
Buchanan continued:
How do you get more attention than Sarah Palin, who's very good at this, is to go two steps further. I mean, I think bringing the Nazis into the argument is always absurd in American politics because there is no valid comparison there. And secondly, you know, you bring that in and that's all we start talking about.
Watch:
This is the same Pat Buchanan who once asked the age-old question "Did Hitler Want War?" in a column, and who has even dabbled in some out-and-out Holocaust denial in his day.
Buchanan is also known for recently complaining that there are too many Jews on the Supreme Court, and for pointing out that white Americans think they are losing their country, "and they are right."
h/t CNN.
[TPM SLIDESHOW: Welcome To The Neighborhood: A Look At The Area Around The 'Ground Zero Mosque']
Ray Hicks
August 17, 2010 7:06 PM
Everything that Buchanan is and stands for aside, his call on Gingrich is spot on. He is an opportunist to beat the band. And for Buchanan, with his history, calling Gingrich out, it's like Himmler telling Eichmann to not tell so many Jewish jokes at a party!
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Cal Gal
August 18, 2010 9:44 AM in reply to Ray Hicks
FTW right out of the box.
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Ray Hicks
August 18, 2010 12:22 PM in reply to Cal Gal
FTW?
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ChrisB
August 18, 2010 12:35 PM in reply to Ray Hicks
For The Win. Means she liked your comment :)
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ClosetLuddite
August 18, 2010 12:40 PM in reply to ChrisB
I always thought it means F**k The World. Works either way I guess...
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LarryMo
August 18, 2010 3:46 PM in reply to ClosetLuddite
Yikes!!
Does this mean those popular Intertoobz shorthand acronyms actually DON'T mean
Liberal Obviously Lying
or
Radically Oppressive Foreigner Leftist Marxist Antichrist Obama?
LOL.
Totally.
And ROFLMAO also. Too.
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alfkuewoiuoaaa
August 18, 2010 9:44 PM in reply to Cal Gal
Everything is true!
Go in look look: http://www.bizboysell.com
Believe that you may need.
#$^^$#^$#^$#^$#^$#^#$#&$&$^**^*^%*^%^*%^(^
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Ugg the Repug
August 18, 2010 10:13 AM in reply to Ray Hicks
A Jew and a bloated pig-faced race-baiting adulterer walk into bar .... Har har har.
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kenga
August 18, 2010 3:24 PM in reply to Ugg the Repug
... bloated pig-faced race-baiting adulterer says "Ouch" because he was too busy looking at the mirror glued to his shoe-tip to see the bar.
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Ugg the Repug
August 18, 2010 5:23 PM in reply to kenga
Har har har. Good one Kenga. It could happen! Har har har. Call me Ug for short.
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Tamim
August 18, 2010 12:25 PM in reply to Ray Hicks
"nd for Buchanan, with his history, calling Gingrich out, it's like Himmler telling Eichmann to not tell so many Jewish jokes at a party!"
Say what you want, but isn't that a little too unfair?
I always have found Pat Buchanan and Ron Paul for that matter to be more adult, sane voice in the modern day GOP run amok by the warmongering neocons. I guess as paleocons they still have an iota of love for this country and don't want to see it emesehd in perpetual foreign wars with Muslims as its blood and treasure is run dry.
His calling out the Grinch on this is refreshing relative to the majority of the gutless Democrats who rather throw Muslims to their enemies to save their own political skin.
Bravo Pat!
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braveomatic
August 18, 2010 12:36 PM in reply to Tamim
I was under the impression that Buchanan was upset because Newt was stealing his act. Pat just wants to make sure that he's the go-to xenophobic racist of choice for Morning Joe.
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RepubAnon
August 18, 2010 10:28 PM in reply to braveomatic
Pat's just worried about someone linking his beloved Nazis to Muslims...
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slb
August 19, 2010 3:30 AM in reply to RepubAnon
You stole my line! I was going to write that myself!
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Ray Hicks
August 18, 2010 12:57 PM in reply to Tamim
Nice try, apologist, but it's not unfair. The most insightful description of Buchanan was by the late Molly Ivins who, when reporting after Buchanan's Nuremberg-like speech to the 1992 GOP Convention said, and I quote: "This sounded much better in the original German."
Buchanan, just last month whined that there were 'too many Jews' on the SCOTUS.
Don't bring a knife to a gunfight, Tamim.
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Dadzilla
August 19, 2010 3:10 AM in reply to Ray Hicks
A 3 pointer for quoting Molly!
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slb
August 19, 2010 3:34 AM in reply to Dadzilla
There's nobody like her! God, wouldn't she have had a field day with the current crop of prominent Repugs? I would give anything to see her chopping up Sarah Palin into itty bitty pieces!
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Commie Dearest
August 18, 2010 1:30 PM in reply to Tamim
You're correct, they are, relatively speaking, the saner voices, and that's what scares me, because THEY ARE IN NO WAY SANE!
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BillSoo
August 18, 2010 2:15 PM in reply to Tamim
I respect Pat more than the rest because at least he has the courage to defend his views to Rachel Maddow. Rachel usually kicks his butt of course, but I give the guy props just for showing up.
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Mary Alice
August 18, 2010 3:38 PM in reply to Tamim
If Rand Paul and Buchanan are the most sane members of the GOP, maybe it IS time for the Rapture. Anybody wanna to by a 97 Honda Civic hatchback?
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big jonny
August 18, 2010 6:13 PM in reply to Tamim
I will say this about Pat Buchanan and Ron Paul; I may disagree with them 90% of the time, but at least the are consistent.
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jjdjjd
August 18, 2010 4:22 PM in reply to Ray Hicks
haha, far left liberals talking about race, that is funny. the same liberals who herded blacks into cities, provided them with bad schools,no jobs, and food stamps for life, provide the ghetto's with drugs and crime, are now weighing in on the side of muslims. haven't you done enough damage already? as for buchanan, follow the money, who signs his paychecks? as for the mosque, well legally it can be built, but its in bad taste, but that never stopped a muslim, or a liberal. the funny thing is that suddenly liberals are crying out about freedom of religion, when for the past 40 years all you wanted was freedom FROM religion. if obama said the mosque was a bad idea you lemmings would agree with that. bunch of groupthink idiots, all of you. oh, and by the way, the muslims are useing you, when finished they will slit your throats.
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slb
August 19, 2010 3:39 AM in reply to jjdjjd
Shouldn't you get back to the rock you crawled out from under? Sunlight is not good for the likes of you.
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Ugg the Repug
August 19, 2010 2:50 PM in reply to slb
Har har har. He can crawl under Ugg rocks ... at bottom of fall far cliff. Har har har.
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Squire T
August 17, 2010 7:41 PM
Go Buchanan.
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Richard L. Adlof
August 17, 2010 8:07 PM
It's farging official. We're in Bizzaro World. When Pat Buchanan is the rational one on race . . .
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Richard L. Adlof
August 17, 2010 8:13 PM in reply to Richard L. Adlof
or religion or anything.
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The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve
August 17, 2010 9:02 PM in reply to Richard L. Adlof
Or Nazi references . . .
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Powkat
August 17, 2010 10:20 PM in reply to Richard L. Adlof
So true. Not that it makes Buchanan anywhere near sane, just less guano loco than Newt.
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ohyeathatsright
August 18, 2010 9:53 AM in reply to Powkat
Please stop attacking bat poop with your comparisons. Guano has many good uses, from fertilizer even to gunpowder. It doesn't deserve to be lumped together with the likes of Newt or Pat.
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Ann Arbor
August 17, 2010 10:04 PM
Pat's just insulted to have his Nazi pals compared to Muslims.
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August 18, 2010 12:07 PM in reply to Ann Arbor
My thoughts exactly.
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farnsworth
August 18, 2010 1:07 PM in reply to Ann Arbor
+1
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Rockridge
August 17, 2010 10:28 PM
Humanitarian Pat Buchanan stands up for Truth, Beauty, and the American Way. BTW, it would be nice if some prominent Democrat other than Obama would make such as reasonable statement.
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Ron Jeremy
August 17, 2010 10:29 PM
When that old anti-semite Pat Buchanan says you've gone too far, you're certifiably in Bachmann-batshit-crazy land
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neesy08
August 17, 2010 11:07 PM
i can't believe that for once i agree wih this man. hell must be freezing over.
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Hobbes83
August 18, 2010 12:30 AM in reply to neesy08
A busted clock is right two times a day...
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CityGuy
August 18, 2010 11:28 AM in reply to Hobbes83
Right you are! And Newtie wants the White House. That's why he is trying to out-crazy Caribou Barbie.
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sean
August 18, 2010 11:33 AM in reply to CityGuy
Newt's favorite cologne? Jovan Mosque.
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Michael A
August 17, 2010 11:14 PM
What amazes me about buchannan is that over the years he is sounding more and more sane compared to the rest of the republicans. It's not that he is getting saner, it's just that republicans are getting crazier. Frightening thought.
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Rick Jones
August 18, 2010 9:21 AM in reply to Michael A
excellent point
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*
August 18, 2010 10:25 AM in reply to Michael A
Buchanan is my kind of Republican...I know what's coming. I may not agree with him, but he is still within the realm of reasonableness...at the outer edge at times, but still within the realm of civility.
I can't say that for the rest of his Party.
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nick
August 18, 2010 11:29 AM in reply to *
Look I hardly ever agree with pat but at least hes consistent
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mezcalero
August 18, 2010 11:32 AM in reply to *
"but he is still within the realm of reasonableness"
You knew it was coming, and here it is!
Buchanan, ever since 1992, has always been a paleocon pain in the a** to the current neocon version of the Republican party. But he is not angel. Not by a long shot.
It sounded more like he took issue with the Nazi reference, instead of taking issue with the bigoted opposition to the community center.
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spg
August 18, 2010 1:20 PM in reply to Michael A
That was my first thought while watching: Buchanan is now a moderate Republican. That says an awful lot about Republicans.
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Mary Alice
August 18, 2010 3:39 PM in reply to Michael A
Amen.
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davis13
August 18, 2010 7:53 AM
Frightening indeed.
My brother is one of these brainless, reactionary idiots. Anyone else have an immediate family member who have drank deeply of the koolaid?
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Rojo Johnson
August 18, 2010 9:28 AM in reply to davis13
A lot of my friends are. I've had to block some of them from my Facebook feed because of their ignorant statements about anything political.
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georgecs
August 18, 2010 9:39 AM in reply to Rojo Johnson
I think that's a bad idea. Because they take your silence as assent and just drive deeper into the land of crazy. I say we fight back, relentlessly, not with arguments or hurling epithets, but by very nicely pointing out the inconsistencies and holes in their arguments. Constantly. Relentlessly. And as nicely as possible. Let them start the screaming. Because people with nothing to say have to say it very very loud...
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Mooser
August 18, 2010 10:53 AM in reply to georgecs
"not with arguments or hurling epithets, but by very nicely pointing out the inconsistencies and holes in their arguments. Constantly. Relentlessly. And as nicely as possible."
ROTFL! Stop it man, are you trying to kill me? I'm on the verge of an embolism here.
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mcrose68
August 18, 2010 12:40 PM in reply to Mooser
Here's what's funny about that statement.
The reationary right considers a reference to anything factual, such as basic laws of physics, to be just pure liberal bias and a demonstration of utopian naivity - and an unfair attack on their belief system. When you reference *anything* it only makes them spiral further into a paranoid Louie Gohmert style rant.
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georgecs
August 18, 2010 3:26 PM in reply to mcrose68
I know. I know. But you must be willing to fight and fight hard. If we let the forces of stupidity and intolerance and fear win, then we all lose.
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mcrose68
August 18, 2010 4:13 PM in reply to georgecs
I agree. And thanks for the pep-talk.
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slb
August 19, 2010 3:57 AM in reply to georgecs
I don't think "nice" will cut it, though. They don't respect "nice" -- they laugh at it and spit on it. You gotta give 'em white-hot indignation before they pay attention. Cf. Anthony Weiner, Alan Grayson, Keith Olbermann. Also Ted Kennedy.
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Mooser
August 18, 2010 10:51 AM in reply to Rojo Johnson
I watched what happened to my in-laws. They were lovely, depression-grown, FDR worshipping Democrats, workers and family raisers. Kindly mild people.
Then they retired, got a big flat-screen and cable. As their vision lessened, that flat-screen was the brightest, best focused thing they could see. And before I knew it, the right-wing tropes were coming out of their mouths. No, it wasn't a total kool-aid baptism, but still very, very unpleasant, as the flat-screen oracle began to transmute their values and replace their own life-experience with its crap..
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August 18, 2010 9:29 AM in reply to davis13
I have an in-law who has "defriended" me on FaceBook because I've occasionally pointed out that his ceaseless rants against Obama are just stupid. My wife informs me that she had to "quiet" him because of the seemingly Tourettes-driven racism. They've come completely loose of their moorings, these people.
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Rick Jones
August 18, 2010 10:12 AM in reply to Thomas
Well, the right-wingers and FoxNews have given them the freedom to throw off the shackles of reasonableness and reality.
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rwc
August 19, 2010 1:40 AM in reply to Rick Jones
exactly what's happened since Reagan, the extreme right has been legitimized and anybody to the left of a moderate Dem has been demonized
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*
August 18, 2010 10:33 AM in reply to Thomas
Tourettes-driven racism???
Could it be the only true requirement to be a tea-bagger is you must prove you have a Tourettes-driven political infatuation to assign blame for all our problems to the Democrats even though republicans were the root cause for them?
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georgecs
August 18, 2010 9:36 AM in reply to davis13
Oh, you have no idea. My brother told me - dead serious - that the 2004 election was an attempted coup because (and I'm quoting here) "the democrat goal is to unseat the president who was elected by the people. What is that but a coup?"
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castanea
August 18, 2010 10:09 AM in reply to georgecs
And you advocate "very nicely pointing out the inconsistencies and holes in their arguments" to such people? Good luck with that. Crazy don't change.
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*
August 18, 2010 10:37 AM in reply to georgecs
HINT: your brother is stating fact that they, republicans, aren't suppose to lose elections. That only happens if the Democrats register illegal aliens to vote and dead people are voting from beyond the grave.
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Cal Gal
August 18, 2010 9:47 AM in reply to davis13
Oh, yeah. Brother and sister-in-law definitely believe Obama is a Muslim and was not born in the US of A. I won't talk to him anymore (there are other issues, too).
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georgecs
August 18, 2010 9:55 AM in reply to Cal Gal
You know what shuts them up fast? Pointing out the rampant and foul hypocrisy of Republicans - Newt's diddling his intern while persecuting Clinton, the "family values" dudes loitering in men's room stalls, the anti gay preachers buying rent boys, and on and on. Ignore their clinton rantings and ask if they have any clear and obvious hypocrisy from a democrat. they got nothing...
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castanea
August 18, 2010 10:12 AM in reply to georgecs
Unfortunately, though, we live in a post-factual society. How else to account for the cognitive dissonance that radiates from rightwingers?
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AJM
August 18, 2010 11:43 AM in reply to castanea
This series is the most important discussion we are having. Reaching these people, if possible, would make the biggest change in our society.
Most of Fox News' audience is over 65 so there is some hope but how do we convince those who do watch that this is not reality?
If I took as factual all the allegations on Fox, I'd be panicked too.
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*
August 18, 2010 10:39 AM in reply to georgecs
And the standard rebuttal is...they aren't the President.
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lapinbrim
August 18, 2010 11:45 AM in reply to georgecs
I wish there were something that shuts them up. But from what I can see, nothing shuts them up. Trying to appeal to them, based on reason and logic is a waste of time. Unless sane people from the left, can somehow get sane people from the right to stand up to the loons on the right, we are in for some real trouble. These people are not interested in the good of the country. They are pathological narcissists. Newt makes Bill Clinton look like a choir-boy. He is a truly reptilian figure.
Sane and rational people in the country better start standing up to these purveyors of hatred.
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georgecs
August 18, 2010 3:35 PM in reply to lapinbrim
Referring to someone even as loathsome as Newt as "reptilian" only gets the right wingers hackles up and makes them feel like they're being denigrated by left wing snobs, which only reinforces and vindicates their hatred of all of us.
My only point, from the beginning (much as it's been mocked) is to try SOMETHING ELSE. Clearly, mocking these people, dismissing them and calling them stupid is NOT helping and is not doing us any good - except to feed some pathetic left wing superiority. Realize that these people are scared, and confused and yes, to a large degree cynically manipulated. find some common ground, get them to agree on something and to agree that you are not the enemy, because unless you personally walk them out of the land of crazy they will never find their way home.
Let's fact facts, being a snarky self-important smug superior asshole to these people may make you feel victorious but it is not going to win a single person back. And will only push them farther away.
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slb
August 19, 2010 4:22 AM in reply to georgecs
Newt Gingrich is not scared and confused. He is cynical and calculating. The same goes for Limbaugh and Beck and Coulter and most of the rest of that crowd. Those guys -- the politicians, the pundits, the public blowhards -- they deserve to be mocked, and not only that, I firmly believe that mocking them when they are ridiculous and self-contradictory is the best way to neutralize the poison they are spewing out into the public discourse.
When you are talking to relatives around the dinner table, yes, a little more gentle handling is probably called for. But in a public debate, I say let 'em have it with both barrels.
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ronik
August 18, 2010 10:02 AM in reply to davis13
Yup. My sister and brother-in-law are so far on the fringe, its nearly impossible to talk to them about any current issue - they're both active TeaPartyPatriots(TM) who have convinced themselves that god is on their side. I frequently post progressive articles to my fb page, so I know they're exposed to at least a little bit of reality.
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indybend
August 18, 2010 12:22 PM in reply to ronik
Don't count on them seeing your progressive posts - they probably hide your feed!
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ronik
August 20, 2010 11:41 AM in reply to indybend
The funny thing is, they haven't done that. They will sometimes comment on something I've posted.
My brother-in-law will almost always comment whenever I put something up about gay marriage.
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Jack of All Tirades
August 18, 2010 10:12 AM in reply to davis13
I've got a friend who's in love with Palin. It's one thing to think she's attractive, it's quite another to defend her politics. We also have a neighbor who watches Fox religiously. I go to great lengths to avoid her. Fox News is like a cult.
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*
August 18, 2010 10:41 AM in reply to Jack of All Tirades
They've been watching too many MILF porno movies on-line.
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August 18, 2010 11:27 AM in reply to *
There is no such thing as too many MILF videos. Attraction to Sarah Palin is more about the sickening Stockholm Syndrome effect of having been around too many high school popularity bitches.
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Jack of All Tirades
August 18, 2010 10:16 AM in reply to davis13
I've got a friend who's in love with Palin. It's one thing to think she's attractive, it's quite another to defend her politics. We also have a neighbor who watches Fox religiously. I go to great lengths to avoid her. Fox News is like a cult.
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expat46
August 18, 2010 11:50 AM in reply to davis13
I'm a tiny blue speck in a deep red state. I grew up listening to Paul Harvey's "The Rest of the Story". It was sad to hear Paul Harvey's politics become caustic towards the end of his career.
"The Rest of the Story" has now been replaced with "The Huckabee Report" on drive time radio. Now I find myself cursing and changing the radio station at noon and 5:00PM but most people out here just eat it up without any thought whatsoever.
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maggie33
August 18, 2010 12:43 PM in reply to davis13
My brother and most of my friends. My salvation are the handful of Democrats/Liberals that I've met working on Democratic fundraising and candidate election volunteer jobs. It has actually become hard to stay friends because we have so little in common now that they've fallen off the cliff of right wing crazy...one even donates heavily to Dick Armey and the Tea Party and orders Freedom Fries.
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farnsworth
August 18, 2010 1:12 PM in reply to davis13
My granddad fought the Nazis in Europe. And then in his declining days he would stay up late and watch Limbaugh.
He was a VERY smart man. But in this particular instance, something in his brain had switched off.
We didn't talk about politics.
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Kuyleh
August 18, 2010 3:17 PM in reply to davis13
I got told the other day by one that expecting them to know the facts of a situation before they get outraged and try to debate it is "insulting" and "elitist."
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slb
August 19, 2010 4:29 AM in reply to Kuyleh
See -- that's the sort of response that deserves ridicule. No amount of niceness and patient explaining is going to get past that kind of Alice-in-Wonderland logic.
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August 18, 2010 9:25 AM
Let's not forget my personal favourite from the immigration "debates" of the Ninties, when people were floating boats across the Gulf of Mexico, hoping to be picked up by Coast Guard. Then, he declared that the United States was under no obligation to accept "Zulus and other undesirables."
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Reece
August 18, 2010 9:31 AM
Don't get too excited people, I think you've misunderstood Buchanan. Pat Buchanan, who thinks we shouldn't have been involved in World War 2, is probably trying to keep people from besmirching Nazis by comparing them to Muslims.
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precisioncontrol
August 18, 2010 9:48 AM
Pat Buchanan is a lot of things -- mostly a nativist and an isolationist -- but two things he isn't are irrational and stupid. He wants his nativist, isolationist arguments to at least make sense, and Palin and Gingrich fail that test.
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Cal Gal
August 18, 2010 9:49 AM
Buchanan is just protecting his turf, like O'Lielly calling out Beck or Lameball occasionally. Uncle Pat wants to be the go-to Nazi-lover to keep his wallet fat.
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Screed
August 18, 2010 9:51 AM
Gingrich is a Chicken Hawk. He is prepared to fight Muslim hoards all over the world. From his library that only includes his books.
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tonigo
August 18, 2010 10:00 AM
This is cold comfort at best. It would be nice if supposedly sane Republicans like Condolezza Rice or Lindsey Graham would speak out forcefully agains the xenophobic crazies taking over their party. But they won't because the party will always come before the good of the country.
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August 18, 2010 11:30 AM in reply to tonigo
Don't look to Lindsey. First of all, he's not that bright, just gets talking points from his serfs. Second, he's clearly decided to throw his lot in with the Repeal the 14th Amendment crowd to defend his crush John McCain. He can't go appearing reasonable now.
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Asinistra
August 18, 2010 10:05 AM
Buchanan's well-documented bigotry notwithstanding, he's still the most astute political observer on TV...and the only Rightist anywhere with the capacity to laugh at himself.
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Powkat
August 18, 2010 10:11 AM in reply to Asinistra
True. A few years ago I met a former Nixon plumber whose take on Pat was, 'a great guy to drink with, but he's a screaming loon."
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Scheherazade
August 18, 2010 10:10 AM
... Hell has officially frozen over!
*gasp*
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the bearded crank
August 18, 2010 10:25 AM
Pat Buchanan did a lot more than just dabble in Nazi sympathy as this article suggests. He was also instrumental in Richard Nixon's Southern Strategy while he worked for him. You know if Buchanan thinks you went overboard, you've probably fallen off the face of the earth.
-Crank
www.thebeardedcrank.com
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*
August 18, 2010 10:47 AM in reply to the bearded crank
He is the modern day version of Cerberus guarding the gates to the surreal landscape of political folly and foolishness.
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Tim
August 19, 2010 2:33 AM in reply to the bearded crank
I think, Bucky Buchanon recently wrote a book on how WWII wasn't the Nazi's or Hitler's fault.
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davis13
August 18, 2010 10:25 AM
"we live in a post-factual society"
Seemed Obama had the right idea during the election. Whatever the goofy topic was he knew he had to immediately call the liars out and state the truth. You don't let the media turn it into the 'outrage of the hour' for electoral purposes. The administration has been trying to manage the message, so to speak. Stop trying to be cute and stab the swift boaters in the eye. (metaphorically)
To my GOP 'friends': You know when you've gone too far?
When Pat Pat Buchanan is the voice of reason.
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AJM
August 18, 2010 11:49 AM in reply to davis13
I've wondered if Obama didn't respond as swiftly as he often does to the Cordoba Center because of the accusations that he is a Muslim. It is a politically tricky situation for him and he may have hoped that he could avoid it, somewhat the way he tries to stay above the fray on racism.
Bush, who didn't have those concerns, came down hard on Islamophobia from the beginning.
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expat46
August 18, 2010 11:55 AM in reply to AJM
word
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chard
August 18, 2010 10:28 AM
I hate to give Buchanan any cred, but he's not always wrong. His opposition to NAFTA comes to mind.
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*
August 18, 2010 10:51 AM in reply to chard
Yes! Too bad no one listened!
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Matt Jones
August 18, 2010 10:37 AM
Being called out for being a douchebag by Buchanan is like showing up to an intervention where Ozzy, Keith Richards and Rick James tell you you're doing too many drugs and partying too much...
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It's Pat
August 18, 2010 10:45 AM in reply to Matt Jones
+1!
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windowpane
August 18, 2010 10:39 AM
The only time a Nazi comparison is valid in American politics is when Pat Buchanan is the one being compared.
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August 18, 2010 10:44 AM
Read closer. Pat's upset because Gingrich slandered his beloved Nazis by comparing them to inferior mud people.
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lawschooldropout
August 18, 2010 10:47 AM
I am having a bit of difficulty understanding the political relevance of the supposed “Ground Zero Mosque.” For an issue to be politically relevant the issue should at the very least be an issue that is capable of redress by government action. If the government has no power to act on a matter, the issue is wholly irrelevant as a political issue and at that point only serves a rhetorical function.
Our national government is a limited government. Any act of government must be authorized by the U.S. Constitution. At the very least, there must be a legitimate government purpose for any governmental act. Those opposed have remained silent on what authority or power government has over where religious institutions may build. Additionally, those in opposition have yet to present or address what governmental purpose would be advanced by preventing or obstructing the construction of any Mosque regardless of whether the building were near or at any particular location of significance.
Similarly, the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution limits the states power by both forbidding unequal application of the law and incorporating First Amendment protections against burdening the Free Exercise of religion. Granted, free exercise may be burdened by laws of general applicability, but for a law to be generally applicable it must at the very least have a secular purpose. Even if opponents of the project were able to overcome the express non-secular purpose of the opposition, such a law targeting a particular religion or faith would be neither generally applicable or an equal application of the law.
It is clear that many people are opposed to the idea of Manhattan Muslims building a community center in their community and those persons are within their rights to approve or disapprove of that decision. However, opposition to the project is now being presented as grounds to support one political party over the other as if the government of the national or states has any power to prevent the project from moving forward.
If this is to be a “political issue” should those opposing the project not be required to explain or offer a “political solution?” Should we not be asking how this issue would be resolved differently by electing only politicians who oppose the project rather than those with no position or in favor of the project? Should we not ask how a candidates position on this matter is of any more significant consequence than that candidates position on which direct toilet paper should roll?
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AJM
August 18, 2010 11:55 AM in reply to lawschooldropout
This is the rational position. The emotional position is that big daddy government should at least show that they understand anything that bothers me and try to do something about it.
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lawschooldropout
August 18, 2010 1:36 PM in reply to AJM
I agree with both of you. The distinction to me on this issue versus others is that most of the time the disagreement is at least within the jurisdiction of the government, e.g. tax rate, social spending, war. Government can actually do something about taxes, welfare and war. But this issue is more than just an illogical position, it is completely beyond the scope of government. This is a human interest issue, a sociology issue, but it has nothing to do with politics, i.e. law and policy. In the context of politics it is pure propaganda easily exposed should a single journalist simply ask one of these people what they plan to do about it.
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AJM
August 18, 2010 5:49 PM in reply to lawschooldropout
What the Tea Party folks want is for government leaders to demonize those wishing to build the center despite their constitutional and moral right to do so and then to demonize any one who stands up for the Constitution and/or points out that it is wrong to hold the Muslim religion responsible for the actions of a fringe group.]
It is reassuring that polling in N.Y. states shows that the citizen in that state to recognize that the Constitution guarantees the right to build the mosque even though most would prefer that it be built somewhere else.
This is no win situation for those building the Cordoba center -- they can appear 'insensitive' or they can acquiesce in the idea that they bear collective responsibility for the actions of Osama.
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slb
August 19, 2010 5:30 AM in reply to lawschooldropout
Think of this whole flap as being like a peacock's display of feathers. The whole point of it is to say, "I'm the biggest, baddest guy around." The peacock's display is to attract a mate. The purpose of this whole flap is to stoke anger in the conservative base and get them to the polls on election day. No, not that they can do anything at the polls about this particular issue, but in order to crush the people who aren't sympathetic to rabid nativism.
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farnsworth
August 18, 2010 1:23 PM in reply to lawschooldropout
Um, you do realize you are talking about facts and reason and logic WRT fRight Wing craziness, don't you?
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georgecs
August 18, 2010 3:42 PM in reply to lawschooldropout
I'm sure no one here remembers the 1988 presidential election when one of the big issues was the pledge of allegiance. that's right - bush's people pushed the fucking pledge of allegiance as an issue and whether or not dukakis (is that really an american name?) knew it -- after all we never HEARD him say it?! Hmm... suspect
You know what? Dukakis has video tape of Bush flubbing the fucking PoA and he decided not to beat Bush over the head with it. HUGE HUGE MISTAKE...
think how much different things might be today if Dukakis had a pair...
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It's Pat
August 18, 2010 10:50 AM
While Pat is right on this, I question his motivation in vocalizing his opposition to Vewts statement. I'm wondering if Pat sees his precious Palin's pathway to the presidency threatened by Newt.
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Ray Hicks
August 18, 2010 1:16 PM in reply to It's Pat
That's a good call as he has been one of her most strident cheerleaders, and always makes subtle remarks in support on TV, since her nomination. The internet rumors of her support for him in 2000, (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1021344/was_sarah_palin_a_buchanannite_did.html?cat=75)
still resonate, and Buchanan has called her pre-Presidential campaign, as he believes she is truly running, as no less than "brilliant."
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Ugg the Repug
August 18, 2010 5:32 PM in reply to It's Pat
Uuuuuh. Pat smartwalksupright person. Ugg like.
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davis13
August 18, 2010 11:03 AM
"I am having a bit of difficulty understanding the political relevance of the supposed “Ground Zero Mosque.”
It isn't relevant to sane people. It's just the new gays, guns n' god outrage topic of the hour for the Atwater acolytes.
Islam sends the self-righteous-o-meter off the scale for some of the GOP base. You feed rabid attack dogs red meat. And it works. However, the strategy had almost played out it's usefulness. They needed a new enemy to scare the shit out of the US voters and the Muslims are apparently the current choice.
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Kaneblues
August 18, 2010 11:04 AM
Think back to the 2008 Republican presidential debates where each of the candidates were trying to out-crazy the other by arguing that they were more extreme than their opponents.
Since January 2009, republicans have continued that public debate, moving themselves and their party further from the center all in the attempt to appeal to the lunatic fringe.
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Stephen from Minneapolis
August 18, 2010 11:18 AM in reply to Kaneblues
true
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davis13
August 18, 2010 11:22 AM in reply to Kaneblues
Yeah... I remember that collection of freaks. That was when they tried to outdo each other on the subject of torture. McCain flip-flopped on torture of all things. It was the one issue he could be counted on to be realistic about.
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midnight rambler
August 18, 2010 1:59 PM in reply to Kaneblues
The problem is that since then, the lunatic fringe has become the lunatic mainstream.
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Ray Hicks
August 18, 2010 7:28 PM in reply to Kaneblues
The 'Evolution' question was the best...still laughing at them looking at each other and slowly raising their hands. It was like someone had asked 'have any of you had an STD at any time of your lives?'
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labman57
August 18, 2010 11:27 AM
Gingrich hopes to stir up irrational fear and hatred in the nation and ride it like a wave into the election season.
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slb
August 19, 2010 5:33 AM in reply to labman57
Bingo. You put it much better than I did.
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Sun Tzu
August 18, 2010 11:30 AM
Right wngers were gung ho about going to war in Iraq to liberate and bring democracy to Iraqi Muslims. After spending 1 trillion dollars and sacrificing over 4000 Americans lives to bring Democracy and freedom to those Muslims, the same right wingers want to deny America Muslims the religious freedom to build a Mosque in Manhattan, or Murfreesbororo , TN or Wisconsin or California etc. etc.
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sean
August 18, 2010 11:31 AM
All Bat Puchanan aside, I just can't believe I voluntarily watched a 'Mourning Joe' clip.
Garlic and Holy Water, stat!
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nick
August 18, 2010 11:32 AM
It makes one wounder about the intelligence of some of these Ditto Heads and TEABAGGERS when they take the word of a Drug Abusing Junkie as gospel
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fisconsolib
August 18, 2010 11:38 AM
I seem to recall that when W was in office he went out of his way to disconnect 9/11 from Muslims and Islam. I rather admired that even though I suspected it had much more to do with his ties to the House of Saud than with anything like rational thinking.
Wouldn't it be nice if he and Condo Rice and Gen. Powell and the other three remaining sane Republicans took a stand against all of the GZM demagoguing?
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farnsworth
August 18, 2010 1:27 PM in reply to fisconsolib
Rice is still fighting the Soviets. She has no clue that it is no longer 1975, when they were preparing for the war with the USSR that was sure to come in the early 80s.
So I kinda gotta say, "Whoa, wait a minute!" when anyone calls her sane.
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Altbob
August 18, 2010 11:47 AM
And Pay ought to know a Nazi, since he is one :)
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August 18, 2010 11:48 AM
Buchanan is disgusting, but he isn't phony. Gingrich is phony.
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Pete Bilderback
August 18, 2010 11:48 AM
Isn't this just another instance of Buchanan defending his National Socialist Party and beloved Führer? I mean, how dare Gingrich compare these dirty blooded Arabs to Buchanan's Aryan Supermen?
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Metzengerstein
August 18, 2010 12:03 PM
The thing is, Pat Buchanan has never had that much of a problem with Muslims. In fact, he has sort of taken their side over the years. This probably isn't because of any tolerant attitude; it is more likely a consequence of his deep and obsessive hatred of Jews. You know, the enemy of my enemy is my friend (I'm not necessarily saying all Muslims are enemies of all Jews, just that it's Pat's mindset).
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Mary Alice
August 18, 2010 3:33 PM in reply to Metzengerstein
I think this is absolutely the reason for Pat's dissing Gingrich. I first thought that Pat, devout Catholic that he is, was giving some thought for his mortal soul with all the horribly hateful and prejudicial remarks he has made about racial and ethnic groups in the past. No. It's just a matter of hating one group more than another. Excellent comment!
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Ironcomments
August 18, 2010 1:42 PM
American conservatism = Christian fascism
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sTiVo
August 18, 2010 3:44 PM
Simple answers to simple questions:
Buchanan's a paleocon, Gingrich is a neocon. We may not like either one but they don't like each other either. Buchanan opposed the Iraq War, Gingrich, I presume, favored it although Gingrich kind of dropped out of the limelight in those years.
There is nothing the least bit surprising about this.
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Diomedes
August 18, 2010 4:09 PM
I assume this is an issue that engages so many people because it is a pseudo-moral issue -- anyone can have strong positive or negative feelings about whether they think it's 'right' to have a so-called 'mosque' built near so-called 'Ground Zero' without knowing anything at all about anything. It's simply a way of expressing how anti-Muslim you happen to be feeling, isn't it?
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pstamler
August 18, 2010 4:21 PM
Buchanan says Naziism is irrelevant to this discussion. Well, he should know.
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Terry
August 18, 2010 4:45 PM
Pat's best article ever was when he wrote a piece in 2004 in some conservative mag (NR?) arguing FOR George W Bush to win reelection.
His reason: He wanted there to be no doubt in the history books what a colossal cluster invading Iraq while poorly invading Afghanistan was. He also mentioned that the blame for the impending financial crash should be pinned on Bush, too.
Wow, Pat. Good stuff. Saved John Kerry a lifetime of scapegoatery.
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SkeeterVT
August 18, 2010 6:13 PM
This is indeed a surprise. I'd never have thought that Newt Gingrich would cross the line from conservative to neofascist. But he's done it -- twice.
Not only has Gingrich called for the outright denial of Muslims' First Amendment constitutional right to freedom of worship by opposing the planned mosque and Islamic center on private, Muslim-owned property near Ground Zero, but he's also attacked Federal Judge Vaughn Walker's courageous decison declaring California's anti-gay Proposition 8 unconstitutional under the Fourteenth Amendment and adamantly insisting that two people who love one another cannot marry solely because they are of the same gender.
He's also joined the racist anti-Latino crusade by nativists to alter or repeal the Fourteenth Amendment to deny U.S. citizenship to the American-born children of illegal immigrants.
That's very revealing of what kind of husband and father Newt Gingrich is that he would make such statements. I can only wonder what his ex-wives, Jackie Battley and Marianne Ginther (both of whom he divorced after having extramarital affairs) and his openly lesbian daughter, Candace Gingrich, think of him now.
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ejg3
August 18, 2010 7:42 PM
I guess there's limited room in both the cuckoo's nest and loon lagoon.
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